What Explains Extreme Body Hair/beard But MPB?

[mrchibbs]

I've seen multiple anecdotes online in other forums like this of vegans getting a lot of body hair, sometimes including balding as well. Makes me think about how veganism has certain characteristics that may promote and make someone histapenic.

High copper intake as most vegan foods can be pretty high in copper, low protein (amino acids are needed to utilize minerals like copper properly), low zinc bioavailability, leading to copper build up and possible other heavy metals building up. Higher copper leading to excessive degradation of histamine and all the issues that come with very

To add personal experience, I used to take 50mg zinc every night for years before I found Peat, never ever grew body hair in any significant capacity except a little bit on the forearms and lower legs until I stopped taking it when I got here. Zinc and B3 raise progesterone and are used in decently high doses for histapenia, so its basically like taking progesterone.

@redsun I found your comments very interesting, therefore I'm resuscitating this thread.

Your personal experience matches mine. I took zinc/b6/b3 for about 2 years after a girl at my college introduced me to orthomolecular medicine. At that point in my life (23-24) I had developed no body hair at all, and had experienced a massive shed of hair loss from stress at 21-22. During the 2 years I took zinc, I continued not getting any body hair, despite the fact that I was 90% vegan.

My head hair also stabilized greatly and even regrew some (some areas had already become fibrotic so regrowth wasn't strong there). After a couple years of intense stress, my face became a lot more youthful as well, I got routinely mistaken for a 16-17 year old. I think the zinc and the b-vitamins must have increased my synthesis of progesterone greatly. I had a pretty good year and a half of health/life.

Eventually, my health crashed from overwork, mold exposure and wasting from veganism/lack of protein. I've spent the past 2+ years recovering since. During this period I've gained a massive amount of body hair all of sudden, from the ages of 26-28. (Still not the hairiest guy around, but I have a decent amount all around my chest, on my thighs, and on my lower back.)

It's definitely the constantly elevated cortisol/stress leading to overproduction of DHEA from the adrenals. It's seen in women too, hirsutism occurs during stress/PCOS. I also have a little acne, along with recurring MPB. (acne, hirsutism, alopecia, 3 main symptoms of PCOS/MPB)

I remember @haidut mentioning how cortisol activates the peripheral production of androgens during #4 Bioenergetic News podcast with Danny Roddy. Hopefully he can clarify this for us. But clearly, stress hormones elevated = adrenals produce androgens = virilization and unwanted hair growth.

 

[Murtaza]

@redsun I found your comments very interesting, therefore I'm resuscitating this thread.

Your personal experience matches mine. I took zinc/b6/b3 for about 2 years after a girl at my college introduced me to orthomolecular medicine. At that point in my life (23-24) I had developed no body hair at all, and had experienced a massive shed of hair loss from stress at 21-22. During the 2 years I took zinc, I continued not getting any body hair, despite the fact that I was 90% vegan.

My head hair also stabilized greatly and even regrew some (some areas had already become fibrotic so regrowth wasn't strong there). After a couple years of intense stress, my face became a lot more youthful as well, I got routinely mistaken for a 16-17 year old. I think the zinc and the b-vitamins must have increased my synthesis of progesterone greatly. I had a pretty good year and a half of health/life.

Eventually, my health crashed from overwork, mold exposure and wasting from veganism/lack of protein. I've spent the past 2+ years recovering since. During this period I've gained a massive amount of body hair all of sudden, from the ages of 26-28. (Still not the hairiest guy around, but I have a decent amount all around my chest, on my thighs, and on my lower back.)

It's definitely the constantly elevated cortisol/stress leading to overproduction of DHEA from the adrenals. It's seen in women too, hirsutism occurs during stress/PCOS. I also have a little acne, along with recurring MPB. (acne, hirsutism, alopecia, 3 main symptoms of PCOS/MPB)

I remember @haidut mentioning how cortisol activates the peripheral production of androgens during #4 Bioenergetic News podcast with Danny Roddy. Hopefully he can clarify this for us. But clearly, stress hormones elevated = adrenals produce androgens = virilization and unwanted hair growth.

ive always been way more hairy than my peers. talk about hair on arms, shoulder, neck etc. i too started to lose hair when i was 19. Adrenal hyperactivity mus be stopped/slowed down before there is any hope for regrowth

 

[mrchibbs]

ive always been way more hairy than my peers. talk about hair on arms, shoulder, neck etc. i too started to lose hair when i was 19. Adrenal hyperactivity mus be stopped/slowed down before there is any hope for regrowth

Absolutely, but to do that, it often takes courage to identify the sources of stress/anguish in your life.
Ray has said that pregnenolone stops the overactive arenals, and thyroid function also needs to be restored, but a lot of the problem lies in the psychological stressors, because for most of us, it's the main thing keeping us sick since it's chronic and 24/7 in many people. Emotions like guilt, shame, frustration etc feed a constant state of stress hormones and are the #1 problem to me. It's not entirely the fault of the individual, the society is toxic. Then if you add lack of sunshine, EMF exposure, and PUFAs, it's a cocktail of sadness and death. Sometimes I feel like thyroid supplementation must be continued for years and years, while you work on improving your life enough so that you stop needing it.

 

[Murtaza]

Absolutely, but to do that, it often takes courage to identify the sources of stress/anguish in your life.
Ray has said that pregnenolone stops the overactive arenals, and thyroid function also needs to be restored, but a lot of the problem lies in the psychological stressors, because for most of us, it's the main thing keeping us sick since it's chronic and 24/7 in many people. Emotions like guilt, shame, frustration etc feed a constant state of stress hormones and are the #1 problem to me. It's not entirely the fault of the individual, the society is toxic. Then if you add lack of sunshine, EMF exposure, and PUFAs, it's a cocktail of sadness and death. Sometimes I feel like thyroid supplementation must be continued for years and years, while you work on improving your life enough so that you stop needing it.

thats interesting what you said about preg. yes youre right its the environment we live in is what causes adrenal system to kick in. combine that with low thyroid and FAO activity and youre in a cycle thats pretty tough to break out of

 

[mrchibbs]

thats interesting what you said about preg. yes youre right its the environment we live in is what causes adrenal system to kick in. combine that with low thyroid and FAO activity and youre in a cycle thats pretty tough to break out of

Yes it's not easy. It takes some courage to actively change our environment and our mental perspective. It's hard but rewarding. See Ray's quote on pregnenolone and overactive adrenal here: Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki (Virilization)

 

[redsun]

@redsun I found your comments very interesting, therefore I'm resuscitating this thread.

Your personal experience matches mine. I took zinc/b6/b3 for about 2 years after a girl at my college introduced me to orthomolecular medicine. At that point in my life (23-24) I had developed no body hair at all, and had experienced a massive shed of hair loss from stress at 21-22. During the 2 years I took zinc, I continued not getting any body hair, despite the fact that I was 90% vegan.

My head hair also stabilized greatly and even regrew some (some areas had already become fibrotic so regrowth wasn't strong there). After a couple years of intense stress, my face became a lot more youthful as well, I got routinely mistaken for a 16-17 year old. I think the zinc and the b-vitamins must have increased my synthesis of progesterone greatly. I had a pretty good year and a half of health/life.

Eventually, my health crashed from overwork, mold exposure and wasting from veganism/lack of protein. I've spent the past 2+ years recovering since. During this period I've gained a massive amount of body hair all of sudden, from the ages of 26-28. (Still not the hairiest guy around, but I have a decent amount all around my chest, on my thighs, and on my lower back.)

It's definitely the constantly elevated cortisol/stress leading to overproduction of DHEA from the adrenals. It's seen in women too, hirsutism occurs during stress/PCOS. I also have a little acne, along with recurring MPB. (acne, hirsutism, alopecia, 3 main symptoms of PCOS/MPB)

I remember @haidut mentioning how cortisol activates the peripheral production of androgens during #4 Bioenergetic News podcast with Danny Roddy. Hopefully he can clarify this for us. But clearly, stress hormones elevated = adrenals produce androgens = virilization and unwanted hair growth.

I am not sure what zinc does exactly but my guess is part of its main mechanisms is helping gonadal function and steroid hormones. The fact that zinc may lower DHT is already known but it is also needed for a lot of steroid hormones. But I dont think it was a good thing in the end the high dose zinc I have taken. Really mentally numbs me out and it can do that through multiple mechanisms but I think the NMDA blockade is probably behind that numbness.

Zinc may act like a giant wall that staves off the consequences of excessive stress partly through preventing you from feeling much, because it blocks NMDA, reduces dopamine to noradrenaline conversion, which indirectly keeps metabolism down because the sympathetic nervous system needs noradrenaline to work so you get stuck in a way in the parasympathetic state.

 

[mrchibbs]

I am not sure what zinc does exactly but my guess is part of its main mechanisms is helping gonadal function and steroid hormones. The fact that zinc may lower DHT is already known but it is also needed for a lot of steroid hormones. But I dont think it was a good thing in the end the high dose zinc I have taken. Really mentally numbs me out and it can do that through multiple mechanisms but I think the NMDA blockade is probably behind that numbness.

Zinc may act like a giant wall that staves off the consequences of excessive stress partly through preventing you from feeling much, because it blocks NMDA, reduces dopamine to noradrenaline conversion, which indirectly keeps metabolism down because the sympathetic nervous system needs noradrenaline to work so you get stuck in a way in the parasympathetic state.

Of course, excessive zinc is definitely not a good plan, as I think it can suppress sexual/brain function if the levels remain elevated, but I was just pointing out that I experienced the same things you did from zinc supplementation (i.e. no body hair).

Anecdotally and from the research, it seems clear that the zinc/copper balance is crucial, and some people on the forum have mentioned that raising copper reversed the anti-libido effects of too much zinc, which make it clear that liver/oysters/cocoa/shellfish is absolutely crucial.

I have also experienced lack of feeling/extremely low dopamine which lasted for years (I think this state of things necessarily means that serotonin is elevated). The difficult aspects are that once you reverse this state, it can come about with a sudden realization of lost time, because the energy/drive to do things also brings back a sudden emotional charge. I think liver/oysters, from the vitamin A, copper/zinc, selenium, etc. provides the necessary elements to fully restore metabolism (along with thyroid) and steroid hormone production, and this can really shock you out of an ''hibernation''/low metabolism serotonergic state.

There is a reason why Ray insists on oysters, the balance of copper/zinc is crucial. I think in an healthy person, low but regular amounts of zinc/copper are all that is needed, because it isn't wasted in a stress cascade. Stress/excessive masturbation/vegan or low-protein diets all deplete zinc thoroughly, which can account for the benefits of short-term supplementation. I did it for more than a year, because it was a common recommendation of orthomolecular medicine. I did quite high doses too. My libido was really, really low, but I looked terribly youthful and healthy, and no body hair in sight.

 

[redsun]

Of course, excessive zinc is definitely not a good plan, as I think it can suppress sexual/brain function if the levels remain elevated, but I was just pointing out that I experienced the same things you did from zinc supplementation (i.e. no body hair).

Anecdotally and from the research, it seems clear that the zinc/copper balance is crucial, and some people on the forum have mentioned that raising copper reversed the anti-libido effects of too much zinc, which make it clear that liver/oysters/cocoa/shellfish is absolutely crucial.

I have also experienced lack of feeling/extremely low dopamine which lasted for years (I think this state of things necessarily means that serotonin is elevated). The difficult aspects are that once you reverse this state, it can come about with a sudden realization of lost time, because the energy/drive to do things also brings back a sudden emotional charge. I think liver/oysters, from the vitamin A, copper/zinc, selenium, etc. provides the necessary elements to fully restore metabolism (along with thyroid) and steroid hormone production, and this can really shock you out of an ''hibernation''/low metabolism serotonergic state.

There is a reason why Ray insists on oysters, the balance of copper/zinc is crucial. I think in an healthy person, low but regular amounts of zinc/copper are all that is needed, because it isn't wasted in a stress cascade. Stress/excessive masturbation/vegan or low-protein diets all deplete zinc thoroughly, which can account for the benefits of short-term supplementation. I did it for more than a year, because it was a common recommendation of orthomolecular medicine. I did quite high doses too. My libido was really, really low, but I looked terribly youthful and healthy, and no body hair in sight.

Yeh it seems to be very youth-promoting. Took zinc at high dose for years and somehow my sexual function was not compromised. I think the fact that I was in my teens helped prevent that luckily.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yeh it seems to be very youth-promoting. Took zinc at high dose for years and somehow my sexual function was not compromised. I think the fact that I was in my teens helped prevent that luckily.

Ideally, being able to eat clean shellfish and oysters a couple times a week is probably one of the best things possible to maintain the metabolism.
There is a reason why Ray talks about oysters so much, I wish I would have had them as a teenager, I was doing well, but always lowish energy
and susceptible to acne, it's pretty obvious I needed more zinc/copper.

 

[Hitchens]

It suggests balding is propitiated by the calcification in androgenic receptors of the scalp where DHT is OVER exposed to the hair follicle

 

[mrchibbs]

It suggests balding is propitiated by the calcification in androgenic receptors of the scalp where DHT is OVER exposed to the hair follicle

No offence, but there is zero evidence of this whatsoever.

 

[opethfeldt]

I really do think it's as simple as the gonads producing less T and then the adrenals take over as a compensation mechanism. Elevated estrogen is probably involved in this stimulation of the adrenal glands. Peat has talked about this. Men with high test and DHT with low stress hormones don't seem to get male pattern baldness, despite serum DHT being high. Most men with this issue seem to have low ish T, high DHT and obviously elevated DHEA-S as well. This would explain why some men do get regrowth when they improve their health. The gonads working well are an important part of good health.

I think the takeaway here is that DHT isn't bad, provided you're getting it mostly from T and not DHEA.

 

[mrchibbs]

I really do think it's as simple as the gonads producing less T and then the adrenals take over as a compensation mechanism. Elevated estrogen is probably involved in this stimulation of the adrenal glands. Peat has talked about this. Men with high test and DHT with low stress hormones don't seem to get male pattern baldness, despite serum DHT being high. Most men with this issue seem to have low ish T, high DHT and obviously elevated DHEA-S as well. This would explain why some men do get regrowth when they improve their health. The gonads working well are an important part of good health.

I think the takeaway here is that DHT isn't bad, provided you're getting it mostly from T and not DHEA.

100% agree. It's chronic stress leading to adaptive decline of the thyroid, and then of energetically demanding functions like higher intelligence, spermatogenesis, scalp hair etc. Since thyroid is low progesterone can't be produced adequately, estrogen rises and a state of estrogen dominance sets in. It used to be strictly associated with PCOS, but recent research like that of Sanke et al. (2016) showed that basically men with MPB are the same as women with PCOS. Both sexes get the same symptoms, to varying degrees: acne, hirsutism, and alopecia. Some of this women with serious PCOS have hardcore MPB like men do, with exactly the same pattern.

The difference is they're often treated with progestins like cyproterone acetate or spironolactone without the concerns male have for their libido. It's progesterone deficiency. Progesterone is needed for the genesis of Testosterone/DHT. And as you've said, Ray and Danny have cited the same paper (Dinkoff, 1995 I think) regarding how estrogen drives the adrenal glands to overproduce adrenals, leading to virilization of tissues, and since the skin has a lot of androgen receptors, the body hair turns dark every where in weird places. I really do think body hair isn't a particularly good sign of health, especially if it grows rapidly during stress.

 

[Lucas]

100% agree. It's chronic stress leading to adaptive decline of the thyroid, and then of energetically demanding functions like higher intelligence, spermatogenesis, scalp hair etc. Since thyroid is low progesterone can't be produced adequately, estrogen rises and a state of estrogen dominance sets in. It used to be strictly associated with PCOS, but recent research like that of Sanke et al. (2016) showed that basically men with MPB are the same as women with PCOS. Both sexes get the same symptoms, to varying degrees: acne, hirsutism, and alopecia. Some of this women with serious PCOS have hardcore MPB like men do, with exactly the same pattern.

The difference is they're often treated with progestins like cyproterone acetate or spironolactone without the concerns male have for their libido. It's progesterone deficiency. Progesterone is needed for the genesis of Testosterone/DHT. And as you've said, Ray and Danny have cited the same paper (Dinkoff, 1995 I think) regarding how estrogen drives the adrenal glands to overproduce adrenals, leading to virilization of tissues, and since the skin has a lot of androgen receptors, the body hair turns dark every where in weird places. I really do think body hair isn't a particularly good sign of health, especially if it grows rapidly during stress.

The problem is how to treat low thyroid. I am on my second day of NDT 1/4 of grain and I am freazing cold using socks when is 25 celsius outside.
Why every time I try Thyroid I fell worse even drinking lot of milk and meat?

 

[thomas00]

Have you tried just using t3 by itself?

which NDT product are you using? Most are junk.

 

[Lucas]

Have you tried just using t3 by itself?

which NDT product are you using? Most are junk.

T3 make me cold.
Tyromix make me cold too.
I am taking TR-TMAN from Thailand.

 

[thomas00]

how much t3 did you take?

 

[Lucas]

how much t3 did you take?

Even 5 mcg of T3 I get cold.
I reality every type of Thyroid medication make me worse.
I need thyroid to stop my hair loss and to cure my stiff knee, but I cant tolerate it. It is so Sad to wake up always at 35.9 celsius, have a TSH of 6, cholesterol of 300 eating only 2 eggs a day and a ferritin of 300 too.
I realy think that if I fix these things my hair will get better.

 

[Hans]

I am not sure what zinc does exactly but my guess is part of its main mechanisms is helping gonadal function and steroid hormones. The fact that zinc may lower DHT is already known but it is also needed for a lot of steroid hormones. But I dont think it was a good thing in the end the high dose zinc I have taken. Really mentally numbs me out and it can do that through multiple mechanisms but I think the NMDA blockade is probably behind that numbness.

Zinc may act like a giant wall that staves off the consequences of excessive stress partly through preventing you from feeling much, because it blocks NMDA, reduces dopamine to noradrenaline conversion, which indirectly keeps metabolism down because the sympathetic nervous system needs noradrenaline to work so you get stuck in a way in the parasympathetic state.

I think the main reason why zinc makes you feel more anhedonic is because it antagonizes the dorsal raphe (DR) nucleus in the brain by acting on the 5-HT1A. The DR nucleus promotes mesolimbic dopamine, so lowering DR serotonin lowers mesolimbic dopamine, thus creating a state of anhedonia. This is also how zinc mostly lowers libido.
I don't think it's through the NMDA receptor because glutamate acts on the locus coeruleus (LC) and the DR nucleus to release noradrenaline and serotonin. Blocking NMDA can lower excess activation, but glutamate can still act through its other receptors, which can then still sufficiently stimulate the LC and DR.

 

[mrchibbs]

The problem is how to treat low thyroid. I am on my second day of NDT 1/4 of grain and I am freazing cold using socks when is 25 celsius outside.
Why every time I try Thyroid I fell worse even drinking lot of milk and meat?

Taking thyroid doesn’t fix the thyroid function. Its a bandaid while you work on your health.

And personally it took me a long time before I got increases in temperature. 2 days is nothing, it builds into your system gradually, you need to start with a low dose and increase gradually. Also, you need to eat a lot of food with your thyroid supplements, and never rake too much t3 at once, just 2-3mg because as I’m sure you know a too large dose of t3 gets converted to rt3