What Elevated Serotonin Actually Feels Like

[metabolizm]

I've been taking an SSRI (Citalopram) for the last two weeks, in a desperate effort to eliminate severe anxiety. The side effects have been so unpleasant that I'm going to stop now - I've seen sense. I suppose one benefit of this experiment is that it has given me a window into what it feels like when you medically elevate your serotonin levels. Short answer: it does not feel good.

What it felt like: manic energy, loose & smelly stools, constant sweating and body odour, worsening of varicocele, muscle tension, constant need to clench my jaw and grind my teeth, heightened anxiety, heightened aggression, hot flushes, worsened hay fever (increased histamine).

I think that's about it. It's been awful. There have been no positives. This was all on a low dose of the drug. These drugs do seem to work for some people: I don't deny that, and I really hoped they would work for me. It's possible that the side effects would have eased off eventually. But it seems clear you have to do some damage before you get there. In fact, that's one theory about the SSRI mechanism: the brain irritation they cause is what brings about the therapeutic response. No thanks. Plus, I'm constantly hearing about the nightmare of coming off them, and that was on the back of my mind.

The energy spike was unexpected, and I would be interested to hear an explanation of how that connects to serotonergic activity. (I should clarify, it was not at all a good energy. It was what I imagine bad, adulterated cocaine would feel like.)

I'm going to try Propranolol now. It seems a lot safer, and Ray himself has actually recommended it for immediate relief from anxiety.

 

[Korven]

Just curious, have you ever approached your anxiety from an emotional/spiritual point of view?

I've noticed on this forum that people tend to emphasize the mechanical, physiological side of things when it comes to health (I need to take substance X to fix problem Y), but not bring up the other side of the coin so much. I believe anxiety is a two-way street where gut irritation, inflammation, nutritional deficiencies certainly can cause anxious feelings and uneasiness - vice versa by focusing your conscious attention on negative, anxious thoughts, trying to resist them or make them go away, can invoke a stress response with heightened adrenalin/cortisol and chronic inflammation which feeds this viscous cycle.

I'm speaking from personal experience as I was pretty much crippled from severe anxiety/OCD for years and was walking around in a constant dream like state of derealization/depersonalization. I thought my life was pretty much over because I was so ****88.

No supplement or food got me out of that state (though I now realize that eating starch, grains, fiber probably made it worse). Things slowly improved when I started developing a healthier relationship with my own thoughts and feelings, realized that we're much better off when we're present here and now and not stuck in our heads thinking about things + letting go of the need to control things.

Hope you get better soon! :)

 

[metabolizm]

Just curious, have you ever approached your anxiety from an emotional/spiritual point of view?

Absolutely. I've tried it all! I do agree with you that this emphasis is just as important as the physiological/mechanical. Thank you @Korven

 

[Nokoni]

Allithiamine would definitely be worth a try. It's just a lipid soluble form of vitamin B-1, and in higher doses it acts as a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor, so it raises the levels of CO2. It's quite calming.

 

[inthedark]

Just curious, have you ever approached your anxiety from an emotional/spiritual point of view?

I've noticed on this forum that people tend to emphasize the mechanical, physiological side of things when it comes to health (I need to take substance X to fix problem Y), but not bring up the other side of the coin so much. I believe anxiety is a two-way street where gut irritation, inflammation, nutritional deficiencies certainly can cause anxious feelings and uneasiness - vice versa by focusing your conscious attention on negative, anxious thoughts, trying to resist them or make them go away, can invoke a stress response with heightened adrenalin/cortisol and chronic inflammation which feeds this viscous cycle.

I'm speaking from personal experience as I was pretty much crippled from severe anxiety/OCD for years and was walking around in a constant dream like state of derealization/depersonalization. I thought my life was pretty much over because I was so ****88.

No supplement or food got me out of that state (though I now realize that eating starch, grains, fiber probably made it worse). Things slowly improved when I started developing a healthier relationship with my own thoughts and feelings, realized that we're much better off when we're present here and now and not stuck in our heads thinking about things + letting go of the need to control things.

Hope you get better soon! :)

THIS

 

[gaze]

yep. I would explain it as neurotic thoughts with body odor.

 

[zarrin77]

Just my personal experience: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is the only type that helped for my social anxiety, and it also seems to get the best results in research from what I’ve seen. If you haven’t tried it, look into it.

 

[golder]

Allithiamine would definitely be worth a try. It's just a lipid soluble form of vitamin B-1, and in higher doses it acts as a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor, so it raises the levels of CO2. It's quite calming.

Would you mind linking to the allithiamine product you use? It's actually harder to find than I thought. Thanks!

 

[aguineapig]

The beta blockers might be a good option for ya. I use atenolol and propanolol. I feel strongly that atenolol is safer and less problematic, but if all you can get is propanolol it's ok too, just carefully avoid huge doses as it can block 5HT1A receptors and increase Serotonin.

Buspirone and cypro have been extremely helpful for me along with self structured exposure therapy. Buspirone should be easy to get a Rx for and can be very very effective. I take 10mg buspirone twice a day and 1mg cypro at night. I'm enjoying perhaps the most productive year of my life for my well being despite tons of stress and change.

Good luck. Glad you stopped the SSRI.

 

[opethfeldt]

High serotonin for me feels like a veil over everything. There's no color, no brightness. No meaning to anything and life itself is pointless. I wouldn't wish high serotonin on anuone. The sad thing is, I believe most people are in this state all the time and don't even realize things could be better because they have never achieved a high dopamine state.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

Anxiety and adrenal problems are 1:1

Fixes are, in order of importance:

vitamin C - whole food source = camu camu berry powder, acerola cherry powder... Take until loose stools, 1g minimum/day up to 20g as needed.
salt - 2-3 teaspoons/day with adequate water, no iodized table salt
fructose - found in ripe fruit
minerals - vegetables, cook anywhere from a brief blanch to well done. If cooking a long time, make sure to consume the water
magnesium - most magnesium supplements work except magnesium oxide
trace minerals - e.g. shilajit, fulvic + humic acid, or liquid chlorophyll

Herbs:
Licorice root - very potent, don't mix if caffeine is still in circulation as it increases the half-life of cortisol
Ginkgo leaf
Eleuthero root
Ginger root

Liver and oysters would also help a lot. Just try 3-6 ounces/week of each on different days.

 

[Nokoni]

Would you mind linking to the allithiamine product you use? It's actually harder to find than I thought. Thanks!

Not at all. I use this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Cardiovascul...1&keywords=allithiamine&qid=1592825295&sr=8-5

 

[metabolizm]

The beta blockers might be a good option for ya. I use atenolol and propanolol. I feel strongly that atenolol is safer and less problematic, but if all you can get is propanolol it's ok too, just carefully avoid huge doses as it can block 5HT1A receptors and increase Serotonin.

Buspirone and cypro have been extremely helpful for me along with self structured exposure therapy. Buspirone should be easy to get a Rx for and can be very very effective. I take 10mg buspirone twice a day and 1mg cypro at night. I'm enjoying perhaps the most productive year of my life for my well being despite tons of stress and change.

Good luck. Glad you stopped the SSRI.

In what way have you found the cyproheptadine to be helpful? I have some in a drawer, but haven't used it yet. Not really sure what to expect from it.

 

[orewashin]

yep. I would explain it as neurotic thoughts with body odor.

Why the body odor? Is it because of the sweating?

 

[TheBeard]

I've been taking an SSRI (Citalopram) for the last two weeks, in a desperate effort to eliminate severe anxiety. The side effects have been so unpleasant that I'm going to stop now - I've seen sense. I suppose one benefit of this experiment is that it has given me a window into what it feels like when you medically elevate your serotonin levels. Short answer: it does not feel good.

What it felt like: manic energy, loose & smelly stools, constant sweating and body odour, worsening of varicocele, muscle tension, constant need to clench my jaw and grind my teeth, heightened anxiety, heightened aggression, hot flushes, worsened hay fever (increased histamine).

I think that's about it. It's been awful. There have been no positives. This was all on a low dose of the drug. These drugs do seem to work for some people: I don't deny that, and I really hoped they would work for me. It's possible that the side effects would have eased off eventually. But it seems clear you have to do some damage before you get there. In fact, that's one theory about the SSRI mechanism: the brain irritation they cause is what brings about the therapeutic response. No thanks. Plus, I'm constantly hearing about the nightmare of coming off them, and that was on the back of my mind.

The energy spike was unexpected, and I would be interested to hear an explanation of how that connects to serotonergic activity. (I should clarify, it was not at all a good energy. It was what I imagine bad, adulterated cocaine would feel like.)

I'm going to try Propranolol now. It seems a lot safer, and Ray himself has actually recommended it for immediate relief from anxiety.

Personnaly, my anxiety comes from my gut bacteria overload producing endotoxins.
When I take antibiotics, my anxiety vanishes and I sleep great.

Another way to do that naturally is to flush your gut with castor oil and then start a carnivore diet.

 

[metabolizm]

Why the body odor? Is it because of the sweating?

Yes, I think it's just because of the increased sweating.

 

[JudiBlueHen]

@metabolizm, I've had almost exactly the same response from other SSRIs I have tried, in particular, Zoloft. If you get this response, it is basically a manic response. You are probably bipolar II, or "soft bipolar". I know a lot of people on this forum are against psych meds, and we all try to avoid them to be sure.

But sometimes you just need help right away - to keep your life or your job from falling off the rails. I have found that anti-psychotics are the best psych meds for this type of depression/anxiety. They can be taken at a VERY low dose at bedtime and might allow you to get better sleep. Better sleep in turn will help you to cope better with whatever the next day holds for you. For instance, I took 2 mg olanzapine for 6 months and it was very helpful - I was able to quit at that point. Some people with psychotic conditions (not you, not me) need as much as 20-40mg/day, so you can see how low a 2mg dose is.

You might also have an issue with your liver enzymes, for example CYP3A4, a p450 enzyme. If you have a gene for the "reduced" metabolizer for this gene, then about 50% of all medications will accumulate metabolites that your body cannot normally dispose of. (Technically it gives you increased AUC, area under the curve, for a given dose). I discovered that I have a *22 allele, which indicates reduced ability to metabolize some meds, including most SSRIs. Olanzapine was selected for me because it is not metabolized by this particular liver enzyme.

 

[aguineapig]

In what way have you found the cyproheptadine to be helpful? I have some in a drawer, but haven't used it yet. Not really sure what to expect from it.

It blocks 5-HT2A most importantly, which is huge in anxiety and depression. It has many other effects as elucidated elsewhere on the form, but I am mostly using to block all the 5-HT2 subset receptors.

 

[aguineapig]

@metabolizm, I've had almost exactly the same response from other SSRIs I have tried, in particular, Zoloft. If you get this response, it is basically a manic response. You are probably bipolar II, or "soft bipolar". I know a lot of people on this forum are against psych meds, and we all try to avoid them to be sure.

But sometimes you just need help right away - to keep your life or your job from falling off the rails. I have found that anti-psychotics are the best psych meds for this type of depression/anxiety. They can be taken at a VERY low dose at bedtime and might allow you to get better sleep. Better sleep in turn will help you to cope better with whatever the next day holds for you. For instance, I took 2 mg olanzapine for 6 months and it was very helpful - I was able to quit at that point. Some people with psychotic conditions (not you, not me) need as much as 20-40mg/day, so you can see how low a 2mg dose is.

You might also have an issue with your liver enzymes, for example CYP3A4, a p450 enzyme. If you have a gene for the "reduced" metabolizer for this gene, then about 50% of all medications will accumulate metabolites that your body cannot normally dispose of. (Technically it gives you increased AUC, area under the curve, for a given dose). I discovered that I have a *22 allele, which indicates reduced ability to metabolize some meds, including most SSRIs. Olanzapine was selected for me because it is not metabolized by this particular liver enzyme.

Low dose antipsychotics mostly block 5-HT2A. Cyproheptadine is another good choice at low doses and is generally very safe.

 

[metabolizm]

Low dose antipsychotics mostly block 5-HT2A. Cyproheptadine is another good choice at low doses and is generally very safe.

Interesting. I'll start with 1mg Cypro and see how that goes.