What does the carrot salad kill exactly?

[Makrosky]

Hey Guys,

I've been reading some threads about gut and endotoxin and I still don't understand if the carrot salad(+coconutoil and stuff) kills only bad bacteria or kills good flora too.

Does anybody know?

Thanks

 

[HDD]

This should help.

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... aw-carrot/

 

[Makrosky]

This should help.

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... aw-carrot/

Thanks HDD!

After reading all that page, it's still unclear what it does kill. From what I understand, it appears to kill all good and bad bacteria, otherwise he wouldn't recommend adding vitamin K.

Maybe anyone else has more info ?

 

[HDD]

That is my understanding, too. Both good and bad bacteria. Similar to an antibiotic which Dr. Peat recommends occasionally. I spent years cultivating "good gut bacteria" through all the popular means and when I research there is evidence for this.

This is a good short read on using fermented foods to cultivate good gut bacteria.

http://blog.arkofwellness.com/fermented-food-a-no-go/
"Fermented vegetables, beans, and fish have been associated with cancer for a long time, and fungal toxins are the main carcinogens, but too much lactic acid is toxic, and even acetic acid could be in some situations." RP

 

[schultz]

I may be wrong but here is what I think...

I'm not sure the carrot is supposed to act like an antibiotic and kill bacteria. The carrot is meant to act merely as fibre. The reason why a carrot is used is because bacteria have a hard time breaking it down (it therefore won't feed bacteria). A sluggish bowel may allow estrogen to reabsorbed and possibly allow endotoxin to flourish due stuff sitting around too long.

Adding vinegar and coconut oil may act as a mild antibiotic.

 

[pboy]

everything including humans and good moods

 

[HDD]

I may be wrong but here is what I think...

I'm not sure the carrot is supposed to act like an antibiotic and kill bacteria. The carrot is meant to act merely as fibre. The reason why a carrot is used is because bacteria have a hard time breaking it down (it therefore won't feed bacteria). A sluggish bowel may allow estrogen to reabsorbed and possibly allow endotoxin to flourish due stuff sitting around too long.

Adding vinegar and coconut oil may act as a mild antibiotic.

I am not trying to argue or beat a dead horse.
Just quoting.
"Some fibers, such as raw carrots, that are effective for lowering endotoxin absorption also contain natural antibiotics, so regular use of carrots should be balanced by occasional supplementation with vitamin K, or by occasionally eating liver or broccoli."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml

 

[schultz]

I may be wrong but here is what I think...

I'm not sure the carrot is supposed to act like an antibiotic and kill bacteria. The carrot is meant to act merely as fibre. The reason why a carrot is used is because bacteria have a hard time breaking it down (it therefore won't feed bacteria). A sluggish bowel may allow estrogen to reabsorbed and possibly allow endotoxin to flourish due stuff sitting around too long.

Adding vinegar and coconut oil may act as a mild antibiotic.

I am not trying to argue or beat a dead horse.
Just quoting.
"Some fibers, such as raw carrots, that are effective for lowering endotoxin absorption also contain natural antibiotics, so regular use of carrots should be balanced by occasional supplementation with vitamin K, or by occasionally eating liver or broccoli."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml

Oh okay, so it actually does have an antibiotic effect. Ray even says to take vitamin k with it in case it kills off the vitamin k making bacteria (which makes it seem like the effect is a little more than mild).

Don't think you're arguing with me. I'm here to learn, not belligerently argue my point. I appreciate you taking the time to dig this quote up!

 

[EnoreeG]

Has anyone involved on this thread had an assay of their gut microbiome, such as is available through the American Gut, Human Food Project?
http://distractify.com/beth-buczynski/white-things-overheard-at-whole-foods/

And if so, did you do it in conjunction with eating some carrot salad, such that you might expect less bacteria, or less pathogenic bacteria as a result? The results might be interesting. For a $99 donation you can find out "who's in your gut". And compare your findings with others'.

I did this a little over a year ago and the results were an eye opener. They haven't yet determined any certain mix of microbes is an indicator of gut health, human health, or longevity, and they probably aren't going to, possibly ever. But the results do show a vast range of varieties of microbes in, and on humans, and they've generally found that healthier humans have a greater variety of microbes, and that the variety tends to go up when there is greater variety in foods.

Check out the site if you're interested in the human/microbe interplay. They have a lot of articles there, plus they recommend this book (Honor Thy Symbionts):

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ANVNQA2/?tag=rapefo-20

 

[jyb]

I did this a little over a year ago and the results were an eye opener. They haven't yet determined any certain mix of microbes is an indicator of gut health, human health, or longevity, and they probably aren't going to, possibly ever. But the results do show a vast range of varieties of microbes in, and on humans, and they've generally found that healthier humans have a greater variety of microbes, and that the variety tends to go up when there is greater variety in foods.

It depends on what variety. If you mean eat different cuisines (this is frequent nowadays with people eating out Indian, cooking at home, Thai, Italian...) then that's food variety and what people mean when they say they eat varied. But it could be deleterious for gut flora diversity. This is a view from Art Ayers from Coolinginflammation, and his list of useful foods to repair non-diverse gut flora is quite restrictive (basically, some fermented vegetables, resistant starch and among milk bacteria only kefir has a potential). Some of his view are not compatible with Peat (he thinks antibiotics have serious risk of reducing gut flora diversity and its bad) while others are (vegetable oils are bad).

 

[EnoreeG]

I may be wrong but here is what I think...

I'm not sure the carrot is supposed to act like an antibiotic and kill bacteria. The carrot is meant to act merely as fibre. The reason why a carrot is used is because bacteria have a hard time breaking it down (it therefore won't feed bacteria). A sluggish bowel may allow estrogen to reabsorbed and possibly allow endotoxin to flourish due stuff sitting around too long.

Adding vinegar and coconut oil may act as a mild antibiotic.

I am not trying to argue or beat a dead horse.
Just quoting.
"Some fibers, such as raw carrots, that are effective for lowering endotoxin absorption also contain natural antibiotics, so regular use of carrots should be balanced by occasional supplementation with vitamin K, or by occasionally eating liver or broccoli."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml

Oh okay, so it actually does have an antibiotic effect. Ray even says to take vitamin k with it in case it kills off the vitamin k making bacteria (which makes it seem like the effect is a little more than mild).

Don't think you're arguing with me. I'm here to learn, not belligerently argue my point. I appreciate you taking the time to dig this quote up!

I think you are mostly spot-on in your original summation of the Peat quote from FPS schultz. If you look at how Peat constructed the sentence, he started with "some fibers", then he used carrots as an example (which we know he does often). If he had wanted to say the carrot was the only fiber able to do the protection, he would never had started with "some fibers". Also, he emphasized "lowering endotoxin absorption" before mentioning an antibiotic effect. He was being specific about the fact that fiber reduces absorption. That is definitely a good thing!

When he got to mentioning "contain natural antibiotics" he didn't say to what extent any microbes were limited. If you read about microbial environments, you quickly find out that the greatest control of microbial species in the gut is conducted by the microbes themselves. That's what "probiotics" is all about. Microbial populations operate like human populations. They have a "ruling" class which for microbes is the majorities. They may have hundreds or thousands of minority species that are allowed to live in pleasant co-existence and this includes all kinds of pathogenic species. There's absolutely no problem with this situation as long as nothing upsets the apple cart, like taking a pharmaceutical antibiotic, or introducing an overwhelming new "big brother" species like dysentery, typhus, salmonella or botulism, that is in such numbers that it overpowers the current ruling bacteria in your gut.

Microbial control as a result of fiber is probably just as you described it: a very minor consideration:

...a carrot is used is because bacteria have a hard time breaking it down (it therefore won't feed bacteria). A sluggish bowel may allow estrogen to reabsorbed and possibly allow endotoxin to flourish due stuff sitting around too long.

So I take that to mean that fiber, especially insoluble as in carrots, keeps things moving, and thereby reduces endotoxin absorption. I think it's more. Like fiber, and the small amount of it that is converted to short chain fats, actually feeds the gut cells directly, keeping them sound and tightly sealed to each other and that is what prevents leakage of endotoxins (and starch particles) into the body.

One reason I say that I think fiber has a limited antibiotic effect is that the microbiome is really what determines which microbial species must be minimized. Carrot fiber doesn't think, and doesn't have recognition software on board that tells it which species to kill, which to ignore. And it certainly doesn't just reduce microbes indiscriminately or else people who eat a lot of fiber would tend to have far fewer microbes in the gut. Actually, the opposite is true. The greatest quantities and varieties of microbes are found in the guts of peoples who are heavy fiber eaters (most of the world outside those in the developed countries). A link that explains a lot on how all bacteria can count the numbers of themselves vs other bacterial species is here:

http://www.ted.com/talks/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate?language=en

If you take the presentation in this link at face value, it totally explains how botulism is mostly a disease of infants, if their guts haven't been initialized with enough healthy bacteria. Once proper gut bacteria are established, (usually by 6 mos. to 1 year of age), the Clostridium botulinum can be introduced, but will have no effect, as it is wiped out by the resident, dominant micrrobiome. This is what we all want. We take it for granted until something strange happens, like a doctor talks us into an antibiotic treatment.

I really can't explain why Peat recommends taking vitamin K, liver or broccoli if carrots are eaten frequently, as though those are the only relief from possible over-kill of certain microorganisms.

But after that statement, quoted from Peat, what I think is most interesting and possibly the best explanation of what he is getting at is the very next paragraph:

“Polysaccharides and oligosaccharides include many kinds of molecules that no human enzyme can break down, so they necessarily aren’t broken down for absorption until they encounter bacterial or fungal enzymes. In a well maintained digestive system, those organisms will live almost exclusively in the large intestine, leaving the length of the small intestine for the absorption of monosaccharides without fermentation. When digestive secretions are inadequate, and peristalsis is sluggish, bacteria and fungi can invade the small intestine, interfering with digestion and causing inflammation and toxic effects. Lactose malabsorption has been corrected just by correcting a deficiency of thyroid or progesterone…Sometimes having a daily carrot salad (grated, with salt, olive oil, and a few drops of vinegar) will stimulate (and disinfect) the small intestine enough to prevent fermentation.”

So he's explaining that the bacteria are needed to fully convert some of the complex starches and fiber for absorption. He's careful to point out that this is supposed to happen in the large intestine, leaving the small intestine for absorption of sugars, and without fermentation going on there at all. This is what he calls "normal" and is what all of us should be allowing our gut to have as a normal situation. The way to do this is to eat plenty of fiber which, as you imply, schulz, prevents the sluggish bowel, where, as Peat says then "bacteria and fungi can invade the small intestine, interfering with digestion and causing inflammation and toxic effects." So those wonderful bacteria that do so much, by converting some polysaccharides for use, by keeping the pathogenic bacteria under control, and by keeping the large intestine lining healthy, need to stay in the large intestine. Once they invade the small intestine because people don't eat enough fiber to keep them pushed back, then is when the fermentation occurs at the wrong time, in the wrong place. And that is what we don't want. At least this is how I see it all.

I guess the only way I differ from Peat on this is that he dares to encourage people to try to have normal peristalsis in the small intestine by possibly eating just a carrot salad (he doesn't say how large even), while I am taking no chance on having my large-intestine bacteria start creeping up into my small intestine and causing gas, fermentation, improper absorption, etc. so I am eating more fiber than just a carrot salad each day.

That's my take on it, but contrasting viewpoints are always welcome. Like you, I'm here to learn.

 

[EnoreeG]

I did this a little over a year ago and the results were an eye opener. They haven't yet determined any certain mix of microbes is an indicator of gut health, human health, or longevity, and they probably aren't going to, possibly ever. But the results do show a vast range of varieties of microbes in, and on humans, and they've generally found that healthier humans have a greater variety of microbes, and that the variety tends to go up when there is greater variety in foods.

It depends on what variety. If you mean eat different cuisines (this is frequent nowadays with people eating out Indian, cooking at home, Thai, Italian...) then that's food variety and what people mean when they say they eat varied. But it could be deleterious for gut flora diversity. This is a view from Art Ayers from Coolinginflammation, and his list of useful foods to repair non-diverse gut flora is quite restrictive (basically, some fermented vegetables, resistant starch and among milk bacteria only kefir has a potential). Some of his view are not compatible with Peat (he thinks antibiotics have serious risk of reducing gut flora diversity and its bad) while others are (vegetable oils are bad).

Thanks for mentioning Art Ayers, jyb. I'd never read him, but he seems to have quite an up to date view of the human gut microbiome's importance to our immune system. I really enjoyed reading this page I found by him:

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/

He said, in part:
" Fix Your Diet, Fix Your Gut Microbiota and Fix Your Diseases
The good news is that all of the chronic diseases that threaten your future can be cured by just fixing your diet and repairing the complex bacterial communities in your gut. Your immune system is critical to your health and damage to your immune system is the typical beginning to most diseases. Damage to the immune system starts in the gut, where the aggressive and suppressive halves of the immune system develop in response to particular species of bacteria. Those essential bacteria grow on the food in your diet that is not digested in the stomach and absorbed as nutrients in the small intestines, i.e. prebiotic fiber. Thus, you eat to feed yourself and your gut bacteria. Without the gut bacteria, you would be deficient in vitamins, your immune system would cease to function and you would be constipated. Fixing your diet and gut microbiota will cure your diseases."

Now that's a powerful claim. But it just could hold a lot of truth. Reading the whole article convinced me to at least be open to more from Ayers. Thanks!

 

[jyb]

Now that's a powerful claim. But it just could hold a lot of truth. Reading the whole article convinced me to at least be open to more from Ayers. Thanks!

I can't vouch on the quality, a lot of the claims look like pure speculation. In particular where is his proof that bacteria produce needed nutrients? Because it has been argued that those are quite insignificant compared to what you find in good food. But I cited him because he represents the view of disease caused by dysbiosis.

 

[Brian]

I can't vouch on the quality, a lot of the claims look like pure speculation. In particular where is his proof that bacteria produce needed nutrients? Because it has been argued that those are quite insignificant compared to what you find in good food. But I cited him because he represents the view of disease caused by dysbiosis.

It's well established that it is possible to obtain the spectrum of B-Vitamins and K2-m7 from gut bacteria production. Many animals rely on this, but it seems to me that outside of the wild it is harder to maintain the correct microbiota that will have a net benefit.

So personally for me I think the safer strategy is take measures to reduce bacterial growth and just make sure to consume enough B and K vitamins.

 

[jyb]

I can't vouch on the quality, a lot of the claims look like pure speculation. In particular where is his proof that bacteria produce needed nutrients? Because it has been argued that those are quite insignificant compared to what you find in good food. But I cited him because he represents the view of disease caused by dysbiosis.

It's well established that it is possible to obtain the spectrum of B-Vitamins and K2-m7 from gut bacteria production. Many animals rely on this, but it seems to me that outside of the wild it is harder to maintain the correct microbiota that will have a net benefit.

So personally for me I think the safer strategy is take measures to reduce bacterial growth and just make sure to consume enough B and K vitamins.

Yes that's ok. For example if you ferment milk, you increase a lot of the vitamins. But he claimed it was necessary to get those from there to avoid deficiency... How much K2 can gut bacteria really produce? Compared to what you get from good dairy? Otherwise, it does not seem incompatible to have low bacterial growth and good diverse flora, I'm not questioning some of his other claims. A good flora is also one that does not lead to overgrowth of gram-negative bacteria (for example, it is suspected that toxoplasma causes E Coli to grow, so if your flora has toxoplasma then you'll have overgrowth).

 

[HDD]

Antimicrobial activity of shredded carrot extracts on food-borne bacteria and yeast.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8144415/

 

[EnoreeG]

I can't vouch on the quality, a lot of the claims look like pure speculation. In particular where is his proof that bacteria produce needed nutrients? Because it has been argued that those are quite insignificant compared to what you find in good food. But I cited him because he represents the view of disease caused by dysbiosis.

It's well established that it is possible to obtain the spectrum of B-Vitamins and K2-m7 from gut bacteria production. Many animals rely on this, but it seems to me that outside of the wild it is harder to maintain the correct microbiota that will have a net benefit.

So personally for me I think the safer strategy is take measures to reduce bacterial growth and just make sure to consume enough B and K vitamins.

Well, I agree that the gut bacteria can produce a lot of healthy substances, including a range of vitamins. I've read it many times in articles on digestion. And it may or may not be significant quantities of vitamins compared to what we get from food, as jyp says. But maybe what is significant is that for those of us who don't eat the best foods every day, and don't supplement with pills (yes, we're like Paleo nomads maybe, gathering what we find, and on some days, it's not great!) then bacterial produced vitamins may be a critical supplement to help maintain health. Certainly these extra vitamins are not to be shunned, and being naturally produced, they are definitely superior to vitamins manufactured and placed into capsules. There's also plentiful proof of this fact.

On your idea to reduce bacterial growth, Brian, is this from your interpretation of Peat? The Peat paragraph I quoted above implied for me that what Peat wanted was just to keep gut bacteria more in the large intestine, and not to outright reduce them. I don't really think it is possible or recommended to reduce numbers of bacteria in the gut. On that, I think Ayers has the right idea. They are critical to your health in that they are estimated to be 80% of your immune system. Cutting their numbers is like reducing the numbers of fire fighters and firetrucks in a city, it seems to me.

When Peat said "When...peristalsis is sluggish, bacteria and fungi can invade the small intestine, interfering with digestion and causing inflammation and toxic effects." I hear it as, "Those invading bacteria are coming up from the large intestine, and they don't belong in the small intestine." (BTW, the key to having sufficient peristalsis is having sufficient fiber in the food - the gut muscles need some fibrous "substance" to grip in order to move the bolus along.) I think Peat isn't saying we need to fix the problem by getting rid of all bacteria. He admits we need them in the large intestine.

So if you wish to minimize bacteria, maybe hoping that it will allow less to invade the small intestine, I think it may backfire. The only way to minimize bacteria is to kill them off. If you don't use antibiotics, you do it by providing them less food. That can go 2 ways. First, if you just cut down on the fiber they need to keep them out of the small intestine, you are going to get gut dysbiosis and have them move up there, feeding on the sugars, making gas and other endotoxins. The bacterial mix will change in just days to be something not conducive to health. Second, if you fix that by cutting out the simple sugars you ingest, you will starve a good percentage of them, and have so few that you now have constipation, as fully 50-80 of a bowel movement is just spent bacteria, and the rest is undigested fiber and some excreted toxins:
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/22/7871579/poop-feces

The less bowel movements you have, the longer the toxins reside in your colon (a proven cause of colon cancer). None of this is helping your immune system. Daily bowel movements prove you are running through billions of bacteria daily, spending their entire short lives doing their thing, and also reproducing another set of generations to do likewise the next day. Changing one's eating pattern to stifle this is something I would be wary of.

Peat doesn't focus on this, but he hints at it. Ayers does say quite a bit on this. I haven't yet read but that one cited article by Ayers, but I will be reading more of what he has to say. I thank you, jyb, for mentioning his material.

Brian, I take your comment "...outside of the wild it is harder to maintain the correct microbiota that will have a net benefit." seriously, and definitely agree. My solution is to move myself more in line with "the wild" though. I eat quite a bit of raw food, and a small, but varied portion of that is weeds that are high in the phytonutrients (prebiotics) that help feed the microbes in my lower intestines. I also eat cooked greens daily. I am fortunate that I am retired and can get into a home garden now that provides a substantial portion of my food, grown organically, picked fresh, and hopefully highly nutritious. Not everyone has the opportunity or inclination to participate in this wild type of living, but I find it seems to provide me with good health. I wish you both the best of health on the best foods that you can find out there in your corners of the world.

 

[YuraCZ]

Articles by Ayers? Where I can read them pls? I really wanna find the right formula for my digestion...

 

[EnoreeG]

Articles by Ayers? Where I can read them pls? I really wanna find the right formula for my digestion...

I hear ya! I just took that name, Art Ayers, mentioned by jyb Saturday on this thread, and found his site. I was just starting to look at the 2nd article here when I saw this comment from you. The first thing I read and used for my replies yesterday was this:

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/

The next one I'm checking out because it seemed related is this one:

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com ... nstipation

There's a lot more articles available on the right side of Ayers' page, plus links to his blog posts. Have fun, and check back and let me know what you think. It seems he has a lot in common with Peat, but his material seems more logically laid out and leaves me with less questions when I'm finished.

Cheers

 

[YuraCZ]

So from what I read. Soluble fiber is good? So one apple per day will be maybe good idea..