Low Toxin Supplements What B vitamin stack do you take?

orangebear

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So, I've been experimenting with B vitamins over the course of several years, and I've learned they can be beneficial, and I am likely deficient in some due to years of poor digestion, but I also have to be careful with the amounts and forms due to methylation issues. I started with B complexes, and they almost always made me feel better for a week or two and then worse, so eventually I had to build my own stack, one vitamin at a time. Now, I understand the ultimate goal is to not need many supplements, but in the meantime, here's what I've built so far, and I'm still working on it. I'm also curious about what exact stacks, forms, and amounts other people use from both a low vA and a Ray Peat perspective, so that I might get ideas on how to experiment with tweaking my own stack. So, without further ado, here's my stack and how I came to it.

B1 as thiamin HCl — between 50–100mg
B2 as riboflavin USP — 6.5mg
B3 — 30mg as niacinamide in the morning and between 25–300mg as niacin split over 2–3 times a day
B5 as pantothenic acid — 30mg so far
B6 — I don't supplement, but will occasionally eat high B6 foods, such as skipjack tuna
B7 — Another I get from food right now
B9 — I also don't supplement folate at the moment though I have tried folinic acid in small amounts and didn't notice much of a difference. I do eat beans, asparagus, etc.
B12 — I also don't supplement and I eat plenty of meat, but I have heard it's a good idea to try with my methylation profile

I don't remember the exact reasons for starting B1 and B2, but there were a number. Digestion, energy production, balancing out ketone bodies (especially since ketosis is not my goal these days), antidote to vA metabolites, etc. As for B3, both niacin and niacinamide reduce anxiety for me by somewhere around 90%, even at tiny doses; larger doses don't seem to make a big difference, so I sometimes try different doses. It might help with heartburn sometimes, but not always. B5 is one I just started and I'm hoping it helps with digestion. It might be, but it's still early to tell and I know I'm taking a rather small dose. I got the idea to try it from someone's post on the forum and they mentioned the dose, but I don't remember who said it and in which thread. As for B6, I'm being cautious about it because I watched one of Meri Arthur's videos talking about how if you are deficient in other B vitamins and your metabolism is off, B6 can be converted into a nerotoxic compound. Dr. Smith also considers it a toxin and warns against consuming it, but I think like in many things he's right on the surface but doesn't understand the complex details. B6 is probably is necessary, but I wouldn't want to supplement it while my metabolism is off and risk it hurting me. If anyone has any details to share on B6, I'd love to hear more information about it. I haven't given a lot of thought to B7 yet, so I can't say much about it yet. With B9, like I said above, I haven't tried supplementing a lot; I didn't see much of a difference with a little, and I heard supplementing a lot can lead to weight gain if the metabolism isn't fixed.

Now, for B12, I've heard that adenosylcobalamin and hydroxocobalamin are good forms for me to take and are very beneficial for someone with an MTHFR A1298C mutation, which is the mutation that fails to put the brakes on methylation and can make one overmethylate. Speaking of methylation, it is probably one of the reasons methylated B complexes caused me trouble after a week or two. Another thing is that back in 2020, my blood B12 was off the charts, which probably means that it wasn't being transported into the cells, so I may have had a functional B12 deficiency but supplementing B12 probably wouldn't have solved it. Now, I also felt much sicker back then and things have probably changed since, but I'm a little loathe to go and get poked again. I wonder if there is some other way to tell whether I should or should not supplement B12 and what to look out for if I do start.

So, what stacks do you guys take and why? I'm wondering if we could come up with some starter stacks that could work for different people and various contexts and stages of detox and gut healing. Also, some good information to have is what to eventually eliminate as a supplement as people get healthier and the microbiome takes over producing some of these B vitamins.
 

youngsinatra

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B1: Thiamine HCL 100-200mg (or 5-10mg thiamine pyrophosphate) once a day or every other day
B2: R5P 4 x 30mg a day (after each meal) — I don’t tolerate plain B2 digestive wise somehow
B3: nicotinic acid 4 x 50mg (after each meal)
B5: calcium pantothenate 1 x 50-100mg (a few hours away from biotin)

Those three once a day with breakfast: (they work synergistically, biotin is needed for B12 to be functional and B12 therapy requires a higher demand for biotin)
B7: D-biotin (liquid) 5mg
B9: methylfolate 400mcg
B12: methyl- adenosylcobalamin 1000 mcg

No B6 for me too. B6 clearlance requires B2 and molybdenum.

I also take 200mg CoQ10. 100mg alpha lipoic acid (away from biotin and B5, because they all compete for the same transporter) And 80mg magnesium malate (elemental Mg) with each meal. Molybdenum intake is important.
 

Morten

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B1: Thiamine HCL 100-200mg (or 5-10mg thiamine pyrophosphate) once a day or every other day
B2: R5P 4 x 30mg a day (after each meal) — I don’t tolerate plain B2 digestive wise somehow
B3: nicotinic acid 4 x 50mg (after each meal)
B5: calcium pantothenate 1 x 50-100mg (a few hours away from biotin)

Those three once a day with breakfast: (they work synergistically, biotin is needed for B12 to be functional and B12 therapy requires a higher demand for biotin)
B7: D-biotin (liquid) 5mg
B9: methylfolate 400mcg
B12: methyl- adenosylcobalamin 1000 mcg

No B6 for me too. B6 clearlance requires B2 and molybdenum.

I also take 200mg CoQ10. 100mg alpha lipoic acid (away from biotin and B5, because they all compete for the same transporter) And 80mg magnesium malate (elemental Mg) with each meal. Molybdenum intake is important.
Nicotinic acid, is that B3?
 

youngsinatra

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Whats the difference flush vs non flush?
I think flush niacin more effectively raises NAD+ levels through the Preiss–Handler pathway rather than NAM, which goes through the salvage pathway
 

loess

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B2: R5P 4 x 30mg a day (after each meal) — I don’t tolerate plain B2 digestive wise somehow
B9: methylfolate 400mcg
Curious as to your motivations for taking what looks like a rather significant dose of B2? Does that have something to do with the idea of the essentiality of B2 for the enzymes that utilize B1 in the context of methylation, and the general picture of B2 working in concert with B1; so extra B1 supplementation potentially putting more of a "demand" on the need for ensuring that B2 is replete at all times? These are things Greg Russell-Jones has talked about around his B12 protocols...

Also, any particular reason that you use methylfolate rather than folinic acid/calcium folinate?

Lastly, what do you feel alpha lipoic acid does for you? Is it not high in sulfides/sulfates, therefore slowing ADH/ALDH and also potentially compromising/destroying thiamine?
 

youngsinatra

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Curious as to your motivations for taking what looks like a rather significant dose of B2? Does that have something to do with the idea of the essentiality of B2 for the enzymes that utilize B1 in the context of methylation, and the general picture of B2 working in concert with B1; so extra B1 supplementation potentially putting more of a "demand" on the need for ensuring that B2 is replete at all times? These are things Greg Russell-Jones has talked about around his B12 protocols...

Also, any particular reason that you use methylfolate rather than folinic acid/calcium folinate?

Lastly, what do you feel alpha lipoic acid does for you? Is it not high in sulfides/sulfates, therefore slowing ADH/ALDH and also potentially compromising/destroying thiamine?
I seem to require more B2. If I take less I get dry skin, chapped lips, cracked corners of the lips, blood-shot eyes. And yes, I agree with GRJ on how essential B2 is for many processes.

I take methylfolate because I tolerate it well and have a good source for it. Folinic acid is fine too, if one prefers that.

Alpha lipoic acid is needed in the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex alongside B1, B2, B3, B5 and magnesium. It’s biosynthesis can be disrupted by toxins. It’s a powerful anticancer agent by accelerating glucose oxidation and lowering lactate levels.

ALA also increases acetyl-CoA and increases cholinergic signaling, which is leading to HCL production, better bile flow etc. from my experience.

IMG_8054.jpeg
 

youngsinatra

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Regarding the sulfur of ALA. It’s quite similar to B1 as both contain thiol groups. I think adequate molybdenum status is essential to turn toxic sulfites into sulfates. Sulfite can disrupt mitochondrial respiration by binding to Complex IV if I remember correctly.

Chris Masterjohn has written about sulfite / hydrogen sulfide quite extensively.
 
OP
orangebear

orangebear

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B1: Thiamine HCL 100-200mg (or 5-10mg thiamine pyrophosphate) once a day or every other day
B2: R5P 4 x 30mg a day (after each meal) — I don’t tolerate plain B2 digestive wise somehow
B3: nicotinic acid 4 x 50mg (after each meal)
B5: calcium pantothenate 1 x 50-100mg (a few hours away from biotin)

Those three once a day with breakfast: (they work synergistically, biotin is needed for B12 to be functional and B12 therapy requires a higher demand for biotin)
B7: D-biotin (liquid) 5mg
B9: methylfolate 400mcg
B12: methyl- adenosylcobalamin 1000 mcg

No B6 for me too. B6 clearlance requires B2 and molybdenum.

I also take 200mg CoQ10. 100mg alpha lipoic acid (away from biotin and B5, because they all compete for the same transporter) And 80mg magnesium malate (elemental Mg) with each meal. Molybdenum intake is important.
I seem to tolerate riboflavin USP well. What's the conversion rate between that and R5P? I forgot to mention that the reason I take both niacinamide and niacin is that the former is supposed to be helpful as an anti-fungal. I can't say if I've been able to confirm that as my fungal issues tend to fluctuate regardless of what I supplement, so it's hard to tell. I didn't realize there's something to separating some of the B vitamins from others. I generally like to get it over with in the morning, but if it's more effective to separate them, that might be something to try. Thanks for writing about your stack! I can try to design more experiments with my health coach and this info.
 

youngsinatra

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I seem to tolerate riboflavin USP well. What's the conversion rate between that and R5P? I forgot to mention that the reason I take both niacinamide and niacin is that the former is supposed to be helpful as an anti-fungal. I can't say if I've been able to confirm that as my fungal issues tend to fluctuate regardless of what I supplement, so it's hard to tell. I didn't realize there's something to separating some of the B vitamins from others. I generally like to get it over with in the morning, but if it's more effective to separate them, that might be something to try. Thanks for writing about your stack! I can try to design more experiments with my health coach and this info.
I think R5P and free riboflavin are pretty much equally absorbed from the research that I have seen.

R5P actually needs to get de-phosphorylated in the GI tract to free riboflavin before it can be absorbed. I suspect my digestive upset from plain B2 might be due to impurities. Ray said B2 can be allergenic for some due to that reason if I remember correctly. Maybe the process of making R5P (FMN) is making the product more pure. (just a speculation on my part)

And yes, the sodium-dependent-multivitamin-transporter is quite interesting in regards to biotin, pantothenic acid and alpha lipoate absorption and competition.
 

Morten

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I think R5P and free riboflavin are pretty much equally absorbed from the research that I have seen.

R5P actually needs to get de-phosphorylated in the GI tract to free riboflavin before it can be absorbed. I suspect my digestive upset from plain B2 might be due to impurities. Ray said B2 can be allergenic for some due to that reason if I remember correctly. Maybe the process of making R5P (FMN) is making the product more pure. (just a speculation on my part)

And yes, the sodium-dependent-multivitamin-transporter is quite interesting in regards to biotin, pantothenic acid and alpha lipoate absorption and competition.
Could it be silica in the product?
 

lilrawhoney

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Currently I do

B1 (thiamine HCL) : 400mg

B2: 100 mg

Niacin (Nicotinic acid) : 500mg after breakfast and 250mg after lunch and dinner

I'm thinking about adding biotin as well.
 
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

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