What Are Your Thoughts On MATT STONE?

[NotSoAlpha]

So this guy is what got me into the idea of improving metabolism to fix health problems.

Now, his books are entertaining and all but his advice didn't work for me. His advice is basically just "Eat lots of carbs, eat lots of salt, avoid PUFA. His forum is also dead, it gets like one post a month, so you can't even get help on his forum.

So I ditched him and moved onto Ray Peat.

But I'm just curious what you guys think of Matt Stone and whether you tried his methods before finding Ray Peat? Whether you had success? What your criticisms of him are?

Just interested. Share thoughts.

 

[Vinero]

I found Matt Stone before Ray Peat. And it was very refreshing to find out it's ok to eat unlimited carbs and calories to heal your metabolism after low-carbing.
I like Matt Stone because he is so anti-mainstream, just like Peat is.
His dietary recommendations overlap greatly with Peat in my opinion:
-Don't drink too much water
-Eat plenty of salt to taste
-Eat saturated fat instead of unsaturated fat
-Never go hungry, eat enough calories
-Eat enough protein
-Eat enough carbs
-Don't exercise too much
-Don't be afraid of sugar

Seems pretty Peaty to me?
The only difference between Peat and Matt is that Matt isn't afraid to eat unlimited starches.
Matt said that most people do best on a mix of both starch and sugar, and when people cut out either one of them entirely they can run into problems.
In my experience Matt is right on this one. Cutting out starch completely doesn't work for me.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Cutting out starch completely doesn't work for me.

Drop the stuff man, experience this freedom

 

[pboy]

hes cooler than sliced bread

 

[Amazoniac]

hes cooler than sliced bread

In fact, one of his books (Food for Mood) has a sliced bread on the cover!

 

[tara]

I found it interesting and helpful to read Matt Stone's writing, though I don't want to follow all his general guidelines. I can imagine that it would be an improvement for many people, especially people who have been chronically restricting food.
I did a stint of unrestricted eating (except still lowish PUFA) for a few months after reading Stone. I certainly had more energy, which was good, but it didn't help my key issue. I was trying out eating a lot more wheat - biscuits and bread etc, after going many years largely avoiding it. I'd been avoiding aged cheese for a long time too, and those things still didn't seem to agree with me - but those were sensitivities of mine that not everyone would experience the same.
I think his general protein recommendations are lower than Peat's, and I'm inclined to trust Peat on this. I think it would be possible to follow Stone's advice and some people might miss out on particular microntrients that they are short of. Even if lots of bread agrees with you, it takes a bit of calcium and other minerals to balance it, etc.

 

[NotSoAlpha]

Well, I mean I like how anti-mainstream he is.

It's just that... his approach requires you to eat enormous amounts of food. like 3000 calories minimum.

This is very difficult to do without resorting to drinking Butter-Coffees, aka drinking lots of liquid fat. Thing is, he's all about carbs, and I agree carbs are better for metabolism than fat. But it's very hard to eat lots of carbs as they are so filling. 2 sandwichs and I'm full for 4-5 hours, eating more while that's still digesting will make me sick and uncomfortable. 2 sandwichs is only 60g/240cal carbs from the bread. Add some butter and some meat to it and it brings it to around 400cal all up. In reality 600 cal is about the most I can eat in a single meal.

So really, getting 3000 cals from SOLID FOOD is damn near physically impossible for some people. I would have get up in the middle of the night to make a meal.

Now, liquid calories seem like the way but orange juice is very expensive. $2.50/liter for the cheap stuff and $4/liter for the quality stuff. I guess I could just drink lots of fizzy drink like lemonade or something.

WHICH BRINGS ME TO MY NEXT QUESTION

Is it acceptable to use FAT to crank up your calorie intake even though it's not metabolically stimulating like carbs?

My idea is making the "BULLETPROOF COFFEE" (2tbsp butter 2tbsp coconut oil). However I will also add lots of sugar to it as well. And drinking like 2 of these a day. Each one is ~400 cals.

Do you think this is a good idea?

 

[Curt :-)]

I never looked into his writing too much as he just doesn't look like a healthy human being, and so many people got fat from Eat For Heat.
He seems too concerned with carbs and calories to worry about vitamins and minerals.
I recall him ridiculing Dr Peat at some point, which is like Kim Kardashian calling Einstein a dumbass.

 

[SQu]

I also found him first and am sorry about that. I had only minor improvements and they didnt last. I put on all my weight then. Not to say I wouldn't have anyway once giving up the crazy dieting but I think with RP I might have avoided some, plus the loss of strength, muscle, whitening of hair. If only because I would have understood better what was happening to me. I am still climbing back out of that hole 3 years later. I think RP is more radical and love that he explains in depth. The thing I think matt does really well is help people be less hung up on food and think he does wonderful job of helping people redevelop a healthy attitude to eating.

 

[tara]

It's just that... his approach requires you to eat enormous amounts of food. like 3000 calories minimum.
....
So really, getting 3000 cals from SOLID FOOD is damn near physically impossible for some people. I would have get up in the middle of the night to make a meal.

You know 3000 cals is not particularly enormous? According to youreatopia, it's roughly what the average non-dieting, weight-stable adult man eats. More for younger men (~under 26). So if this seems enormous to you, I guess you are accustomed to eating much less? If so, that might be a key contributor to your health/metabolic issues. I agree with Matt about eating at least that much if you want to give your metabolism a chance to come up to speed. Continuing to eat much less than this is likely keeping yourself in energy deficit, and seems likely to cause more damage.
Eating normal amounts can initially be difficult for people whose digestive system has atrophied and adapted to a semi-starvation diet. It might take a bit of training and a bit of discomfort to get it back into shape. In the meantime, you can choose food that is easy to digest, and drink lots of calories too. 5 - 6 meals a day may make sense.

Now, liquid calories seem like the way but orange juice is very expensive. $2.50/liter for the cheap stuff and $4/liter for the quality stuff. I guess I could just drink lots of fizzy drink like lemonade or something.

WHICH BRINGS ME TO MY NEXT QUESTION

Is it acceptable to use FAT to crank up your calorie intake even though it's not metabolically stimulating like carbs?

My idea is making the "BULLETPROOF COFFEE" (2tbsp butter 2tbsp coconut oil). However I will also add lots of sugar to it as well. And drinking like 2 of these a day. Each one is ~400 cals.

Do you think this is a good idea?

If budget is tight, you do the best you can with the resources you have. After a bit of trial and error, I've found one cheap commercial brand of OJ that seems to agree with me if I add ~1tsp baking soda per liter (don't try just adding baking soda into a full bottle - it fizzes a lot). So I watch out and buy plenty when it goes on sale. After trying several brands, there's one clear commercial apple juice that seems to be OK for me, so I buy plenty of that when it's on sale too. AJ is cheaper than OJ, and for some people it works better than OJ. For a while I was adding sugar to OJ, too, but now I'm snacking on more solid sweet stuff, I don't want it in the juice too.
I think it is reasonable to use a bit of sat. fat to increase calories, and if you've been chronically undereating, your body may be very pleased to get some. Having a bit of fat with every meal and snack can help with absorption of nutrients. It's probably still good to get more of your fuel from carbs than fat.
But I think 4tbsps fat at one go in cup of coffee may be a bit unbalanced. Unless you were planning on putting twice as much sugar in it too? In which case your cuppa is probably up to about 800 cals, two of them are half way to your calorie target, and you shouldn't have too much trouble getting the rest in. In this case, it would be good to make sure you are getting lots of minerals etc in the rest of your diet.

If you use a bit of butter or coconut oil for frying eggs, liver, fish, etc, slather your spuds with butter, add a good amount of whole milk and/or cream to your coffee or find anothe way to eat eat/drink milk (hot chocolate, milk pudding, farmers cheese), it's probably not hard to get up to 100 grams of fat, which is about 30% of 3000 cals. If you can get 150grams of protein and 400 g carbs, your about there. This is not a prescription, just one way to put it together. Some people say they do better with much less fat than this, others need the fat to feel well, so you get to play around with it and see what works for you.

 

[tara]

I gained weight following Matt's suggestions too. But then I lost it trying some of the RBTI ideas, and was happy to be gaining again when i started in on a more Peat-inspired diet. I've read several people saying that Matt (and Josh Rubin for that matter) don't look healthy. As far as I can tell, mostly they mean that they are not lean. Since the dominant message is that lean and healthy go together, it's not surprising that people see it this way. But it doesn't really give much of an indication of their health, and they both say they feel and are healthier now than when they were leaner, so I'm a bit skeptical about people judging their health from pictures on the web.

I've read of lots of people (but not all) getting fatter by eating for heat too. Quite a few of these people (but not all) report simultaneous improvements in health. For people who have been chronically undereating, it would be normal and healthy to gain weight when they start eating enough. For some people, getting fat may represent an improvement in health.

I also think it's likely that refeeding with more of Peat's ideas in mind, especially about protein and micronutrient needs, could lead to a better nourished recovery. For some people whose metabolisms are depressed from being very restrictive about quantity and/or quality of food, getting the best of both - enough food and a reasonable quality - may be best. But it may well be that for some people the struggle is just to eat enough, and this may the top priority for a while, if they can't manage both.
Matt's approach speaks to them.
I read Matt as having a lot of respect for Peat, though I've also seen him take the p*** out of some of his followers.

 

[NotSoAlpha]

You know 3000 cals is not particularly enormous? According to youreatopia, it's roughly what the average non-dieting, weight-stable adult man eats. More for younger men (~under 26). So if this seems enormous to you, I guess you are accustomed to eating much less?

Ahhh this is interesting.

Tara I have also just been reading your thread about undereating.

So really I should be eating 3000 calories minimum for recovery? And aiming for 4000? As a 6ft tall 25 year old male?

What counts as sedentary anyway - is it literally sitting on your arse all day? I mean I go for hour long walks most days. I guess that would classify as "light activity"?

I tracked my calories and I realised I only eat like 1700 a day. And this is eating more food than I used to as well. Subjectively, 1700cals feels like eating a lot of food.

It was eye-opening reading about the Ancel Keys starvation experiment. They were eating like 1600 cals a day and it was making them crazy. I'm thinking... wut? 1600 is what I eat on a good day! No wonder I'm so messed up.

I feel really enlightened now. The cause of my health problems must be primarily not eating enough food for a very long period of time.

Tara can I just say thank you for being so helpful and knowledgeable? I cannot believe, all these times I've been to a doctor complaining of this and that, not ONCE have I ever been asked how much food I eat.

Do you think the medical system is a complete joke Tara? I do. I think being a doctor is purely a status symbol. (With the exception of surgeons - they have a unique and necessary role.)

 

[tara]

You know 3000 cals is not particularly enormous? According to youreatopia, it's roughly what the average non-dieting, weight-stable adult man eats. More for younger men (~under 26). So if this seems enormous to you, I guess you are accustomed to eating much less?

Ahhh this is interesting.

Tara I have also just been reading your thread about undereating.

So really I should be eating 3000 calories minimum for recovery? And aiming for 4000? As a 6ft tall 25 year old male?

What counts as sedentary anyway - is it literally sitting on your arse all day? I mean I go for hour long walks most days. I guess that would classify as "light activity"?

I tracked my calories and I realised I only eat like 1700 a day. And this is eating more food than I used to as well. Subjectively, 1700cals feels like eating a lot of food.

It was eye-opening reading about the Ancel Keys starvation experiment. They were eating like 1600 cals a day and it was making them crazy. I'm thinking... wut? 1600 is what I eat on a good day! No wonder I'm so messed up.

I feel really enlightened now. The cause of my health problems must be primarily not eating enough food for a very long period of time.

Tara can I just say thank you for being so helpful and knowledgeable? I cannot believe, all these times I've been to a doctor complaining of this and that, not ONCE have I ever been asked how much food I eat.

Do you think the medical system is a complete joke Tara? I do. I think being a doctor is purely a status symbol. (With the exception of surgeons - they have a unique and necessary role.)

According to Gwyneth Olwyn at youreatopia.com, yes, minimum 3000 every day, more if you are hungry for more. It is common for people to hit periods of extreme hunger during refeeding, and it's apparently most helpful to go with it. I found all her articles really worth reading eye-opening and thought-provoking on several fronts.
Apparently it is common to find recovery from under-eating challenging - there is a bit of relevant information there, esp about stages of recovery. There is also a small but serious risk of refeeding syndrome during early recovery, so it might be good to see if you can find a doctor who knows something about that, or at least read what the signs are so you can get help quickly if you need it.

I think there are some serious systemic problems with medical systems in many countries, not least because they currently have to function in an environment where profit-motive often takes precedence over people's health. I think the human body is immensely complicated, and doctors know a lot, but none of them can know everything, they are vulnerable to drug company influence, and some of them have succumbed to the pull to arrogance, so they have trouble acknowledging the places they are ignorant, or that they are vulnerable to inappropriate biases.
I also have had several occasions to be appreciative of our medical system and the skilled and committed people in it. Several people in my family have been restored from life-threatening conditions by the local hospital.
So far I haven't found a doctor who has been able to help me recover from my severe chronic issues, or have an informative conversation with me a bout what might be going on. I haven't given up looking yet.

Take care.

 

[Green]

I have a picture that I always look at of when I was 10 lbs heavier with perfect skin. It was taken when I was on the ssri Paxil. It helped with my blushing problem too, which is the reason I took it. I wouldn't take it again regardless. I'll try to eat more calories. I always think about Ray Peat and the time he said his calorie requirement was close to 8000 IIRC and after he took a supplement of thyroid it was half that.

 

[Jennifer]

I just want to second tara's suggestion as well as youreatopia's in regards to calorie consumption.

Before I delved into refeeding via Matt Stone's and youreatopia's guidelines, I did some research on the history of calorie consumption in the US to help me decide if my venture into refeeding was justified. I found this old dietary recommendation chart from a Better Homes and Gardens cookbook from 1958. Supposedly the 1950's was the decade the US consumed the least amount of calories in "recorded" history. When comparing men of the same age group in the BHG cookbook and their recommended values, they fall in line with what the Minnesota Starvation Experiment concluded almost 2 decades earlier that the men needed for daily maintenance calories (3200).

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_PlZN4MWvkq0/S_7-c ... 5B3%5D.jpg

If I remember correctly, all the participants in the MSE were of average height and weight so for an adult male who is even taller (6+ feet), 3200 calories a day seems like a completely reasonable amount for a guy to eat, in my opinion.

As for Matt Stone, regardless of whether I agree with his dietary views or not, I have to say he was extremely kind and helpful to me in the past. I wrote him back during his RBTI phase and told him about my situation with the back fractures and osteoporosis and asked if he thought RBTI might be helpful for me. He thought it would be worth a try and sent me all the info he had on it and gave me his number and told me to call him. I did and he was really helpful. He took time out of his day to talk with me and asked for nothing in return. He's a good guy in my book!

 

[tara]

:) @Jennifer - nice chart.

 

[Peatri Dish]

deleted due to rudeness and arrogance

 

[Zachs]

I like him. He was the first to help me get out of the paleo low carb dogma. I like how he wasnt afraid to ditch that way of eating and explore other possibilities. He also lead me to D Roddy and Ray Peat.

 

[tara]

deleted due to rudeness and arrogance

:) I agree that Peat provides lots of valuable information, not a diet prescription, and expects us to think for ourselves. [Rest of reply obsolete :) ]

 

[Peatri Dish]

Ha Ha! Caught me!