Well Well. NY Times Posted An Article Regarding Salt

[Uncaged]

And it appears they finally see the light. Maybe they've been reading the work of Ray Peat?

Scant Evidence Behind the Advice About Salt

 

[lvysaur]

The NYT just attaches itself to whatever drives more views. People want to hear that salt is healthy, just like they want to hear that meat and fat is healthy, and vegetables are unnecessary. But a broken clock is right twice a day.

I recently read an opinion piece in the NYT about sex/gender equality. I predicted that it would be universally unpopular, and it was indeed hated by both sides of the aisle, because it was a brutally honest piece about reality, and claimed things that both the delusional left/right hate.

 

[paymanz]

Lol yes all people already know salt is bad , right now saying salt is good brings more view to their website.

 

[burtlancast]

They say there's scant evidence about salt restriction helping in heart failure.

Well,...

High potassium together with low sodium in diet and intravenous fluids has been observed clinically by Sodi-Pallares to have a beneficial effect on chronic heart failure and on acute myocardial infarction. Recent studies from the laboratory of Ling indicate that high potassium, low sodium environments can partially restore damaged cell proteins to their normal undamaged configuration. It follows that by this mechanism cell proteins damaged by the chronic or acute hypoxia of heart disease are probably partly repaired when high potassium, low sodium therapy is used.

Successful therapy of heart disease by high potassium together with low sodium in accord with predictions from the associated cation, structured wa... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Kartoffel]

They say there's scant evidence about salt restriction helping in heart failure.

Well,...


Successful therapy of heart disease by high potassium together with low sodium in accord with predictions from the associated cation, structured wa... - PubMed - NCBI

I think Ray would disagree that Ling's in vitro experiments should be used to rationalize low-sodium diets in an in vivo context. The evidence clearly shows that low sodium diets are harmful, especially for sick and elderly people.

 

[charlie]

The evidence clearly shows that low sodium diets are harmful, especially for sick and elderly people.

Or possibly low sodium with low potassium diets were harmful. What if the potassium intake was high?

 

[Kartoffel]

Or possibly low sodium with low potassium diets were harmful. What if the potassium intake was high?

I am not sure what aspects of Ling's work he is referring to exactely, but high potassium (or high potassium foods) intake is generally very beneficial. So, yes, I think the benefits of low sodium and high potassium diets would be even greater, if you made it a normal sodium high potassium diet. Add plenty of magnesium and calcium and things are gonna look even better.

 

[LucH]

Or possibly low sodium with low potassium diets were harmful. What if the potassium intake was high?

Yes, that's the worst situation, combining 2 problems.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently asked the Institute of Medicine (IOM) to reevaluate the evidence relating to sodium intake and cardiovascular risk, and its 2013 report found that there was no benefit for restricting sodium intake below 2,300 milligrams per day. In fact, it found that there may be adverse health outcomes.111

A Cochrane meta-analysis of almost 170 studies found that low-sodium interventions lowered blood pressure only minimally while significantly raising levels of kidney hormones, stress hormones, and unhealthy triglycerides. The authors of the Cochrane analysis (which is usually seen as the gold standard of research reviews) concluded that low-salt diets might lead to an overall negative effect on health based on increases in hormones, “bad” cholesterol, and triglycerides.119

Salt restriction also increases fasting norepinephrine, a substance that increases heart rate.
This is one reason why low-salt diets (122) have been implicated in increasing the risk of heart attacks: by reducing blood flow to the heart. The increase in norepinephrine on low-salt diets may even produce cardiac hypertrophy, overgrowth of the heart, which can lead to heart failure.123
(…)
Based on these data, an intake of sodium between 3 and 6 grams per day is likely the optimal range for most of us. Less than 2,300 milligrams per day or more than 6,000 milligrams per day is associated with an increased risk of death and cardiovascular events—but the risk is higher with low salt intakes than high salt intakes.
Note: 3 gr sodium = 7.5 gr crystal salt (refined).
As is clear from the medical literature, as well as the population- based studies, low-salt guidelines are not “the ideal.” They are not even innocuous. We may someday discover that the low-salt guidelines created more heart disease than they ever prevented. In the final analysis, they may even have been a contributing factor in the greatest public health challenge of our time: the rising epidemic of diabetes, caused in part by an increasingly common yet little-known phenomenon called “internal starvation.”

If your read French, I'm summarizing Dicolantonio's book on this link:
The salt Fix


111, 119,122, 123
References from the book "the Salt Fix" by James Dicolantonio

 

[LucH]

Who is Dr. James DiNicolantonio?
Dr. James DiNicolantonio is a cardiovascular research scientist and doctor of pharmacy at Saint Luke’s Mid America Heart Institute in Kansas City, Missouri, and author of “The Salt Fix” and “Superfuel”. Dr. DiNicolantonio serves as the Associate Editor of Nutrition and British Medical Journal’s (BMJ) Open Heart, a journal published in partnership with the British Cardiovascular Society. He is the author or coauthor of approximately 200 publications in the medical literature. He is also on the editorial advisory boards of several medical journals.

 

[burtlancast]

I think Ray would disagree that Ling's in vitro experiments should be used to rationalize low-sodium diets in an in vivo context. The evidence clearly shows that low sodium diets are harmful, especially for sick and elderly people.

Lol.
Did you read about Sodi Pallares ?
He's actually the Dr who developed modern ECG.

He treated thousands of patients for heart failure with low sodium/high potassium diets. His own mother was his very first patient.

 

[burtlancast]

So, yes, I think the benefits of low sodium and high potassium diets would be even greater, if you made it a normal sodium high potassium diet.

When you ingest high amounts of potassium, it causes a loss of sodium through urine.

So, it's almost the same as a low sodium diet with normal potassium.

 

[burtlancast]

Salt restriction also increases fasting norepinephrine, a substance that increases heart rate.

I think there was a thread here proving with scientific data that the mechanism by which salt increased blood pressure was by augmenting the secretion of adrenaline, causing a vasoconstriction, and not by an increased blood volume as everybody thought.

Salt Increases Adrenaline Study

Excess salt stimulates production of adrenalin and causes hypertension

A review article by researchers at Boston University School of Medicine (BUSM) debunks the widely-believed concept that hypertension, or high blood pressure, is the result of excess salt causing an increased blood volume, exerting extra pressure on the arteries. Published online in the Journal of Hypertension, the study demonstrates that excess salt stimulates the sympathetic nervous system to produce adrenalin, causing artery constriction and hypertension.
The research was led by Irene Gavras, MD, and Haralambos Gavras, MD, both professors of medicine at BUSM.
"The purpose of this paper is to correct an erroneous concept that has prevailed for many years, even though scientific evidence has mounted against it," said Irene Gavras, who is also a physician in Boston Medical Center's Hypertension practice.
The term "volume-expanded hypertension" implies that excess salt leads to the retention of extra fluid within the arterial circulatory system, causing an increase in blood volume and added pressure on the arterial walls. However, research has shown that conditions characterized by the expansion of blood volume from other causes, such as the secretion of antidiuretic hormone or the excessive elevation of blood sugar, do not cause a rise in blood pressure because the extra fluid is accommodated by the distention of capillaries and veins.

"The body's circulatory system is a highly flexible vascular system with the capacity to open up new capillaries and distend veins in order to accommodate increased fluid volume," said Irene Gavras.
Through a review of numerous studies, the researchers demonstrated that the mechanism of hypertension resulting from the excessive consumption and retention of salt stimulates the sympathetic nervous system in the brain to increase adrenaline production. The increased adrenalin being circulated throughout the body causes the arteries to constrict, which results in resistance to blood flow and a decrease in circulatory volume.
The over-activation of the sympathetic nervous system - part of the autonomic nervous system that helps maintain the body's homeostasis - has been recognized clinically as a characteristic of hypertension that accompanies renal failure, which is the most typical example of elevated blood pressure from excessive salt retention. Diuretics, which remove excess salt, are widely used to treat this type of hypertension. However, this study provides convincing evidence that the sympathetic nervous system should be the focus of further investigations into treatments for hypertension.
"The implication of our findings shows that the optimal treatment for hypertension, for cases associated with renal failure, should not only include diuretics but also the use of drugs that block the central sympathetic nervous system," said Irene Gavras.

 

[Kartoffel]

I think there was a thread here proving with scientific data that the mechanism by which salt increased blood pressure was by augmenting the secretion of adrenaline, causing a vasoconstriction, and not by an increased blood volume as everybody thought.

Salt Increases Adrenaline Study

Excess salt stimulates production of adrenalin and causes hypertension

It would be nice, if you could post the actual studies, and not articles about them. As far as this one is concerned, it looks like Haidut already pointed out the several flaws in the research design.

 

[paymanz]

Im wondering to what degree salt restriction affects blood levels of salt, your adrenal and kidneys try their best to preserve it.

 

[paymanz]

I think there was a thread here proving with scientific data that the mechanism by which salt increased blood pressure was by augmenting the secretion of adrenaline, causing a vasoconstriction, and not by an increased blood volume as everybody thought.

Salt Increases Adrenaline Study

Excess salt stimulates production of adrenalin and causes hypertension

Excess salt! What is excess salt?!

 

[LucH]

Excess salt! What is excess salt?!

Heaney RP suggests an approach to set nutrient intake requirements that is based upon physiology.
"The requirement of a given nutrient can be said best when this intake calls for the least adaptation or compensation by a wealthy organism. For sodium, evidence indicates that such an intake is typically between 3000 and 5000 mg/d."
=> 3 gr Sodium = 7.5 gr salt. => Between 7.5 and 12 gr salt is optimal (if you get enough potassium too, 4.7 mg).
Source:
Heaney R.P. 2015. Making sense of the science of sodium. Nutr Today 50(2): 63-66.

 

[paymanz]

Heaney RP suggests an approach to set nutrient intake requirements that is based upon physiology.
"The requirement of a given nutrient can be said best when this intake calls for the least adaptation or compensation by a wealthy organism. For sodium, evidence indicates that such an intake is typically between 3000 and 5000 mg/d."
=> 3 gr Sodium = 7.5 gr salt. => Between 7.5 and 12 gr salt is optimal (if you get enough potassium too, 4.7 mg).
Source:
Heaney R.P. 2015. Making sense of the science of sodium. Nutr Today 50(2): 63-66.

Ray doesnt recommend excess salt! Thats my point.

 

[LucH]

I'm not talking about excess but optimal range, what puts less stress onto hormones and organs.

 

[paymanz]

I'm not talking about excess but optimal range, what puts less stress onto hormones and organs.

Salt to taste

 

[LucH]

Salt to taste

Usually, yes. Most people can use "taste" as thermostat, when you're balanced.
But there is at least one exception: Under or above setpoint, the brain modifies mouth sensors (specie protection) : Reward upon consumption when level is too low.
This optimal amount of salt can differ widely from person to person, depending on our reserves.
Some people may need more salt when suffering from hypothyroidism, adrenal insufficiency, when drinking much coffee or cola (diuretic), when fasting and so on.
Nb: We usually have reserves for 3 - 5 days (in skin).
NB2: Principle of opposites: The sensors of the tongue are more sensitive to detect the presence of salt when necessary. Protection of the species (ancient times).