Weight Training, Building Muscle, Lossing Fat, Health Etc

superhuman

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Joined
May 31, 2013
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1,124
Hello

I was wondering if any of you guys are serious into bodybuilding or athlethics. Im into lifting weights and looking great with some good amount of muscle like Brad Pitt in Troja or like an model or fitness model.
So my main goal is to build some muscle and loose fat.

Would be really cool if others on this forum following RP`s diet advice managed to do the same and could share their experiences with it.

In terms of my questions are these.

1. What have you found as an optimal workout frequency for building muscle? there is so much disussions out there in the fitness industry some claiming overtraining are easy to achieve some say its impossible. Some say low volume/frequency and high intensity are key to building muscle like say working out 3 times a week just hitting 1 muscle one time a week, then there are som saying you have to hit it 2-3 times a week etc.
What have been your guyses experience? based on building muscle, health, thyroid and everything.

2. In terms of nutrition there is alot of stuff there as well. Esp in regards to protein. I know RP says one never needs more then 150g a day, then there are some saying for lean people that workout and want to loose bodyfat you need as much as 3.1g/lean body mass in kg. Then there are some that say you only need 80-120grams.
What has been your experience with all this?

Maybe i forgot something more but fire away with what you have learned along the way and also provide pictures if you can :D
 

aquaman

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Aug 9, 2013
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1,297
I think the help you get on this site will be limited (but would be a nice surprise if it's good!). Mainly because Peat's work is about using other markers as your test of health, not looking ripped

But focusing on pulse and temperatures, digestion, bowel movements, sleep, general anxiety levels, sexual functions etc.

These take precedent over losing body fat as a sign of good health.

Here's a few pointers I have learned over last 18 months (I'm 33 and have been working out relatively regularly since 18). Most of this comes from working with a personal trainer who is *different* to the norm, as well as applying it to Peat's work.

- your training will be very determined by your own starting point and body situation. Not just your experience but your response to stress. THis can be seen by heart rate and pulse comparisons before and 1 hour after training. Continually elevated pulse and temp = stress hormones too much. Also my sleep is affected if i exercise too hard in the day, so I can notice it this way

- it's possible to build muscle with low training volume. Muscle-mind connection is extremely important and allows this to happen, as well as needing less recovery.

- I've added about 20 pounds in the last 9 months (now 212), partly because I wanted to, and partly because of the Peat diet. I have more body fat but this is part of plan over winter to get health back. My training now is focused on 25-40 minute sessions (10 min warm up), 2-4 times a week depending on rest, recovery, diet, sleep etc.

I'm still perhaps overdoing it at times, as my sleep is affected regularly. I don't get injured or sick like I used to when I'd train regularly though.

- I generally now do 5-0-5-0 timing (5 up, no pause, 5 down). I have seen this build muscle with less volume, works for me. On the eccentric contraction, make it a genuine contraction, this takes practice and bio feedback.

- at 5-0-5-0 at 6 reps, one exercise will take around 60 seconds. with 2 mins rest between sets to allow recovery, 3 sets takes around 10 mins with setup.

- 4 exercises takes 40 mins - this is what I limit to. Often less.

- more carbs help build muscle and help recovery, and you can eat a ton after training

- i think around 1 gram of protein per pound is more than enough. For me this would be 210, so even too much. 0.6/0.7 seems good to me.

- for a 180lb male, I think 120-150grams would be enough if you are getting enough carbs.

- 12 exercises in 3 sessions isn't much per week, but if you bring the right intensity and focus you can grow, especially if eating enough.
 
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Curt :-)

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Nov 22, 2013
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185
Hey brother, good question :) I shall share my thoughts

Firstly, I think there is no optimal frequency. Just listen to your body. I know that's the lamest advice ever, but this is the only way forward. Trust me on this one; I've studied all of the great strength coaches, Charles Poliquin in particular, and they have rigid programs that don't take into account your ability to recover from workouts. It's so stupid it makes me wanna punch a puppy (joking- they're too cute to punch). They think the body works on some strength training biological/circadian cycle of 2 days on/1 day off, or whatever the fad is at that time. Your body does not give a ***t what your program says; it's just words on paper. You're either ready to train again of you're not. I did this ***t for years man, completely ignoring the fact that it just doesn't work (reminds me of my cardio days). Some people can get away with training like they're possessed, others (like us hypo folks), just can't. It sucks, coz I'd love to be able to train everyday (love that ***t!), but my recovery is just not there yet (it is improving since starting Peaty a few months ago).
I generally train every second day, but my workouts are brief and only so intense. If I push particularly hard, I'll take 2 days off, no sweat.

In regards to nutrition, I think protein (and fat) recommendations are excessive in strength training circles because people tend to go low carb, and of course, the calories have to come from somewhere. 350 grams of protein and 50 grams of carbs? What the f**k?
 
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north

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Dec 21, 2013
Messages
156
Drink a ton of milk after training and OJ before :)
Thats how i Peatified my training.
I started getting size when i did compound-moves.
For me, progressively increasing in compound lifts and eating a ton during post workout time has given me better results in 8 months then everything i did before that, for like 5 years haha.
I train less, eat more. That gave me results.
3 days/week.
Deadlift + accessory
Bench + accessory
Squat + accessory.
Each takes about 45 min with chill warmup etc.
I learned that more is not better, seems to be very true when natural.
 
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aquaman

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Aug 9, 2013
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prototypejohn said:
Drink a ton of milk after training and OJ before :)
Thats how i Peatified my training.
I started getting size when i did compound-moves.
For me, progressively increasing in compound lifts and eating a ton during post workout time has given me better results in 8 months then everything i did before that, for like 5 years haha.
I train less, eat more. That gave me results.
3 days/week.
Deadlift + accessory
Bench + accessory
Squat + accessory.
Each takes about 45 min with chill warmup etc.
I learned that more is not better, seems to be very true when natural.

how many exercises per workout? Is it only 2 ?

how many sets and reps per set?
 
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S

superhuman

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1,124
prototypejohn said:
Drink a ton of milk after training and OJ before :)
Thats how i Peatified my training.
I started getting size when i did compound-moves.
For me, progressively increasing in compound lifts and eating a ton during post workout time has given me better results in 8 months then everything i did before that, for like 5 years haha.
I train less, eat more. That gave me results.
3 days/week.
Deadlift + accessory
Bench + accessory
Squat + accessory.
Each takes about 45 min with chill warmup etc.
I learned that more is not better, seems to be very true when natural.


Thats great and i agree with you in terms of your muscle building program.

What about fat loss? how many calories do you eat? what is the macro nutrient breakdown in terms of fat,protein,carbs. Whats your body fat % ? etc :)
 
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north

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Dec 21, 2013
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Aquaman:

Per workout, i try to limit my training to no more than 9 sets in total (working sets). Usually 7-8.
I also do warmup-sets for the compound lifts.
For example:
Warmup: 50% of max weight x 3 rep, 60%x3, 70%x3, 80%x3.
Rest 4-5 min.
Deadlift 3 sets
Weighted chins 3 set
Pendlay row 2 set

I usually go about 6 weeks then i make a change, for ex:
Deadlift 4 Set (less reps)
Pendlay row 2 set
Pullups 1 set
Db Rear fly 1 set

I usually stay in 5-8 rep range. For some smaller stuff like pushups or if i do only 1 set i go higher like 7-10 reps.


Superhuman:
I was pretty skinny before i started training like this, like 73kg. Now im 84. (3kg of those are from gained fat).
Before Peat i was circulating at 6-8% BF during different periods. It was pretty easy since i did intermittent fasting.
My diet eventually caused me to crash (tons of PUFA and starches also late nights), i found Peat, thought i have nothing to loose and for now i will not prioritize BF% first. Now im at 10-11% BF, which ive been for about 2 months and im planning on staying at this for now, maybe go down to 8-9 as long as i feel good.

For training days i eat about 3300kcal which for me is about 20% surplus. On resting days i eat at maybe -5% - 0% lower than daily requirement. I circle fats and carbs. T-day i eat about 500g carbs, R-day about 300. I keep protein at around 160-170g/day. Then fill out the rest with fat to get my kcal right.

I have noticed very good results lately, pretty sure thanks to Peat-eating!

I would propose that the most important thing to get good results are:
*Keep a log, write down weights reps etc. Try to improve all the time and if you cant add weight, add a rep.
*Keep it simple and dont do a lot of unnecessary stuff (I got bigger arms then ever when i never did direct armwork, only from heavy bench and weighted chins).
*Eat a ton post workout.
*Kcal surplus on training day, less on rest day (depending on your goal. Go minus for fat-loss but always surplus on training day)

This is what works best for me :)
 
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T

tca300

Guest
ok bud :) Consuming more than .82 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight wont benefit you any
more. So shoot for .82 grams per pound of bodyweight ( of complete protein, not including egg whites or gelatin )
Optimal training frequency is working each muscle 2 times per week, which is like working a certain
muscle every 4-6 days, unless you have been training consistently for several months, then you should take a few week or even a month off.
Ray peats diet is pretty good for building muscle, but not optimal. I say this because Starch is superior for building muscle than sugar, ( because of insulin ) but is extra muscle worth the negative effects of starch?? I will leave that up to you.
I have been weightlifting for 13+ years, and know my stuff. If I didn't address a certain question or if you have any other questions just ask me.
 
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superhuman

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Messages
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tca300 said:
ok bud :) Consuming more than .82 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight wont benefit you any
more. So shoot for .82 grams per pound of bodyweight ( of complete protein, not including egg whites or gelatin )
Optimal training frequency is working each muscle 2 times per week, which is like working a certain
muscle every 4-6 days, unless you have been training consistently for several months, then you should take a few week or even a month off.
Ray peats diet is pretty good for building muscle, but not optimal. I say this because Starch is superior for building muscle than sugar, ( because of insulin ) but is extra muscle worth the negative effects of starch?? I will leave that up to you.
I have been weightlifting for 13+ years, and know my stuff. If I didn't address a certain question or if you have any other questions just ask me.


Thanx a ton.

Yeah then i will drop the starch for sure. I have a good amount of muscle now and i dont want to be a huge guy, i just want some muscles but most importantly i want to get really lean. Like 5-8% bodyfat but without suffering by going very low kcals, and all that stuff. Like i want to thrive and have low bodyfat and ofc low estrogen and all that.

How would you approach that in terms of nutrition?

Like how low fat? meal frequency? thyroid supplements etc?

Im a very active guy, lifting weights, doing sports have an active job.
 
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Sapien

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2022
Messages
418
Location
USA
Hello

I was wondering if any of you guys are serious into bodybuilding or athlethics. Im into lifting weights and looking great with some good amount of muscle like Brad Pitt in Troja or like an model or fitness model.
So my main goal is to build some muscle and loose fat.

Would be really cool if others on this forum following RP`s diet advice managed to do the same and could share their experiences with it.

In terms of my questions are these.

1. What have you found as an optimal workout frequency for building muscle? there is so much disussions out there in the fitness industry some claiming overtraining are easy to achieve some say its impossible. Some say low volume/frequency and high intensity are key to building muscle like say working out 3 times a week just hitting 1 muscle one time a week, then there are som saying you have to hit it 2-3 times a week etc.
What have been your guyses experience? based on building muscle, health, thyroid and everything.

2. In terms of nutrition there is alot of stuff there as well. Esp in regards to protein. I know RP says one never needs more then 150g a day, then there are some saying for lean people that workout and want to loose bodyfat you need as much as 3.1g/lean body mass in kg. Then there are some that say you only need 80-120grams.
What has been your experience with all this?

Maybe i forgot something more but fire away with what you have learned along the way and also provide pictures if you can :D
im 10 years late to your question, but I may have information that interests you. Below I am posting my response to a thread titled "exercise the Ray Peat way?"


This is a topic I have been pondering as of late, as a peaty young male looking to build muscle safely and effectively. Ray mentions that muscle mass is beneficial as it increases RMB, and also cited studies that show bodybuilders live longer. However, he has concerns with the eccentric stuff and lactic acid production.

So in summary- a good training routine is one that builds muscle, avoids eccentric movements, and minimizes muscle oxygen debt (i.e, "the pump) as it increases lactic acid.

He once said something along the lines of "brief, infrequent use of muscle is good" (probably butchered the quote but something along those line)

His advice reminded me of a famous bodybuilder in the 80's, Mike Mentzer, who postulated that all bodybuilders are overtraining, and the principals of muscle growth only required a brief and infrequent session to momentary muscular failure. Interestingly, in Synchronicity fashion, I discovered Ray's work just weeks after discovering Mentzer. I noticed great crossover between the two. Mentzer actually cited Hans Selyes "the stress of life" in one of his books about the harms of overtraining, which blew me away. Even Mikes nutritional advice was peaty, emphasizing the importance of (simple) carbohydrates and sugar, and dispelling the myth of the whey(ste product) protein industry that you needed to overload the body with protein to build muscle.

He has some great lectures on youtube on the topic of HIT, specifically, his audio tapes: The logical path to successful bodybuilding are a MUST watch for anyone interested in the topic of building muscle. He was a very intelligent man, many regarded him as a philosopher, and after watching these tapes you will realize why. His articulate speaking manner and use of logic is extremely impressive. He dispels much of the authoritarian dogma in the fitness industry, and like Peat, attempts to teach one about the science behind the topic rather than just giving a protocol. In other words, he was a proponent of "Perceive, Think, Act".

In my opinion, the theory of High Intensity Training is the most logical, science backed theory of effective exercise, and is the antithesis of the current state of bodybuilding- high volume "pump" style workouts popularized by Arnold (Mentzer's arch nemesis).

His training was based on the work of a man named Arthur jones, the inventor of Nautilus equipment proved that brief exercise to failure is the optimal way to build muscle

There is a book titled "body by science" that goes into this in more detail for anyone interested. Mentzer also has serval books of his own

As peaty as all of this sounds, minimizing the amount of stress to the organism and only doing the bare minimum required, there is still the concern of both eccentric movements and lactic acid, albeit to a DRASTICALLY lower degree.

Coauthor of body by science, John Little (a friend and disciple of Mentzer), has a program that implements these principals of brief, infrequent maximal effort training, AND eliminates these two issues. I present to you: Max contraction training (link). He talks about how a scientist in the 50s proved great results simply by a maximal muscular contraction of just 1-6 seconds.

I have applied this routine to a degree, simply contracting a muscle as hard as possible either on its own or against an immovable object (isometric), briefly and infrequently, and I honestly have had better results doing this the past 2 months than in years of traditional bodybuilding. Each day I wake up in amazement of my progress. I will see muscles that I never knew I had; a couple days after a single pull up I noticed new muscles in my upper back that I had never seen before; after a single rep of a chest contraction I grew my stubborn upper chest more in one workout that I never seemed to build with years of bench press (
"Why I never bench press and you shouldn't either" ) .

Some examples of exercises I will do are: flexing bicep in maximal contracted position as hard as possible by using a doorknob, doing the concentric part of a pull up and maximally contracting for a few seconds at the top then dropping, contracting hamstring by lying down placing heel against the ground, holding the contracted portion of a "mountain climber" pose or sit up for abs, simply contracting my rhomboids or rear delts super hard, doing a "lateral raise" against the bottom of my work desk to provide an immovable resistance, placing my forearm against the back of my (opposite) hamstring and contracting my chest across my body, etc etc. Pretty much anything that you feel a contraction will be effective, you can play around yourself. Using weights in a manner shown in the max contraction video is probably just as if not more viable, but I have seen great results even without going to the gym. The many forms of Isometrics I mentioned, contracting against an immovable object, will provide great stimulation as it will recruit ALL of the possible muscle fibers MAXIMALLY. This is a key principal of HIT (henemens size principal), fatiguing the fast twitch muscle fibers. It can be achieved in any rep range by simply training to failure, but isometrics allow you to do so with minimal/no lactic acid as only one contraction is required.

There was a wrestler named the great gama, who is famous for going 5000-0 in his bouts (yes you read that right) , who touted the benefits of maximal isometric contractions that inspired me to use immovable objects instead of the weights shown in the max contraction video. (that and I don't have a training partner crazy enough to train this way with me lol) Essentially it is the same concept, providing maximal resistance, stimulating the fast twitch muscle fibers ( henemens size principal).

'One day after defeating an opponent much larger than he, someone asked him how he was able to get so strong.' "
“It’s really quite simple,” the Indian said good-naturedly. “In the Punjab, where I lived there was a large tree behind my house. Each morning I would rise up early, tie my belt around it, and try to throw it down.” “A tree?” the boy marveled. “For twenty years.” “And you did it?” “No, little one,” Gama smiled, “but after a tree…a man is easy.” Great gama (link) .

^ This may sound like "bro science", but it actually is an example of "Heneman's size principal" in action. When contracting against an immovable object, you are using ALL of your possible effort, thus stimulating fast twitch muscle fibers.

This all may sound unbelievable, too good to be true; is it really not only possible but OPTIMAL to train this brief and infrequently?; but when one considers the biochemistry of the subject, it makes sense. Muscles are ANEROBIC, the opposite of AEROBIC exercise. This is why sprinters have very muscular legs, while a marathon runner is almost always frail. High intensity, short duration exercise such as sprinting uses predominantly fast twitch, carbohydrate burning fibers, while jogging uses slow twitch fibers that rely on fat. It is the fast twitch muscle fibers that are a lot more prone to growth

While the principals of HIT have been demonstrated scientifically ( View: https://youtu.be/ag5YMTcAudw, View: https://youtu.be/NndeNFVf9eU , View: https://youtu.be/wVYEjFZAERw ), and shown to work in practice by the success of Mentzer and Dorian Yates, these principals have been all but forgotten. It was only through an unrelenting, thorough search for a logical approach to building muscle that I discovered HIT. I have always been unconvinced of the science of traditional bodybuilding; I would follow routines and wonder WHY 3 sets of 10 ( View: https://youtu.be/hddsfYdaZ1k ), why 2 minutes of rest, why not 53 seconds of rest? All of these arbitrary decrees never sat right with me. In science, there is no room for the arbitrary, The principals of HIT initially defined by Arthur Jones and popularized by Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates use science and logic, rather than the arbitrary tradition based programs that are popular today.

As to why it's unknown and forgotten, I don't really have a good answer other than the fact that we live in a "dark age" to some degree, with sheeple believing whatever the popular opinion is, rather than using the logical principals created by Aristotle to cultivate knowledge. It is through the use of logic and reason that I was able to discover ray peat and the community, rather than believing whatever info the dietary guidelines told me, and these same principals of logic led me to discover HIT. As a group of logic based people who Perceive, Think, Act; rather than cultivating information simply because an authority figure told you something, I know you all will really appreciate the science based approach of HIT.

The implications of this are staggering. The entire fitness industry is following the high volume approach simply out of tradition, not logic or science. I wonder how many people's lives would be changed with a proper approach to building muscle, how many more people would take up the sport if only minutes a week were necessary. Hell, a gym membership isn't even required! If anyone decided to try these principals out for themselves (after thorough evaluation of the logic of the theory, not per my advice , {Perceive Think Act!}), please update us with your results!

(P.S , I probably did a poor job explaining the exact science behind HIT, Henemens size principal, fast twitch muscles etc., I recommend reading the works of Dr Doug mcguff, Mike mentzer, Arthur jones and the content of Jay Vincent. This post was a spur of the moment thing after seeing this forum on the home page, I just did my best based on my knowledge of the topic)

(this is a copy of the post i made on the thread "exercise the ray peat way", I am posting it in other forums that seem related )
 

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