Weight Loss: Starch And Trytophan Are What Are Stopping You

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sladerunner69

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Serotonin just sucks in every way. It's the cause of poor sleep, excess rumination, not being in tune with your instincts, ADHD, autism, all neurodegenerative diseases, heart disease, everything. The only positive it has that I can think of is that it makes you wiser. It's truly a neurotransmitter of death.

It also imprints a feeling of dominance, fortifying the natural hierarchy and order of living things. Serotonin does have its place in the world.
 

redsun

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I can't deny it may have worked for you and some others on these forums, it just never worked for me. I should note that the only two times in my life I was healthy, I was in fact orthorexic (Strict keto, Strict very high carb very low fat, were the two). Not once have I been healthy while NOT tracking, so, at least for me, maybe my intuition is broken (Quite possible), but that method never works/worked for me. Also part of what broke my health last go around was in fact "not caring about tracking" anymore and eating whatever I cared to.

Ironically, intuitive eating can be difficult or near impossible for those of us with a history of orthorexic tendencies, myself included.

Intuitive eating is so opposite to orthorexic eating that it seems impossible to attempt it because years of obsessing over diet and ignoring our own cravings from within which leads to us not being able to "hear" what we truly crave. Many that attempt intuitive eating end up stuffing food down their gullet instead of actual intuitive eating because they have been restricting for so long they take it as a free reign to eat whatever they want. The mental stress caused by orthorexia causes one to flip the other extreme which is extreme overeating.
 

Cirion

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Ironically, intuitive eating can be difficult or near impossible for those of us with a history of orthorexic tendencies, myself included.

Intuitive eating is so opposite to orthorexic eating that it seems impossible to attempt it because years of obsessing over diet and ignoring our own cravings from within which leads to us not being able to "hear" what we truly crave. Many that attempt intuitive eating end up stuffing food down their gullet instead of actual intuitive eating because they have been restricting for so long they take it as a free reign to eat whatever they want. The mental stress caused by orthorexia causes one to flip the other extreme which is extreme overeating.

I hear what you're saying, but you must keep in mind I didn't count a single calorie or food until I reached the age of 24-25. And until age 24-25, I had near suicidal level depression, anxiety, insomnia, confidence, body image, and more. Clearly, I never had a proper intuition, even before I developed orthorexia, and with that being the case, I simply don't trust myself to ever have a clear intuition lol. It's better then, to develop what I AM good at- which is data and cold hard facts and tracking, making connections and trends, and so, that's what I plan to do. I'd rather work on my strengths than worry about a weakness I probably can't overcome.

My best health improvements came AFTER I started being strict and counting everything that went into my mouth.

Of course I did make many mistakes along the way, but overall, I alleviated all of my crippling problems. Even now, with all the problems I have, at least I no longer have depression, anxiety, insomnia, confidence problems--not like I used to in my early twenties anyway.
 
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tankasnowgod

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And please show me a complete protein, like whey, or at least a decent protein source that changed Trp/LNAA ratio to the worse with statistical significance in humans.

Funny, anytime someone asks a question like this, I wonder if @haidut has posted that study to the forum already. To quote the late Richard Dawson and Ray Combs, survey says.............

*DING!* Tryptophan (serotonin) Depletion In Brain (and Elsewhere)

From Haidut's post-

"Effect of hydrolysed egg protein on brain tryptophan availability. - PubMed - NCBI
"...All three EPH doses caused significant increases of TRP:LNAA above 40 % at 30, 60 and 90 min after consumption in a dose-dependent manner. Compared with the 4 g EPH, the increase in TRP:LNAA in the 4 g EPH with 2 g MP condition was significantly lower at 60 min (63 v. 44 %, P < 0·001) and did not differ significantly at 90 min (58 v. 53 %, P>0·05). The present study showed that a low dose of 4 g EPH with even the addition of 2 g MP was sufficient to increase the ratio of TRP:LNAA above 40 %. Thus, EPH offers a viable ingredient to increase TRP availability."

Haidut: Egg protein increases tryptophan ratio in plasma so that more tryptophan gets into the brain and converted into serotonin. Mixing egg with milk protein does NOT negate that effect. Eating ONLY milk protein does NOT increase tryptophan availability for crossing BBB and convert into serotonin."

So, as long as you consider egg a complete or decent protein source, there you go. Interestingly, milk protein alone in that study did not increase brain serotonin, but this does not change the fact that milk protein has a higher amount of tryptophan (as a percentage of protein) than any other whole protein source, nor that whey contains a a high percentage of tryptophan as well- Tryptophan - Wikipedia
 

tankasnowgod

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Like I said, without high calorie intake my temps and pulses are s***, especially waking temps and pulses (97's temp, 60, sometimes even high 50 pulse). With high calorie intake I can usually get 98+ waking temp and 70 or even 80+ waking pulses which is pretty much in line with Ray's recommendation for temps and pulses.

Ehhhhh..... not exactly. While temp and pulse is a good metric, Peat has also clearly stated that a high waking temp and pulse can be due to running on stress hormones through the night. To rule out stress, he also recommends taking temp and pulse after breakfast. If running on mostly thyroid during the night, both should go up. If running on stress hormones like adrenaline, both will go down.

The only thing I have found to increase waking temps without running on stress is IBT. Again, this is talked about in the main thread, but Andrew Fletcher discovered that sleeping inclined prevents the 3am drop in temp, which is pretty normal. The times I have measured waking temps, it backs this up.
 

sladerunner69

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What natural hierarchy? Kings below angels and slaves above cattle?

Something like that.

If you look at every species, there is some kind of hierarchical organization. From chimps to bees to lobsters to humans. There is always a natural pecking order.

Of course, that is no random phenomena. In order to preserve structure, to maintain order in a chaotic universe, this is by design. Nature/god developed this as an inherent component of existence.

So while serotonin may be tied into all sorts of diseases, it is a fundamental, inextricable part of life. Many psychologists view it as the happiness hormone based on empirical literature. I think it more accurate described as a dominance hormone. It is released in proportion tot he amount of stress an organism is undergoing. So during combat and famine, it is released in order to cement that natural order, because that is in the organisms best interest at that moment.

It's unfortunate, but a very relaxed, easy going individual with low stress hormones will not be able to survive during times of war and competition for resources. Natural selection has ensured that the most adapted animals had stress-response systems, to release stress hormones in abundance. This is why I believe so many people have problems with stress hormones like estrogen, cortisol, and serotonin. Most people have evolved with these hormones flooding through their systems.
 
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Something like that.

If you look at every species, there is some kind of hierarchical organization. From chimps to bees to lobsters to humans. There is always a natural pecking order.

Of course, that is no random phenomena. In order to preserve structure, to maintain order in a chaotic universe, this is by design. Nature/god developed this as an inherent component of existence.

So while serotonin may be tied into all sorts of diseases, it is a fundamental, inextricable part of life. Many psychologists view it as the happiness hormone based on empirical literature. I think it more accurate described as a dominance hormone. It is released in proportion tot he amount of stress an organism is undergoing. So during combat and famine, it is released in order to cement that natural order, because that is in the organisms best interest at that moment.

It's unfortunate, but a very relaxed, easy going individual with low stress hormones will not be able to survive during times of war and competition for resources. Natural selection has ensured that the most adapted animals had stress-response systems, to release stress hormones in abundance. This is why I believe so many people have problems with stress hormones like estrogen, cortisol, and serotonin. Most people have evolved with these hormones flooding through their systems.
Yeah, for sure altruism won't do you any good if there isn't enough food or water for everyone for example. Nobody wants to be the one without any resources.

But I think adaptations passed from the individuals to their offsping for a long time had much more importance for the formation of the stress hormone system than natural selection. Natural selection tries to explain things by saying that the environment erased the individuals who were not adapted, but that only leaves random genetic mutations as an explanation, which doesn't make any sense. That would mean that a specific mutation happened just in time with a specific group of organisms. And the mutation may even not be passed to their offsping if the sex cells aren't "lucky" enough to contain those mutations. So how in the world could natural selection be the main guide of evolution? That would lead to mass extinction much earlier than it would lead to complex organisms. To me, it seems clear that the adaptations that an organism intelligently makes on its own structure in response to a certain environment not only make the organism more resistant to the hardships of its environment, but also makes their offspring more resistant as well. Natural selection takes away the importance of the individual and only looks at the species. "Genetically weak" individuals must die and those "blessed by evolution" must reproduce to pass those "good genes". No room for improvement through daily choices and circumstances, when clearly things that you do and things that your parentes did on a daily basis will not only affect you but also your offspring. This indeed looks like something out of Nazi arianism and destiny ideology and calvinism, which say God chose some to burn in hell and others to live hapilly in the afterlife( it's the pinnacle of learned helplessness!).
 

Kartoffel

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This is actually how I gained 90 lbs. I stopped caring and tracking and ate how I wanted. So, no. This advice doesn't work for me. Not caring is for simple minded people (And I mean that in the most sincere, non-offensive way possible, truly, I do). Since I am a very intellectual minded person, so it's simply impossible for me to not delve into details - since analyzing data is a passion of mine - and ESPECIALLY when I'm having issues that keeping it simple for, doesn't work. I just put together two weeks of data. I'll need more data to make more conclusions, but for now I can already see some verifications of what I thought. Days I lost weight, consistently were high SFA/PUFA, low PUFA overall, low fernstrom ratio - but NOT necessarily low calorie (Had days I lost on over 4000 calories). This is encouraging. Now I just need more data to really nail down trends. And. Sure enough -- there seems to be no correlation between calcium:phosphorus, or if there is one, its weak -- I'm seeing days with significant weight loss where my calcium:phosphorus ratio was like 0.3.

The reason I have failed up until now is I have not put forth my full attention to detail and data, not that I've put too much. Until you track everything on spreadsheets, you simply can't make correlations and connections and trends.

Oh and just for fun... I'm seeing a day I gained 1 lb on 3500 calories and another I lost 0.6 on 4200. There goes the whole "CICO" theory =)

In my experience the healthiest people I know are the most simple minded people I know (when it comes to nutrition), and I have seen people become sick and irritating once they starting eating "healthy" and counting caories, carbs, etc. Of course it's good to think about what you eat and select a certain variety of foods according to what you know. But if you eat according to a protocol rathern than listen to your hunger, things can only go wrong. I once asked Peat what his ratio of macronutrients is, and he said he never counted them. It doesn't matter how smart you are, or how much you know about nutrition and physiology, you will never be smarter than your body, and so he should make the decision when and how much to eat.
 

Alpha

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Funny, anytime someone asks a question like this, I wonder if @haidut has posted that study to the forum already. To quote the late Richard Dawson and Ray Combs, survey says.............

*DING!* Tryptophan (serotonin) Depletion In Brain (and Elsewhere)

From Haidut's post-

"Effect of hydrolysed egg protein on brain tryptophan availability. - PubMed - NCBI
"...All three EPH doses caused significant increases of TRP:LNAA above 40 % at 30, 60 and 90 min after consumption in a dose-dependent manner. Compared with the 4 g EPH, the increase in TRP:LNAA in the 4 g EPH with 2 g MP condition was significantly lower at 60 min (63 v. 44 %, P < 0·001) and did not differ significantly at 90 min (58 v. 53 %, P>0·05). The present study showed that a low dose of 4 g EPH with even the addition of 2 g MP was sufficient to increase the ratio of TRP:LNAA above 40 %. Thus, EPH offers a viable ingredient to increase TRP availability."

Haidut: Egg protein increases tryptophan ratio in plasma so that more tryptophan gets into the brain and converted into serotonin. Mixing egg with milk protein does NOT negate that effect. Eating ONLY milk protein does NOT increase tryptophan availability for crossing BBB and convert into serotonin."

So, as long as you consider egg a complete or decent protein source, there you go. Interestingly, milk protein alone in that study did not increase brain serotonin, but this does not change the fact that milk protein has a higher amount of tryptophan (as a percentage of protein) than any other whole protein source, nor that whey contains a a high percentage of tryptophan as well- Tryptophan - Wikipedia
Bro, this is hydrolized egg protein, that's the highest TRP content among any commercially available protein, making it worse than taking straight pure tryptophan.
 

tankasnowgod

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Bro, this is hydrolized egg protein, that's the highest TRP content among any commercially available protein, making it worse than taking straight pure tryptophan.

Prove it. What's your source for the amino acid breakdown? I doubt you have anything to back up your second claim.
 

Cirion

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In my experience the healthiest people I know are the most simple minded people I know (when it comes to nutrition), and I have seen people become sick and irritating once they starting eating "healthy" and counting caories, carbs, etc. Of course it's good to think about what you eat and select a certain variety of foods according to what you know. But if you eat according to a protocol rathern than listen to your hunger, things can only go wrong. I once asked Peat what his ratio of macronutrients is, and he said he never counted them. It doesn't matter how smart you are, or how much you know about nutrition and physiology, you will never be smarter than your body, and so he should make the decision when and how much to eat.

Once again tho - I was never healthy in 20 years of eating whatever I wanted and not counting, and its in fact only when I counted that I started making health gains. Intuitive eating sounds great on paper, and maybe it does work for some people, but I think you just can't rely upon it, at least not in a world where most "Food" is processed. Kelj claimed she got well on "junk" foods but she is truly an outlier, that doesn't seem to happen frequently, if ever, on these forums.
 

tankasnowgod

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In my experience the healthiest people I know are the most simple minded people I know (when it comes to nutrition), and I have seen people become sick and irritating once they starting eating "healthy" and counting caories, carbs, etc.

Well, that may be, but there are plenty of people who use that approach who have health problems as well. I gained massive amounts of weight when I was eight years old, and absolutely was not eating according to a protocol or counting calories, or what have you. No doubt those issues (which have followed me my entire life since) have helped to lead me down this path, and be more concerned about what I eat.

This statement is similar to saying "The people with the best looking skin I know have never been the victim of a second or third degree burn." Obviously, that statement is true, but how does that help the burn victim, or his already damaged skin?

I also don't see why it has to be a "Protocol or Hunger" dichotomy. There is no reason you can't track food, calories, carbs, protein, and still be very sensitive to hunger signals. For some, it may even sharpen them.

No doubt that many people get "irritating" on certain diets. Who hasn't been annoyed by Vegas/Low Carbers/Gluten Free/Paleo/Cross Fitters and the like?
 

LUH 3417

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Something like that.

If you look at every species, there is some kind of hierarchical organization. From chimps to bees to lobsters to humans. There is always a natural pecking order.

Of course, that is no random phenomena. In order to preserve structure, to maintain order in a chaotic universe, this is by design. Nature/god developed this as an inherent component of existence.

So while serotonin may be tied into all sorts of diseases, it is a fundamental, inextricable part of life. Many psychologists view it as the happiness hormone based on empirical literature. I think it more accurate described as a dominance hormone. It is released in proportion tot he amount of stress an organism is undergoing. So during combat and famine, it is released in order to cement that natural order, because that is in the organisms best interest at that moment.

It's unfortunate, but a very relaxed, easy going individual with low stress hormones will not be able to survive during times of war and competition for resources. Natural selection has ensured that the most adapted animals had stress-response systems, to release stress hormones in abundance. This is why I believe so many people have problems with stress hormones like estrogen, cortisol, and serotonin. Most people have evolved with these hormones flooding through their systems.
The premise that the world is chaotic is the basis from which every religious or authoritarian discipline springs from.

I once emailed peat about alpha males and he had an interesting reply.

I think it’s a projection of the social darwinist ideology of capitalism. As the religious justification for poverty was fading, middle of the 19th century, the hierarchic world view began seeing itself in animals, and then that became the “scientific basis” for justifying social stratification. The schools have been important for indoctrinating the ideology. The idea of a “pecking order” in chickens was similar to the idea of an alpha male in apes, and—disregarding the actual studies—became “common knowledge” by the middle of the last century. The pecking order develops in domestic chickens only under certain circumstances in flocks of a certain size, and in ape families the dominant male role is much more flexible, subtle, and situational than the genetic determinists have trained people to believe. When I was in the biology department at the U. of Oregon, 1968-72, professors were using Desmond Morris’s book The Naked Apeas a text book—a projection of Tory social ethics/militarism onto archeologic samples, and then an argument from that to “human nature.” It was as if Ayn Rand’s books were being used in sociology and philosophy courses.
 

Cirion

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I also don't see why it has to be a "Protocol or Hunger" dichotomy. There is no reason you can't track food, calories, carbs, protein, and still be very sensitive to hunger signals. For some, it may even sharpen them.

This. Just because I track doesn't mean I don't pay any attention to hunger signals.
 

Alpha

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Prove it. What's your source for the amino acid breakdown? I doubt you have anything to back up your second claim.
Egg whites have one of the top 3 highest Tryptophan amino acids by weight, and the single highest Trp:LNAA ratio at 0.2 in any proteins ever. And that specific study was also hydrolised.

I'm sure you can easily find the nutritional breakdown of foods online.
 

tankasnowgod

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Egg whites have one of the top 3 highest Tryptophan amino acids by weight, and the single highest Trp:LNAA ratio at 0.2 in any proteins ever. And that specific study was also hydrolised.

I'm sure you can easily find the nutritional breakdown of foods online.

I assume by the last comment, you mean that you don't actually have a source yourself.

Yeah, egg whites are fairly high in tryptophan, 280mg per 22.7g of protein- Egg, white, dried Nutrition Facts & Calories

Still no where near milk protein itself, which is almost double that at 529mg for the same amount of protein itself- Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat Nutrition Facts & Calories
 

meatbag

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The premise that the world is chaotic is the basis from which every religious or authoritarian discipline springs from.

I once emailed peat about alpha males and he had an interesting reply.

I think it’s a projection of the social darwinist ideology of capitalism. As the religious justification for poverty was fading, middle of the 19th century, the hierarchic world view began seeing itself in animals, and then that became the “scientific basis” for justifying social stratification. The schools have been important for indoctrinating the ideology. The idea of a “pecking order” in chickens was similar to the idea of an alpha male in apes, and—disregarding the actual studies—became “common knowledge” by the middle of the last century. The pecking order develops in domestic chickens only under certain circumstances in flocks of a certain size, and in ape families the dominant male role is much more flexible, subtle, and situational than the genetic determinists have trained people to believe. When I was in the biology department at the U. of Oregon, 1968-72, professors were using Desmond Morris’s book The Naked Apeas a text book—a projection of Tory social ethics/militarism onto archeologic samples, and then an argument from that to “human nature.” It was as if Ayn Rand’s books were being used in sociology and philosophy courses.

Thanks for posting this :cool:
 

redsun

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I assume by the last comment, you mean that you don't actually have a source yourself.

Yeah, egg whites are fairly high in tryptophan, 280mg per 22.7g of protein- Egg, white, dried Nutrition Facts & Calories

Still no where near milk protein itself, which is almost double that at 529mg for the same amount of protein itself- Milk, whole, 3.25% milkfat Nutrition Facts & Calories

On cronometer milk is listed at .1g tryptophan per cup but on here it is at 183mg, which is basically 200mg rounded up. Since I drink 6 cups of milk on average a day instead of getting 600mg tryptophan from that Im actually getting 1098mg.

I knew cronometer was inaccurate but I'm probably going to tone down the milk in favor of good cheese instead. I used to rely on that website for nutrition data but since using cronometer is so much more convenient I rarely use it except to see total amino acid content including nonessentials.
 

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