Weight Loss: Starch And Trytophan Are What Are Stopping You

[Cirion]

Yeah 4 mcg does absolutely nothing for me. Probably because the body is supposed to make like 100 mcg a day, so 4 mcg is like 4% of normal T3 production. 8 mcg, 16 mcg did nothing either really.

Like I say, too much protein starts to cause problems for me. But, if I really really am religious about cutting out tryptophan, it might work out better for me. I am sick of being sick, so now I'm taking things to the next level. I am starting to track anything and everything I can think of... pulses, temps, calories, carbs, sugars, proteins, calcium:phosphorus, starches, fibers, fats, pufas, tryptophan, fernstrom ratio, weight/weight change in a spreadsheet to REALLY nail things down 100%. For those who aren't sick... Be glad. The things I have to do to get well are insane...

 

[Alpha]

I'd say a 0.5 to 0.6 (1:1 roughly) tryptophan to tyrosine is a very high (bad) ratio.

@LiveWire , whey is totally unnecessary for gaining muscle, as is the ridiculous protein suggestions by "experts". Most people can probably get by on 100-150 grams a day just fine even weightlifters, even heavy weightlifters at that. Carbohydrates are what you need en masse, not protein. You might need 200-300+ gram if you take steroids, because of how fast muscle mass is synthesized, but average joes? Nah. MAYBE someone who is anorexic and never touched a weight in their life and has zero muscles, but the average person who has average muscles... again, nope.

Why are you intaking 180 gram of whey?? Unless you're on the juice, there is literally no reason to be doing that.

1- There really is no such thing as a bad ratio in most protein foods. It's carbs that are the issue.

2- LNAAs are more than just Tyrosine.

 

[Cirion]

1- There really is no such thing as a bad ratio in most protein foods. It's carbs that are the issue.

2- LNAAs are more than just Tyrosine.

1. Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging

Carbs are the issue? Why are you on RP forums if that's what you believe?

2. Tryptophan/( Tyrosine + Phenylalanine + Valine + Isoleucine + Leucine ) = Fernstrom number. Whey is 0.0833. For reference, I'm already at around 0.04-0.05, and consider even that too high.

 

[meatbag]

Yeah 4 mcg does absolutely nothing for me. Probably because the body is supposed to make like 100 mcg a day, so 4 mcg is like 4% of normal T3 production. 8 mcg, 16 mcg did nothing either really.

Like I say, too much protein starts to cause problems for me. But, if I really really am religious about cutting out tryptophan, it might work out better for me. I am sick of being sick, so now I'm taking things to the next level. I am starting to track anything and everything I can think of... pulses, temps, calories, carbs, sugars, proteins, calcium:phosphorus, starches, fibers, fats, pufas, tryptophan, fernstrom ratio, weight/weight change in a spreadsheet to REALLY nail things down 100%. For those who aren't sick... Be glad. The things I have to do to get well are insane...

Yeah I think it's because 100mcg/24hours=4.16mcg/hour. I don't think you're supposed to feel a rush, it should just make you feel relaxed. An energized tissue is a relaxed and responsive tissue.

I think it might be more helpful to make things as simple as possible to pinpoint the issue. Pick foods to provide sufficient Proteins and Carbs: 1g pro/lb bw, at least 2:1 ratio carbohydrate: protein,
try to find foods that fit the category of; "doesn't cause negative effects and provides what's needed"

We already know that milk and fruit juices should be completely digested in the small intestine, if your getting stomach issues from these then there might be a problem in the small intestine.

If you can't go a few hours without eating then you probably need to address liver health

 

[Cirion]

Yeah I think it's because 100mcg/24hours=4.16mcg/hour. I don't think you're supposed to feel a rush, it should just make you feel relaxed. An energized tissue is a relaxed and responsive tissue.

I think it might be more helpful to make things as simple as possible to pinpoint the issue. Pick foods to provide sufficient Proteins and Carbs: 1g pro/lb bw, at least 2:1 ratio carbohydrate: protein,
try to find foods that fit the category of; "doesn't cause negative effects and provides what's needed"

We already know that milk and fruit juices should be completely digested in the small intestine, if your getting stomach issues from these then there might be a problem in the small intestine.

If you can't go a few hours without eating then you probably need to address liver health

Look, I appreciate your attempt to help, I do, but I think you and others don't realize how difficult my situation is. I've been trying all sorts of ridiculous dietary manipulations for the better part of a year. I'm aware of virtually all of the tenants of Ray Peat, and almost every dietary change I can make, most of which I've already tried. Really the only things left to do is really take a microscope to my diet and really do everything 100% flawlessly, and until I have done that, I can't say I'm doing my diet correctly. Unless you've been as sick as me I don't know that you can relate. Simple changes won't fix me at this point.

1g protein per lb bw is way too much and unnecessary. This would put me at almost 300 grams of protein. 2:1 carb/protein is not nearly enough. I'm doing 8:1 lately. 2:1 and I would run out of glucose in an hour. The negative effects are impossible to avoid because even if I eat less and potentially avoid excess intake of certain problematic foods, I now run into the issue that fasting causes - stress response from liberating running off fats and especially PUFA's and depleting glucose. Like I said-I'm currently in a no-win scenario. No matter what I do, can not win. Milk and OJ is a horrible diet that I'll never go back to either.

Until you're in my situation and having tried everything, you won't understand why I have to track things hardcore. This, is in fact, how I'm going to once and for all, determine what's causing me problems.

 

[meatbag]

Look, I appreciate your attempt to help, I do, but I think you and others don't realize how difficult my situation is. I've been trying all sorts of ridiculous dietary manipulations for the better part of a year. I'm aware of virtually all of the tenants of Ray Peat, and almost every dietary change I can make, most of which I've already tried. Really the only things left to do is really take a microscope to my diet and really do everything 100% flawlessly, and until I have done that, I can't say I'm doing my diet correctly. Unless you've been as sick as me I don't know that you can relate. Simple changes won't fix me at this point.

1g protein per lb bw is way too much and unnecessary. This would put me at almost 300 grams of protein. 2:1 carb/protein is not nearly enough. I'm doing 8:1 lately. 2:1 and I would run out of glucose in an hour. The negative effects are impossible to avoid because even if I eat less and potentially avoid excess intake of certain problematic foods, I now run into the issue that fasting causes - stress response from liberating running off fats and especially PUFA's and depleting glucose. Like I said-I'm currently in a no-win scenario. No matter what I do, can not win. Milk and OJ is a horrible diet that I'll never go back to either.

Until you're in my situation and having tried everything, you won't understand why I have to track things hardcore. This, is in fact, how I'm going to once and for all, determine what's causing me problems.

Have you gotten any blood work done or been to doc to test for diabetes?

 

[aquaman]

Why are you intaking 180 gram of whey?? Unless you're on the juice, there is literally no reason to be doing that.

Dude you’re eating 1000 grams of carbs and 10g of fat a day !

 

[Hans]

I can’t say it works for muscle, but then again nothing ever works on me so that’s a whole another story.

Maybe you can make a separate thread on this if you want to discuss it.

 

[Kartoffel]

Look, I appreciate your attempt to help, I do, but I think you and others don't realize how difficult my situation is. I've been trying all sorts of ridiculous dietary manipulations for the better part of a year. I'm aware of virtually all of the tenants of Ray Peat, and almost every dietary change I can make, most of which I've already tried. Really the only things left to do is really take a microscope to my diet and really do everything 100% flawlessly, and until I have done that, I can't say I'm doing my diet correctly. Unless you've been as sick as me I don't know that you can relate. Simple changes won't fix me at this point.

1g protein per lb bw is way too much and unnecessary. This would put me at almost 300 grams of protein. 2:1 carb/protein is not nearly enough. I'm doing 8:1 lately. 2:1 and I would run out of glucose in an hour. The negative effects are impossible to avoid because even if I eat less and potentially avoid excess intake of certain problematic foods, I now run into the issue that fasting causes - stress response from liberating running off fats and especially PUFA's and depleting glucose. Like I said-I'm currently in a no-win scenario. No matter what I do, can not win. Milk and OJ is a horrible diet that I'll never go back to either.

Until you're in my situation and having tried everything, you won't understand why I have to track things hardcore. This, is in fact, how I'm going to once and for all, determine what's causing me problems.

Once you are counting carbs and calories you are in deep trouble. The more you focus on doing things right, the more you will do wrong. Best advice I can give you: Ignore everything you believe to know and just eat what you want when you want it (while considering certain things like PUFA, toxic additivives, irritants, etc.)

 

[Alpha]

1. Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging

Carbs are the issue? Why are you on RP forums if that's what you believe?

2. Tryptophan/( Tyrosine + Phenylalanine + Valine + Isoleucine + Leucine ) = Fernstrom number. Whey is 0.0833. For reference, I'm already at around 0.04-0.05, and consider even that too high.

What? Carbs, especially sugars, taken alone are the single worst thing you can do to raise tryptophan in the brain. What does that have to do with RP?

Again, protein foods don't alter plasma LNAA ratios significantly within the normal range. As long as you're eating any complete protein source, you don't have to worry about any single amino acid getting too high.

Hope that's clear.

 

[Cirion]

Once you are counting carbs and calories you are in deep trouble. The more you focus on doing things right, the more you will do wrong. Best advice I can give you: Ignore everything you believe to know and just eat what you want when you want it (while considering certain things like PUFA, toxic additivives, irritants, etc.)

This is actually how I gained 90 lbs. I stopped caring and tracking and ate how I wanted. So, no. This advice doesn't work for me. Not caring is for simple minded people (And I mean that in the most sincere, non-offensive way possible, truly, I do). Since I am a very intellectual minded person, so it's simply impossible for me to not delve into details - since analyzing data is a passion of mine - and ESPECIALLY when I'm having issues that keeping it simple for, doesn't work. I just put together two weeks of data. I'll need more data to make more conclusions, but for now I can already see some verifications of what I thought. Days I lost weight, consistently were high SFA/PUFA, low PUFA overall, low fernstrom ratio - but NOT necessarily low calorie (Had days I lost on over 4000 calories). This is encouraging. Now I just need more data to really nail down trends. And. Sure enough -- there seems to be no correlation between calcium:phosphorus, or if there is one, its weak -- I'm seeing days with significant weight loss where my calcium:phosphorus ratio was like 0.3.

The reason I have failed up until now is I have not put forth my full attention to detail and data, not that I've put too much. Until you track everything on spreadsheets, you simply can't make correlations and connections and trends.

Oh and just for fun... I'm seeing a day I gained 1 lb on 3500 calories and another I lost 0.6 on 4200. There goes the whole "CICO" theory =)

 

[Alpha]

This is actually how I gained 90 lbs. I stopped caring and tracking and ate how I wanted. So, no. This advice doesn't work for me. Not caring is for simple minded people (And I mean that in the most sincere, non-offensive way possible, truly, I do). Since I am a very intellectual minded person, so it's simply impossible for me to not delve into details - since analyzing data is a passion of mine - and ESPECIALLY when I'm having issues that keeping it simple for, doesn't work. I just put together two weeks of data. I'll need more data to make more conclusions, but for now I can already see some verifications of what I thought. Days I lost weight, consistently were high SFA/PUFA, low PUFA overall, low fernstrom ratio - but NOT necessarily low calorie (Had days I lost on over 4000 calories). This is encouraging. Now I just need more data to really nail down trends. And. Sure enough -- there seems to be no correlation between calcium:phosphorus, or if there is one, its weak -- I'm seeing days with significant weight loss where my calcium:phosphorus ratio was like 0.3.

The reason I have failed up until now is I have not put forth my full attention to detail and data, not that I've put too much. Until you track everything on spreadsheets, you simply can't make correlations and connections and trends.

That's another error you are making.

Weight loss is not measured in days. You need to use averages for weekly periods, and even then it does not eliminate margin of error.

 

[Cirion]

That's another error you are making.

Weight loss is not measured in days. You need to use averages for weekly periods, and even then it does not eliminate margin of error.

False. FAT loss is not measured in days. But weight loss and especially inflammation (Water weight) is.

You absolutely can make trends for INFLAMMATION in the body (and therefore metabolism improvements) on a day by day basis. Gaining 3 lbs overnight means you added stress to your body the other day. It's not 3 lbs of fat, true, but it is an indicator that things are moving in the right direction (Or not).

Also, I'm tracking body temp pulse and many other indicators, weight is not the only marker I'm looking at. When I have more data (months instead of weeks) I plan to plot some trends to really drive home the points. Probably make a separate thread for it for those curious.

I am hoping to uncover some interesting trends with Starch Vs. Sugar as well. I have no preconceived notions of what to expect there, but I am kind of expecting to see that too much starch causes weight gain, which is basically what Ray also says.

 

[Cirion]

What? Carbs, especially sugars, taken alone are the single worst thing you can do to raise tryptophan in the brain. What does that have to do with RP?

Again, protein foods don't alter plasma LNAA ratios significantly within the normal range. As long as you're eating any complete protein source, you don't have to worry about any single amino acid getting too high.

Hope that's clear.

No one eats a pure sugar/carb, zero protein diet, not even vegans, outside of a laboratory, and from what I recall of studies Haidut posted, you need very little (something like 1:8 or even as low as 1:10 protein to carb ratio) to alleviate the serotonin rise from pure carbs. It's possible that fruits may have a ratio too low, but even fruits have SOME protein. Even my crazy experiment with 1000 carbs, I'm still getting at least 100-150 gram of protein so I'm in that 1:8-1:10 safety band. Now, if we want to argue getting all that in the same meal (Because I do sometimes eat carbs mostly alone between protein "meals") that is another thing, but I dunno how big of a deal it is as long as your overall protein that day is sufficient.

Proteins absolutely can cause elevation in serotonin in the brain if tryptophan are high and LNAA's are too low, regardless of carb intake. Ray peat himself, although I disagree with him on milk, admits that many proteins (tryptophan) can be problematic and needs to be balanced appropriately.

Also, there's no such thing as a complete protein source. All foods are complete protein sources (Except gelatin), even fruit or rice. "Complete protein source" is a false term invented by people to discourage people from being vegans or vegetarians.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

As ray talks about these cycles of metabolism are all self-perpetuating.

So your either going North-With Optional hormonal profile/Metabolism

Or your spinning South-Cortisol-Estrogen-Prolactin-Sertonin.

The Calcium and Good Amminos in the sheep/goat/a2 cheeses are finally lowering the prolactin/sertonin and letting the metabolism "Run" without being bogged down with bad amminos/ C/P ratios and FFA Pufa

Avoiding the starches/fiber is lowering cortisol/insulin/sertonin/endotoxin swings which can slow and stop a already damaged metabolism

and the saturated fat/sugar is providing the fuel and keeping FFA(pufa) down
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I can't introduce these foods once the body is back on it's feet.(beef/lamb/potatos.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Breakfast

-Half a cup cottage cheese (home made a2 whole fat)-Takes 10 minutes to make in big batchs
-As much OJ as i "feel like"
-Table spoon of Collagen in 2
-Big cup of cold brew

11am
goat cheese
juice-all to "feel"

4
cheese
juice
coffee

Dinner
cottage cheese
juice

bed
some vanilla ice cream
juice

Metabolism is running like fire

Throw in salt with juice+plenty of refridgerator pickles(whole foods)

 

[Cirion]

As ray talks about these cycles of metabolism are all self-perpetuating.

So your either going North-With Optional hormonal profile/Metabolism

Or your spinning South-Cortisol-Estrogen-Prolactin-Sertonin.

Yes this jives with my experience. Once you're broken it's hard as F*** to get fixed up because your body just generates cortisol,estrogen,prolactin,serotonin like crazy oftentimes for no good reason at all, even in an otherwise stress free life. Conversely when I was healthier, I could get away with more things and not have problems.

The hardest part, then, is making a full 180 degree course correction from "south" to "north" as you put it. TO do a course correction you have to do EVERYTHING perfectly, you can't just make one or two changes.

 

[redsun]

This is actually how I gained 90 lbs. I stopped caring and tracking and ate how I wanted. So, no. This advice doesn't work for me. Not caring is for simple minded people (And I mean that in the most sincere, non-offensive way possible, truly, I do). Since I am a very intellectual minded person, so it's simply impossible for me to not delve into details - since analyzing data is a passion of mine - and ESPECIALLY when I'm having issues that keeping it simple for, doesn't work. I just put together two weeks of data. I'll need more data to make more conclusions, but for now I can already see some verifications of what I thought. Days I lost weight, consistently were high SFA/PUFA, low PUFA overall, low fernstrom ratio - but NOT necessarily low calorie (Had days I lost on over 4000 calories). This is encouraging. Now I just need more data to really nail down trends. And. Sure enough -- there seems to be no correlation between calcium:phosphorus, or if there is one, its weak -- I'm seeing days with significant weight loss where my calcium:phosphorus ratio was like 0.3.

The reason I have failed up until now is I have not put forth my full attention to detail and data, not that I've put too much. Until you track everything on spreadsheets, you simply can't make correlations and connections and trends.

Oh and just for fun... I'm seeing a day I gained 1 lb on 3500 calories and another I lost 0.6 on 4200. There goes the whole "CICO" theory =)

It seems to me Kartoffel is suggesting the intuitive eating method. Indeed it was only a few years I cared to track calories and ironically the severe orthorexia that developed over the next few years seemingly left me in a worse state. I used to quite literally eat 90% intuitively. I ate based on what I craved, I often craved meat and starches, and snacks like cheetos, chips, chocolate and drank soda every meal. I was healthier back then compare to how I am now ironically.

It seems the more I saught to control what I ate and obsessed on what I should and should not eat to be healthy and get as ripped and as much muscle as possible(I was already much more muscular then anyone my age), the worse I ended up. Funny how that works. Oh and plenty of PUFA during this time as well, i wasnt a natural low PUFA eater. There is truth to this intuitive eating thing in my opinion, and likely something I will look into trying one of these days.

 

[Cirion]

It seems to me Kartoffel is suggesting the intuitive eating method. Indeed it was only a few years I cared to track calories and ironically the severe orthorexia that developed over the next few years seemingly left me in a worse state. I used to quite literally eat 90% intuitively. I ate based on what I craved, I often craved meat and starches, and snacks like cheetos, chips, chocolate and drank soda every meal. I was healthier back then compare to how I am now ironically.

It seems the more I saught to control what I ate and obsessed on what I should and should not eat to be healthy and get as ripped and as much muscle as possible(I was already much more muscular then anyone my age), the worse I ended up. Funny how that works. Oh and plenty of PUFA during this time as well, i wasnt a natural low PUFA eater. There is truth to this intuitive eating thing in my opinion, and likely something I will look into trying one of these days.

I can't deny it may have worked for you and some others on these forums, it just never worked for me. I should note that the only two times in my life I was healthy, I was in fact orthorexic (Strict keto, Strict very high carb very low fat, were the two). Not once have I been healthy while NOT tracking (not even as a teenager), so, at least for me, maybe my intuition is broken (Quite possible), but that method never works/worked for me. Also part of what broke my health last go around before arriving on these forums was in fact "not caring about tracking" anymore and eating whatever I cared to.

 

[Alpha]

No one eats a pure sugar/carb, zero protein diet, not even vegans, outside of a laboratory, and from what I recall of studies Haidut posted, you need very little (something like 1:8 or even as low as 1:10 protein to carb ratio) to alleviate the serotonin rise from pure carbs. It's possible that fruits may have a ratio too low, but even fruits have SOME protein. Even my crazy experiment with 1000 carbs, I'm still getting at least 100-150 gram of protein so I'm in that 1:8-1:10 safety band. Now, if we want to argue getting all that in the same meal (Because I do sometimes eat carbs mostly alone between protein "meals") that is another thing, but I dunno how big of a deal it is as long as your overall protein that day is sufficient.

Proteins absolutely can cause elevation in serotonin in the brain if tryptophan are high and LNAA's are too low, regardless of carb intake. Ray peat himself, although I disagree with him on milk, admits that many proteins (tryptophan) can be problematic and needs to be balanced appropriately.

Also, there's no such thing as a complete protein source. All foods are complete protein sources (Except gelatin), even fruit or rice. "Complete protein source" is a false term invented by people to discourage people from being vegans or vegetarians.

A complete protein is a food source of protein that contains an adequate proportion of each of the nine essential amino acids necessary in the human diet.

No one eats a pure sugar/carb, zero protein diet, not even vegans, outside of a laboratory, and from what I recall of studies Haidut posted, you need very little (something like 1:8 or even as low as 1:10 protein to carb ratio) to alleviate the serotonin rise from pure carbs. It's possible that fruits may have a ratio too low, but even fruits have SOME protein. Even my crazy experiment with 1000 carbs, I'm still getting at least 100-150 gram of protein so I'm in that 1:8-1:10 safety band. Now, if we want to argue getting all that in the same meal (Because I do sometimes eat carbs mostly alone between protein "meals") that is another thing, but I dunno how big of a deal it is as long as your overall protein that day is sufficient.

Proteins absolutely can cause elevation in serotonin in the brain if tryptophan are high and LNAA's are too low, regardless of carb intake. Ray peat himself, although I disagree with him on milk, admits that many proteins (tryptophan) can be problematic and needs to be balanced appropriately.

Also, there's no such thing as a complete protein source. All foods are complete protein sources (Except gelatin), even fruit or rice. "Complete protein source" is a false term invented by people to discourage people from being vegans or vegetarians.

A complete protein or whole protein is a food source of protein that contains an adequate proportion of each of the nine essential amino acids necessary in the human diet.

And please show me a complete protein, like whey, or at least a decent protein source that changed Trp/LNAA ratio to the worse with statistical significance in humans.