Weight Gain On Low, Low Pufa

[LiveWire]

@Liubo

Could you please link the fructose info from Jon?

 

[Cirion]

Not liubo, but I found out myself recently that excess sugar (fructose) is indeed problematic. Fructose is absolutely helpful in moderate quantities, and I still eat fruit, but I no longer use it as my primary carbohydrate source. I use starch (glucose) as my primary carbohydrate source now.

I am no scientist but I am guessing sugar probably depletes B vitamins in particular based upon what little I know, so eating too much can really deplete your stores.

 

[Luann]

@LiveWire

Thanks! Just glad my experience was validating for some :)

Yeah the whole sudden loss of energy thing SUCKS. Niacinamide seems to be promising for the rehab process though, it was the probably the most influential on temps and pulse as 1g split into 500mg doses over 8hrs kept my temperature 1.8f higher than normal and kept my pulse 75bpm which is 25pbm higher than average...though heart rate for me is probably not an accurate guage of metabolism because of athletics. Niacinamide definitely made me feel RELAXED, it was odd, oven though I heated up, pulse was higher, I just felt like I could melt into the couch lol. Only prob was the weight gain lol.

Hmmm anemic? Like actually low iron? Or just feeling emaciated? I'm curious because my fiancé is also very fit, has experimented with diet BUT has a perfect metabolism in every sense and when she messes with fat anything under 50g a day it royally jacked her up! She's 5'7" 108lbs @ 9% bf and is very dead on regular with female monthlies lol and a low fat diet distorted everything. I have a hypothesis that because women in general run on more fat burning hormones in a healthy state, it seems that they need more fat in theiir diet in general, even during a phase of less than ideal metabolism. I wonder if your fat intake is adequate? It seemed to be the single most important macronutrient for my fiancé, who regularly eats 80-100g of fat a day. Also I know fruit is integral in peat and I don't deny it's abundance of nutrients BUT I seem to do better (as well as my fiancé) on a 60:40 ratio of complex starch to simple/fruit sugars. Mind you the only starch we really eat is white potatoes, white basmati rice, and the occasional home made yeast risen bread from organic non-gmo non enriched white flour from Italy lol.

The literature that suggests glucose as a primary calorie source along with the study that showed fructose is used more efficiently with a certain ratio of glucose to fructose and can be malabsorbed without that glucose

Consuming fructose-sweetened, not glucose-sweetened, beverages increases visceral adiposity and lipids and decreases insulin sensitivity in overweight/obese humans

Normal Roles for Dietary Fructose in Carbohydrate Metabolism

Fructose Malabsorption and Intolerance: Effects of Fructose with and without Simultaneous Glucose Ingestion

The Ability of the Normal Human Small Intestine to Absorb Fructose: Evaluation by Breath Testing

seems to support my experiences as eating mainly potatoes as my carb source along with 2-3 cups of fruit, a glass of orange juice, some milk, and some cane sugar a day brought my blood pressure WAY DOWN 130/90 to 110/60 in 5 months (stress, got slightly fat, and very poor food choices at the time) also potatoes fixed my digestion. I've had terrible digestion my whole life with a list of about 40 different things that were seemingly indigestible to me but after the inclusion of potatoes that all disappeared. When I have more fructose than I can absorb in a day (this is tmi) my stool has a sweet fruit smell, but when intake is tapered down to amounts the studies above suggest in relation to my starch intake I don't have that happen.Women faired even worse in relation to fructose in those studies which is another reason I watch my intake as even though I'm a man, I'm most likely dealing with some estrogen dominance so I'm sure I have a fructose intolerance to some degree. My unprofessional opinion! Take with a grain of salt lol but maybe those are things to consider with how you're feeling?

This is from the end of pg 4 on this thread

 

[tankasnowgod]

So I guess I should update this thread.....

I lost the six or seven pounds I wanted to, & I'm actually looking to gain weight again.
The grass is always greener on the other side.
Anyway what probably helped me lose weight was switching from dry milk as a calorie source to liquid milk and consuming less of it altogether. I eat less gelatin now as well. The milk powder and gelatin were causing me serious headaches and I believe that was an endotoxin issue. Now, I have less headaches (still working on identifying other sources though) and lost the water weight that was probably making me weigh more.

Also I've kept peating since this thread and probably have less body PUFA. For sure my metabolism is higher, because A. now I can't seem to gain weight and B. I suffer much more now if i under-eat.

Also I wanna thank @Jon - certainly not the only one who helped me in this thread - but he informed me about complications with fructose and the importance of eating ENOUGH CALORIES.

TLDR less milk and less endotoxin helped me shed a few. thanks all

Interesting. How were you eating the gelatin? I also wonder if the absorbent nature of gelatin has any effect, direct or indirect. If it's not digested well, it could cause issues with water at various parts of the GI tract. Maybe causing too little water to be present in the colon and creating constipation? Or possibly some other effect?

 

[Ron J]

Not liubo, but I found out myself recently that excess sugar (fructose) is indeed problematic. Fructose is absolutely helpful in moderate quantities, and I still eat fruit, but I no longer use it as my primary carbohydrate source. I use starch (glucose) as my primary carbohydrate source now.

I am no scientist but I am guessing sugar probably depletes B vitamins in particular based upon what little I know, so eating too much can really deplete your stores.

I'm afraid to switch to starch(at least the table sugar portion of my diet), because of all the insulin/fat gain claims here. I've asked before(I don't think it was answered) if protein is more insulinogenic than carbs(both sugar and starch), I don't get why the insulin release from starch is so alarming. As long as some fructose is consumed with it and potassium, I'd assume that it would be similar to sugar.
Also, if a man requires 4,000 calories a day, assuming 200g of protein(high for many), 60g of fat, that leaves 2,660 cals of carbs; if half of that is fructose, that means 332.5g of fructose a day(divided by the meals per day). If you only eat three times a day, that's 110.8g of fructose per meal.

 

[Cirion]

Don't fear the starch man. There is indeed a lot of starch fear mongering on these forums. However even RP himself has said that starch is not necessarily incompatible with health, though it is clear he generally prefers sugar.

What I will say, though is do NOT mix starch with a lot of fat. That does seem very problematic in my experience. However, starch alone with little to no fat seems OK for me generally. I once mixed a bunch of butter with a large serving of rice and had a HORRIBLE endotoxic response. Don't do that lol.

A guy who once coached me said consistently eating glucose is actually the best way to restore insulin sensitivity, probably because glucose reliably causes the insulin to rise more than fructose. With the caveat that you also eat little to no dietary fat because that interferes with glucose (randle cycle).

 

[milkboi]

I use starch (glucose) as my primary carbohydrate source now.

I am no scientist but I am guessing sugar probably depletes B vitamins in particular based upon what little I know, so eating too much can really deplete your stores.

Why would sugar deplete B-Vitamins more than starch?

 

[Ron J]

Don't fear the starch man. There is indeed a lot of starch fear mongering on these forums. However even RP himself has said that starch is not necessarily incompatible with health, though it is clear he generally prefers sugar.

What I will say, though is do NOT mix starch with a lot of fat. That does seem very problematic in my experience. However, starch alone with little to no fat seems OK for me generally. I once mixed a bunch of butter with a large serving of rice and had a HORRIBLE endotoxic response. Don't do that lol.

A guy who once coached me said consistently eating glucose is actually the best way to restore insulin sensitivity, probably because glucose reliably causes the insulin to rise more than fructose. With the caveat that you also eat little to no dietary fat because that interferes with glucose (randle cycle).

I will after this summer. I just can't risk weight gain given my puffy nipples/gyno. If it wasn't for that I would start right away.

 

[Cirion]

I will after this summer. I just can't risk weight gain given my puffy nipples/gyno. If it wasn't for that I would start right away.

I'm actually doing this BECAUSE of my previous weight gain. Starch doesn't cause weight gain, dietary fat does, especially in the context of high carb/starch intake. Starch gets often blamed for body fat gain because the average joe does not eat starch alone - they eat it with lots of butter, cream, oils, cheese... People rarely eat pasta without some cheese, potatoes or toast without butter, bagels without cream, etc... Yes all that will cause weight gain. Take out the fat though, and the opposite is much more likely to occur.

Starch is the only way for me to eat low fat and not feel hungry all the time. Sugar doesn't satisfy my hunger. I haven't yet lost my weight but I have stabilized it to where it's not increasing anymore. It was going up endlessly while I still ate dietary fat.

 

[Cirion]

Why would sugar deplete B-Vitamins more than starch?

A good question that off the top of my head, I can't honestly answer fully without looking up a couple things, but don't many starches contain B-vitamins whereas many sugars do not?

 

[redsun]

I'm actually doing this BECAUSE of my previous weight gain. Starch doesn't cause weight gain, dietary fat does, especially in the context of high carb/starch intake. Starch gets often blamed for body fat gain because the average joe does not eat starch alone - they eat it with lots of butter, cream, oils, cheese... People rarely eat pasta without some cheese, potatoes or toast without butter, bagels without cream, etc... Yes all that will cause weight gain. Take out the fat though, and the opposite is much more likely to occur.

Starch is the only way for me to eat low fat and not feel hungry all the time. Sugar doesn't satisfy my hunger. I haven't yet lost my weight but I have stabilized it to where it's not increasing anymore. It was going up endlessly while I still ate dietary fat.

Here's a novel thought, the supposed dangerous "insulin spike" caused by a high starch meal(which would contain only glucose) allows all the nutrients youve eaten(carbs, protein, micronutrients) to get shoved into cells at a much higher rate. The lower insulin response caused by having carbs from fruit and other fructose containing foods(aka sugar) doesnt allow your cells to be fed properly, leaving you unsatisfied because your cells arent getting enough nutrients.

I think Im not the only one that thinks that the human body is supposed to be able to self-regulate its calorie and nutrient intake. After all, it was only 2-3 years ago when I decided to start counting calories, yet I ended up at a worse state of health and heavier over time as I changed my previous diet patterns. I did have sugars before then but nowhere near as much. Starch was primary in the form of pasta, potatoes, chips, etc plenty of pufa. never ate fruit only sugar was occasional sugary treat like chocolate and 2-3 soda cans. Definitely not fat focused but had a good amount and yet I was healthier in this pufa laden, starchy peat nightmare then I ever was following peat principles.

A good question that off the top of my head, I can't honestly answer fully without looking up a couple things, but don't many starches contain B-vitamins whereas many sugars do not?

Its not necessarily that sugar directly depletes vitamins and minerals more than starches, its that starches(at least in healthy whole food ones like potatoes) have higher b vitamin and mineral content then most fruits. Also loading up on fruit will waterlog most people from the increased water content and decreased salt(while starch can be salted liberally), which is bad for metabolism as a whole.

 

[Cirion]

Its not necessarily that sugar directly depletes vitamins and minerals more than starches, its that starches(at least in healthy whole food ones like potatoes) have higher b vitamin and mineral content then most fruits. Also loading up on fruit will waterlog most people from the increased water content and decreased salt(while starch can be salted liberally), which is bad for metabolism as a whole.

Yeah that's what I was trying to hint at via saying starches may have more B vitamins than most sugar sources.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Here's a novel thought, the supposed dangerous "insulin spike" caused by a high starch meal(which would contain only glucose) allows all the nutrients youve eaten(carbs, protein, micronutrients) to get shoved into cells at a much higher rate. The lower insulin response caused by having carbs from fruit and other fructose containing foods(aka sugar) doesnt allow your cells to be fed properly, leaving you unsatisfied because your cells arent getting enough nutrients.

One of the primary functions of insulin is to turn off gluconeogenesis in the liver. While it also allows glucose to enter cells at a higher rate, it's not strictly necessary, as sugar can enter cells even if there is no insulin present. Why do you think that insulin allows micronutrients into cells in the same way?

 

[Luann]

And i think most fruit actually has starch? Which technically is raw starch. From Peat's view, that's the bad stuff... I try to get a mix of fruit juice and starches but I dont really like a lot of fruit! The thing about starch is to watch the pufa's in things like corn and wheat.


@tankasnowgod that's a really interesting theory on gelatin!! I have NO idea how the gelatin was prepared because I was eating it in the form of gummy candy, not homemade.

 

[LiveWire]

@Liubo @Cirion

Thanks both.

I was currious about fructose since raw cane sugar and honey have been my main carb sources especially on workout days when I go with double the sugar/honey for every gram of whey protein I have. And that was a lot of fructose.

So I’m experimenting with just glucose (dextrose) for that very purpose.

 

[Luann]

you're welcome and I've learned a lot on this topic today. I'm realizing that whatever other symptoms may be caused by fructose the very least is that some is wasted by the body, not so good!! I want to feed my cells :/ Again, even high sources like HFCS is about half & half fructose and glucose so it is better absorbed than pure fructose. But.....I will be looking for real sugar sodas from now on. Something cool to treat myself with at the gas stations :)

 

[Jon]

@Liubo glad you’re doing well :)

 

[CLASH]

Wether or not starch will cause weight gain is dependent upon digestion/ bacteria present in the intestine. Grains will reliably cause weight gain, the effect is not dependent on starch so much as it is on the inflammation induced by them. The only common safe starches are yams, white potatoes, white rice and plantains. White rice is a piss poor food nutritionally. Cassva is potentionally goitrogenic and I’m not familiar with taro. Another aspect to take into consideration is amylose vs amylopectin and the fodmaps associated with the starhes such as the ones present in yams/ sweet potatoes making them less digestible depending on your colonic flora. This leaves mainly yams, white potatoes and plantains.

Issues with fruit tend to be related to bacterial issues in the intestine as well. They are also dependent on glucose to fructose ratio and fodmaps in the fruit. Fruits are some of the most nutritionally dense foods there are. They contain many plant compounds that inhibit bacterial, fungal and parasitic utilization of the nutrients and sugars in the fruit. Sugars have unique metabolic benefits over starch and are much more easily digested, especially sucrose and pure glucose. Our evolutionary background is one of ripe fruit eating. Pure fructose is only easily digested if it is 1:1 with glucose or there is a higher ratio of glucose. So again if your having issues with fruit, you may have a bacterial issues going on the intestine or you could be sensitive to that specific fruit as many fruits have fodmaps, altered fructose:glucose ratios and/or pharmaceutical like effects (reaction to these effects seems largely dependent on the intestinal bacteria tho).

The idea that safa/ mufa makes you fat is false in a reasonable context. The safest macro as far as digestion goes is safa/ mufa fat. Its protective of the liver and the intestine epithelial integrity and helps to protect against bacterial issues in the intestine which is exactly why Dr. Peat specifically recommends to eat a fat with a starch. Chain length of fats have different effects where medium chain and short chain fats have significantly different effects than long chain fats. This is the reason some people develop issues when ingesting massive amounts of coconut oil, the medium chain triglycerides past a certain amount can have an irritating effect on the intestine or could be fungicidal/ bactericidal leading to die off symptoms.

Animal proteins wont make you fat (dairy is an exception).

Dairy can make you fat due to the opiate effect, the hormonal content, the issues with lactose intolerance and subsequent bacterial fermentation, and/or an allergy to the dairy. If you are gaining weight I would seriously consider taking out dairy.


*The safest human foods by far are fruits, roots, yams, potatoes, plantains, mufa/safa sources, and animal proteins. The ratios to which these are consumed seem to have some variability but as far as I can see all large mammals seem to follow diets with fat intakes around 40-50% calories. Considering human brain size I’d say that optimal macro ratios would be either 40/40/20 or 50/30/20 of f/c/p. For humans carbs seem to be more variable by activity, while fat and protein seem to have thresholds. If you are having issues with these foods you most likely have an issue with bacteria in the intestine, you are sensitive to that specific food (seems to be dependent mainly on bacteria in the intestine), or your ratios are off.

All other foods range from potentially to extremely problematic and are dependent on indiviual tolerance.

I see alot of people claiming that sugar, starch or fat are what makes people overwheight. I think this is too simplified and patently false. Fat from mufa/ safa sources wont make you fat, starch from yams and potatoes wont make you fat and sugars from fruits and juices wont make you fat. I also dont think that the combination of safa/ mufa sources with sugars from fruit/ juices and/or starches from yams/ potatoes will make you fat. Sh*t I dont even think excess calories will really make you excessively fat. What I do think makes people fat is inflammation driven by granulated sugar, dairy (the purpose of dairy is to make you fat...), refined starches, grains, vegetable oils, alcohol, intestinal dysbiosis etc.

I would love to see a person without an intestinal dysbiosis become empirically fat eating animal proteins, mufa/safa sources, fruit, yams and potatoes.

 

[Peatful]

Wether or not starch will cause weight gain is dependent upon digestion/ bacteria present in the intestine. Grains will reliably cause weight gain, the effect is not dependent on starch so much as it is on the inflammation induced by them. The only common safe starches are yams, white potatoes, white rice and plantains. White rice is a piss poor food nutritionally. Cassva is potentionally goitrogenic and I’m not familiar with taro. Another aspect to take into consideration is amylose vs amylopectin and the fodmaps associated with the starhes such as the ones present in yams/ sweet potatoes making them less digestible depending on your colonic flora. This leaves mainly yams, white potatoes and plantains.

Issues with fruit tend to be related to bacterial issues in the intestine as well. They are also dependent on glucose to fructose ratio and fodmaps in the fruit. Fruits are some of the most nutritionally dense foods there are. They contain many plant compounds that inhibit bacterial, fungal and parasitic utilization of the nutrients and sugars in the fruit. Sugars have unique metabolic benefits over starch and are much more easily digested, especially sucrose and pure glucose. Our evolutionary background is one of ripe fruit eating. Pure fructose is only easily digested if it is 1:1 with glucose or there is a higher ratio of glucose. So again if your having issues with fruit, you may have a bacterial issues going on the intestine or you could be sensitive to that specific fruit as many fruits have fodmaps, altered fructose:glucose ratios and/or pharmaceutical like effects (reaction to these effects seems largely dependent on the intestinal bacteria tho).

The idea that safa/ mufa makes you fat is false in a reasonable context. The safest macro as far as digestion goes is safa/ mufa fat. Its protective of the liver and the intestine epithelial integrity and helps to protect against bacterial issues in the intestine which is exactly why Dr. Peat specifically recommends to eat a fat with a starch. Chain length of fats have different effects where medium chain and short chain fats have significantly different effects than long chain fats. This is the reason some people develop issues when ingesting massive amounts of coconut oil, the medium chain triglycerides past a certain amount can have an irritating effect on the intestine or could be fungicidal/ bactericidal leading to die off symptoms.

Animal proteins wont make you fat (dairy is an exception).

Dairy can make you fat due to the opiate effect, the hormonal content, the issues with lactose intolerance and subsequent bacterial fermentation, and/or an allergy to the dairy. If you are gaining weight I would seriously consider taking out dairy.


*The safest human foods by far are fruits, roots, yams, potatoes, plantains, mufa/safa sources, and animal proteins. The ratios to which these are consumed seem to have some variability but as far as I can see all large mammals seem to follow diets with fat intakes around 40-50% calories. Considering human brain size I’d say that optimal macro ratios would be either 40/40/20 or 50/30/20 of f/c/p. For humans carbs seem to be more variable by activity, while fat and protein seem to have thresholds. If you are having issues with these foods you most likely have an issue with bacteria in the intestine, you are sensitive to that specific food (seems to be dependent mainly on bacteria in the intestine), or your ratios are off.

All other foods range from potentially to extremely problematic and are dependent on indiviual tolerance.

I see alot of people claiming that sugar, starch or fat are what makes people overwheight. I think this is too simplified and patently false. Fat from mufa/ safa sources wont make you fat, starch from yams and potatoes wont make you fat and sugars from fruits and juices wont make you fat. I also dont think that the combination of safa/ mufa sources with sugars from fruit/ juices and/or starches from yams/ potatoes will make you fat. Sh*t I dont even think excess calories will really make you excessively fat. What I do think makes people fat is inflammation driven by granulated sugar, dairy (the purpose of dairy is to make you fat...), refined starches, grains, vegetable oils, alcohol, intestinal dysbiosis etc.

I would love to see a person without an intestinal dysbiosis become empirically fat eating animal proteins, mufa/safa sources, fruit, yams and potatoes.

This is a good post.

 

[Jon]

Wether or not starch will cause weight gain is dependent upon digestion/ bacteria present in the intestine. Grains will reliably cause weight gain, the effect is not dependent on starch so much as it is on the inflammation induced by them. The only common safe starches are yams, white potatoes, white rice and plantains. White rice is a piss poor food nutritionally. Cassva is potentionally goitrogenic and I’m not familiar with taro. Another aspect to take into consideration is amylose vs amylopectin and the fodmaps associated with the starhes such as the ones present in yams/ sweet potatoes making them less digestible depending on your colonic flora. This leaves mainly yams, white potatoes and plantains.

Issues with fruit tend to be related to bacterial issues in the intestine as well. They are also dependent on glucose to fructose ratio and fodmaps in the fruit. Fruits are some of the most nutritionally dense foods there are. They contain many plant compounds that inhibit bacterial, fungal and parasitic utilization of the nutrients and sugars in the fruit. Sugars have unique metabolic benefits over starch and are much more easily digested, especially sucrose and pure glucose. Our evolutionary background is one of ripe fruit eating. Pure fructose is only easily digested if it is 1:1 with glucose or there is a higher ratio of glucose. So again if your having issues with fruit, you may have a bacterial issues going on the intestine or you could be sensitive to that specific fruit as many fruits have fodmaps, altered fructose:glucose ratios and/or pharmaceutical like effects (reaction to these effects seems largely dependent on the intestinal bacteria tho).

The idea that safa/ mufa makes you fat is false in a reasonable context. The safest macro as far as digestion goes is safa/ mufa fat. Its protective of the liver and the intestine epithelial integrity and helps to protect against bacterial issues in the intestine which is exactly why Dr. Peat specifically recommends to eat a fat with a starch. Chain length of fats have different effects where medium chain and short chain fats have significantly different effects than long chain fats. This is the reason some people develop issues when ingesting massive amounts of coconut oil, the medium chain triglycerides past a certain amount can have an irritating effect on the intestine or could be fungicidal/ bactericidal leading to die off symptoms.

Animal proteins wont make you fat (dairy is an exception).

Dairy can make you fat due to the opiate effect, the hormonal content, the issues with lactose intolerance and subsequent bacterial fermentation, and/or an allergy to the dairy. If you are gaining weight I would seriously consider taking out dairy.


*The safest human foods by far are fruits, roots, yams, potatoes, plantains, mufa/safa sources, and animal proteins. The ratios to which these are consumed seem to have some variability but as far as I can see all large mammals seem to follow diets with fat intakes around 40-50% calories. Considering human brain size I’d say that optimal macro ratios would be either 40/40/20 or 50/30/20 of f/c/p. For humans carbs seem to be more variable by activity, while fat and protein seem to have thresholds. If you are having issues with these foods you most likely have an issue with bacteria in the intestine, you are sensitive to that specific food (seems to be dependent mainly on bacteria in the intestine), or your ratios are off.

All other foods range from potentially to extremely problematic and are dependent on indiviual tolerance.

I see alot of people claiming that sugar, starch or fat are what makes people overwheight. I think this is too simplified and patently false. Fat from mufa/ safa sources wont make you fat, starch from yams and potatoes wont make you fat and sugars from fruits and juices wont make you fat. I also dont think that the combination of safa/ mufa sources with sugars from fruit/ juices and/or starches from yams/ potatoes will make you fat. Sh*t I dont even think excess calories will really make you excessively fat. What I do think makes people fat is inflammation driven by granulated sugar, dairy (the purpose of dairy is to make you fat...), refined starches, grains, vegetable oils, alcohol, intestinal dysbiosis etc.

I would love to see a person without an intestinal dysbiosis become empirically fat eating animal proteins, mufa/safa sources, fruit, yams and potatoes.

I like your post, but I do believe we need starch for reasons beyond just balancing the glucose:fructose ratio. Without starch (especially RS2) we would not make butyric acid (among other short chain fatty acids which are of benefit to us) Butyric acid being a compound that can actually lower triglycerides and increase insulin sensitivity by shunting fat into muscle cells and clearing the blood so that glucose may again be utilized (a process proven by muscle biopsies post butyrate supplementation). Our beneficial flora (mostly the bifido strains) are the main producers of scfa from starch. The other thing is that starch is basically pure muscle fuel (assuming that it’s relatively 99% converted to glucose) and it seems quite difficult to accumulate visceral fat on high amounts of starch as long as micronutrients are also present as well as a lower/moderate fat diet. It also seems that (at least in men) a higher glucose diet can actually improve insulin sensitivity.

In my case at least (lifelong ibs) starch from white potatoes was the main thing to fix my digestion.

**also forgot to mention that RS2, though it can cause symptoms of SIBO taken in large doses, has been shown in study to improve the PH of the stool and colon in human subjects**