Weight Gain On Low, Low Pufa

[Travis]

My diet right now.
Around 1600 calories, 74% carbs/sugar, 25% protein (around 90-100 g), 1% fat.
OJ with collagen (2 cups)
Skim milk ( 1/2 quart /day)
0% fat strained yogurt with apple sauce (1:2 ratio of protein to sugar)
30 g protein from collagen powder
Egg whites for breakfast (3 egg whites)
coffee + honey (2 -3 times /day)

That's quite the high tryptophan ratio. Just keep in mind that this would be expected to increase serotonin. It might be a good idea to eat the collagen/gelatin next to the egg whites.

From the experiments I read, high tryptophan ratios in the blood can increase serotonin synthesis in real time. It's the ratio that counts and not the absolute level. Eating it with gelatin would lower the ratio. Ray Peat recommends doings such things sometimes.

If a half-pound of steak is eaten, it would probably be reasonable to have about 20 grams of gelatin at approximately the same time. Even a higher ratio of gelatin to muscle meat might be preferable.

Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging

Egg white has a higher tryptophan ratio than steak.

 

[Luann]

Hey @tca300. How do you get vitamin B6? Supplement? You don't seem to eat a lot of foods with it. But your diet is so nice and low in fats.

 

[theLaw]

I said what I said based on personal experience. 650mg of aspirin and about 200-300mg of niacinamide per day, I lose about 1 lb or less on my diet at 2500kcals. When I discontinue them I lose at least 1.5lbs per week, but typically 2-3lbs. Not trying to argue, just my personal experience. Im very very strict, and calculated with my food, supplements, and lifestyle. Those were the only changing variables. I use both substances regularly, except when Im cutting.

Aspirin and caffeine are additive in their effect on mitochondrial uncoupling. Hence the reason the (in)famous stack ECA had ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin in it. If you can handle the high dosages of caffeine combined with aspirin then by all means go for it. I think the effects of aspirin would depend on the dose. In smaller doses it likely blocks lipolysis and in higher doses it increases fat oxidation. All I know is that when I was taking 500mg a day and 500mg-1,000mg niacinamide a day (without caffeine) I was not losing weight but felt like gaining instead. But this could be due to me being hypothyroid at the time.
For people trying to lose weight, I'd still focus on caffeine and K2 until their liver function normalizes (as measured by both enzymes and tolerance to caffeine).
If I had to reproduce my experiment, I'd still go the caffeine route and add niacinamide only after losing excess fat.

Both of these experiences are in line with Ray Peat's suggestions for those with liver issues.

 

[tca300]

Hey @tca300. How do you get vitamin B6? Supplement? You don't seem to eat a lot of foods with it. But your diet is so nice and low in fats.

Oranges, milk and liver have enough. I take ~10mg every now and then.

 

[Luann]

Oranges, milk and liver have enough. I take ~10mg every now and then.

Cool. Will keep in mind!

 

[Luann]

@milk my skin is continuing to look better and tighter. Eating more added salt helps and probably this manganese pill (10 mg).

 

[milk]

@milk my skin is continuing to look better and tighter. Eating more added salt helps and probably this manganese pill (10 mg).

Good for you. My skin's looking better too. I think it was just the brand of pregnenolone I was using.

 

[Orion]

@milk my skin is continuing to look better and tighter. Eating more added salt helps and probably this manganese pill (10 mg).

Hey @Liubo, this seems to be inline with some theories that @gbolduev presented in a PFS thread.

From what he presented; Zn and Manganese seem to be the key to good skin as they affect 3bHSD which is needed for progesterone production. Zn puts potassium in the cell and Manganese takes it out, proper potassium levels in the cell are required for thyroid to work properly. Zn is also vital in the pathway for retinoic acid, again needed to produce progesterone.

RP mentioned the vitamin A(retinoic acid), thyroid(potassium) and cholesterol make pregnenolone, next to get progesterone means proper K levels with either Zn or Manganese for proper 3bHSD levels.

This could mean that you had slight progesterone dominance that taking Manganese is helping to balance out by lowering its production via lowering potassium levels.

You might need to lower Mang intake eventually or use Zn to rebound the other way if necessary.

This solved my lifetime skin issues in the last 3 weeks

 

[Luann]

@milk that's awesome.

@Orion wow thanks for the background information. I am planning to take the Mn to 5 mg a day after today. That's great that your skin issues responded to similar treatment! Always thought I was estrogen dominant and didn't know that progesterone dominance exists?

 

[Orion]

@Orion wow thanks for the background information. I am planning to take the Mn to 5 mg a day after today. That's great that your skin issues responded to similar treatment! Always thought I was estrogen dominant and didn't know that progesterone dominance exists?

Wanted to add that I needed to do the exact opposite as you, I did a 3 day water fast to deplete K, then on fourth day I started 25mg Zn. If I take Manganese is makes my acne worse. I think these are the 2 vectors to solving acne issues. I also took 200mg of Progesterone each day on the 3 day fast to further down-regulate Prog receptors. My hair mineral tests showed I had high cellular K, which I needed to deplete. 3bHSD won't kickstart in K saturated cells.

I'm not really sure if its prog dominance, or that Mang downregulates 3bHSD(major steroidal pathway), but you would be lowering Prog levels.

Explains why lots of females have success using spironolactone for acne, since its similar to Zn, in sparing K; "Spironolactone is a potassium-sparing diuretic (water pill) that prevents your body from absorbing too much sodium and keeps your potassium levels from getting too low."

 

[Orion]

Oh lastly, B vitamins and Molybdenum are important in the retinoic acid pathway. Getting adequate B1/2/3/6 is very helpful, using the active forms can help in the short term too

Adequate Magnesium intake should be part of the diet too.

 

[EIRE24]

Wanted to add that I needed to do the exact opposite as you, I did a 3 day water fast to deplete K, then on fourth day I started 25mg Zn. If I take Manganese is makes my acne worse. I think these are the 2 vectors to solving acne issues. I also took 200mg of Progesterone each day on the 3 day fast to further down-regulate Prog receptors. My hair mineral tests showed I had high cellular K, which I needed to deplete. 3bHSD won't kickstart in K saturated cells.

I'm not really sure if its prog dominance, or that Mang downregulates 3bHSD(major steroidal pathway), but you would be lowering Prog levels.

Explains why lots of females have success using spironolactone for acne, since its similar to Zn, in sparing K; "Spironolactone is a potassium-sparing diuretic (water pill) that prevents your body from absorbing too much sodium and keeps your potassium levels from getting too low."

So let me get this correct. You think zinc improves or does not improve acne? I'm not sure what would be best for facial seb derm that's what I suffer from and it seems that no amount of vitamins work the sebum pumps out and the dandruff grows from this(yeast). Vitamin A always seems to make it worse. Vitamin D mainly from sun improves it

 

[Orion]

So let me get this correct. You think zinc improves or does not improve acne? I'm not sure what would be best for facial seb derm that's what I suffer from and it seems that no amount of vitamins work the sebum pumps out and the dandruff grows from this(yeast). Vitamin A always seems to make it worse. Vitamin D mainly from sun improves it

Zn seems to only work, if you have proper K levels in the cell. Zn never worked for me until I did a 3day water fast to deplete K, since starting Zn on day 4, dandruff and acne are in remission.

I have taken massive amounts of vitamin A and used vitD, and that never helped either. Proper K levels makes the cell sensitive to thyroid, proper K levels with zinc kickstart 3bHSD, so you can your steroidal pathways up, this creates progesterone from active retinoic acid (vitamin A), thyroid and cholesterol.

Like RP says, vitamin A and thyroid help acne quickly, but getting your cells to do this. For me it seems it was K overload in the cells.

Also B6 and molybdenum are needed to make active retinoic acid, which along with 3bHSD create Prog from Pregnenolone.

 

[EIRE24]

Zn seems to only work, if you have proper K levels in the cell. Zn never worked for me until I did a 3day water fast to deplete K, since starting Zn on day 4, dandruff and acne are in remission.

I have taken massive amounts of vitamin A and used vitD, and that never helped either. Proper K levels makes the cell sensitive to thyroid, proper K levels with zinc kickstart 3bHSD, so you can your steroidal pathways up, this creates progesterone from active retinoic acid (vitamin A), thyroid and cholesterol.

Like RP says, vitamin A and thyroid help acne quickly, but getting your cells to do this. For me it seems it was K overload in the cells.

Also B6 and molybdenum are needed to make active retinoic acid, which along with 3bHSD create Prog from Pregnenolone.

So you think I should take lots of vitamin K and zinc together to try and eliminate this?

 

[Orion]

Sorry @Liubo for hijacking the thread!

@EIRE24 Sorry K means potassium, I had hair mineral tests that showed high cellular potassium. Vitamin K not part of the protocol, but probably good to take.

Potassium make yours cells sensitive to thyroid, its been called the thyroid receptor.

I would try a quick 3 day water fast(it depletes potassium so Zn can kickstart 3bHSD) and start Zn 25mg/day and normal diet on day 4 and skin how skin responds, within 5days of starting the fast went from full blown crappy skin to best ever in life. B3 and B6 and molybdenum should be considered too. Should be able to taper off Zn, in few weeks and then liver could be used weekly.

High cellular potassium shuts off 3bHSD.


Collected this from the PFS thread, it good to read through it all, but extremely long and info scattered everywhere, starts on this gbolduev post:
Post Finasteride Syndrome, 5ar, And The Brain

Here is some of the collected info on Accutane, theory that is acts like Fin/progestins, so explains how to resolve acne, but you have to deal with potassium first if its high and if low could go the manganese route.


"Same thing with accutane people. Accutane is an active vitamin A, it is retinoic acid. it bypasses all the regulations in retinoid pathway. Now go and see what is in retinoic pathway, ZINC takes retinol and converts to retinal, then you need NAD then you need aldehyde enzymes to convert it further down to retinoic acid. Accutane bypasses all of this. This tanks your Zinc, NAD, b2, molybdenum, Magnesium, B6. Same exact things needed for 3 beta HSD. Retinoic acid is what produces Progesterone.

Acne will be cleared with an active retinoic acid. To make that acid in your body, you don’t take ACCUTANE. You take Zinc, NAD, B6, Magnesium and then Manganese(might not be needed) molybdenum and b2. that is all.

Never take end of the pathway products, they will kill all the minerals and cofactors in the pathway. If you see some claim that some product cures something. Just look at the pathway and feed the pathway.

You see claim Accutane cures acne. Boom, you just open retinoic metabolism and feed the cofactors from the beginning. Zinc, then NAD, then B6 then molybdenum and b2

Like to make Progesterone you need retinoic acid and 3 beta HSD. You just need to feed the cofactors for that pathway, and never the end product, since if you feed the end product it kills all the cofactors in the pathway.

Liver does not have active vitamin A. Liver has retinol. active vitamin A is accutane which is retinoic acid, which is the end product of retinol metabolism. to get retinoic acid from retinol you need 5 steps and these steps include Zinc, NAD, B6 etc. so if you feed accutane, body lowers Zinc NAD, etc. You can eat liver no problem.

NAD ribose, active B6, Zinc, Magnesium molybdenum plus active b2 would be my stack for the symptoms."

 

[EIRE24]

Sorry @Liubo for hijacking the thread!

@EIRE24 Sorry K means potassium, I had hair mineral tests that showed high cellular potassium. Vitamin K not part of the protocol, but probably good to take.

Potassium make yours cells sensitive to thyroid, its been called the thyroid receptor.

I would try a quick 3 day water fast(it depletes potassium so Zn can kickstart 3bHSD) and start Zn 25mg/day and normal diet on day 4 and skin how skin responds, within 5days of starting the fast went from full blown crappy skin to best ever in life. B3 and B6 and molybdenum should be considered too. Should be able to taper off Zn, in few weeks and then liver could be used weekly.

High cellular potassium shuts off 3bHSD.


Collected this from the PFS thread, it good to read through it all, but extremely long and info scattered everywhere, starts on this gbolduev post:
Post Finasteride Syndrome, 5ar, And The Brain

Here is some of the collected info on Accutane, theory that is acts like Fin/progestins, so explains how to resolve acne, but you have to deal with potassium first if its high and if low could go the manganese route.


"Same thing with accutane people. Accutane is an active vitamin A, it is retinoic acid. it bypasses all the regulations in retinoid pathway. Now go and see what is in retinoic pathway, ZINC takes retinol and converts to retinal, then you need NAD then you need aldehyde enzymes to convert it further down to retinoic acid. Accutane bypasses all of this. This tanks your Zinc, NAD, b2, molybdenum, Magnesium, B6. Same exact things needed for 3 beta HSD. Retinoic acid is what produces Progesterone.

Acne will be cleared with an active retinoic acid. To make that acid in your body, you don’t take ACCUTANE. You take Zinc, NAD, B6, Magnesium and then Manganese(might not be needed) molybdenum and b2. that is all.

Never take end of the pathway products, they will kill all the minerals and cofactors in the pathway. If you see some claim that some product cures something. Just look at the pathway and feed the pathway.

You see claim Accutane cures acne. Boom, you just open retinoic metabolism and feed the cofactors from the beginning. Zinc, then NAD, then B6 then molybdenum and b2

Like to make Progesterone you need retinoic acid and 3 beta HSD. You just need to feed the cofactors for that pathway, and never the end product, since if you feed the end product it kills all the cofactors in the pathway.

Liver does not have active vitamin A. Liver has retinol. active vitamin A is accutane which is retinoic acid, which is the end product of retinol metabolism. to get retinoic acid from retinol you need 5 steps and these steps include Zinc, NAD, B6 etc. so if you feed accutane, body lowers Zinc NAD, etc. You can eat liver no problem.

NAD ribose, active B6, Zinc, Magnesium molybdenum plus active b2 would be my stack for the symptoms."

Thank you for the reply.

So you think that eating lots of potatoes due to the high potassium is not a good idea?

Also, would you worry about taking zinc without the copper to go along with it?

I am going to try the protocol but potatoes are a big part of my diet and would be crap if I had to drop them.

 

[Orion]

Thank you for the reply.

So you think that eating lots of potatoes due to the high potassium is not a good idea?

Also, would you worry about taking zinc without the copper to go along with it?

I am going to try the protocol but potatoes are a big part of my diet and would be crap if I had to drop them.

I think potatoes are fine, and you may not have high potassium. But once potassium is high in the cell for whatever reason it gets trapped:

"the reason people can’t restore quickly, since alkalosis supports itself and keeps Potassium very high in the cell... So, you get stuck with insensitive Progesterone which can’t get sensitive since Potassium is high in the cell and at the same time very high pressure on Cortisol. which causes the alkalosis in the first place. And this is the biochemical dead end in this case.

Zinc is lost in the urine in this case because of alkalosis thus you have high DHEA since it can't be converted into andro."

You should only need to take Zn for a few weeks at 25mg, this should not affect copper. Using liver or a multi with Bs, zn, cu, etc... afterward probably helpful.

Other thing I did since I am a accutane user, was 200mg Prog on each day on the fast, this was done to down-regulate Prog further and deplete potassium.

Anyway 3 day water fast is easy to try(gbolduev recommends even longer fasts, alot of the ideas are in direct contrast with RP), the only major side effect for me was horrible sleep. If you do try keep me posted, very interested in the results.

 

[Orion]

I also think this is why RP always recommends B6 and Zn for dandruff, but if you have potassium issues, it won't work. Same for acne, thyroid and vitamin A are recommended, but if you have potassium issues they won't work. Manganese seems to be useful when potassium is too low, it lowers 3bHSD activity to lower steroidal output, and gets potassium back in the cell... sensitizing to thyroid.

so two cases or vectors for acne.

 

[EIRE24]

I also think this is why RP always recommends B6 and Zn for dandruff, but if you have potassium issues, it won't work. Same for acne, thyroid and vitamin A are recommended, but if you have potassium issues they won't work. Manganese seems to be useful when potassium is too low, it lowers 3bHSD activity to lower steroidal output, and gets potassium back in the cell... sensitizing to thyroid.

so two cases or vectors for acne.

Surely there is a safer way to lower potassium than a 3 day water fast. I don't think I'll ever do a 3 day water fast to be honest.

 

[Terma]

I was using about 6 grams of glycine along with 6 tablespoons of gelatin. Using more milk in its place resulted in more weight loss and less water retention for myself. But because of the significant importance of glycine I didn't take it out of my diet for more than a few week's.
Maybe others wont have my similar experience.

I originally thought glycine was exclusively good for weight loss and the bloating was just vasopressin and something about chloride. But I can see how that's possible:
Glycine regulates the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines in lean and monosodium glutamate-obese mice. - PubMed - NCBI

Abstract
Fat tissue plays an important role in the regulation of inflammatory processes. Increased visceral fat has been associated with a higher production of cytokines that triggers a low-grade inflammatory response, which eventually may contribute to the development of insulin resistance. In the present study, we investigated whether glycine, an amino acid that represses the expression in vitro of pro-inflammatory cytokines in Kupffer and 3T3-L1 cells, can affect in vivo cytokine production in lean and monosodium glutamate-induced obese mice (MSG/Ob mice). Our data demonstrate that glycine treatment in lean mice suppressed TNF-alpha transcriptional expression in fat tissue, and serum protein levels of IL-6 were suppressed, while adiponectin levels were increased. In MSG/Ob mice, glycine suppressed TNF-alpha and IL-6 gene expression in fat tissue and significantly reduced protein levels of IL-6, resistin and leptin. To determine the role of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma (PPAR-gamma) in the modulation of this inflammatory response evoked by glycine, we examined its expression levels in fat tissue. Glycine clearly increased PPAR-gamma expression in lean mice but not in MSG/Ob mice. Finally, to identify alterations in glucose metabolism by glycine, we also examined insulin levels and other biochemical parameters during an oral glucose tolerance test. Glycine significantly reduced glucose tolerance and raised insulin levels in lean but not in obese mice. In conclusion, our findings suggest that glycine suppresses the pro-inflammatory cytokines production and increases adiponectin secretion in vivo through the activation of PPAR-gamma. Glycine might prevent insulin resistance and associated inflammatory diseases.

In lean mice glycine increases adipogenesis at least temporarily.