Water Retention, My Experience And Yours?

[superhuman]

Hello

I have been researching and doing this for some years now but i still struggle with the water retention/puffyness in my legs and face but also a little in general in my whole body.

I have asked Ray alot about it and have tried everything that should help but i have not managed to really fix the problem.

Im male and active athlete and i also lift weights.

The only thing that really makes a big difference, like overnight results are if i increase my protein intake by alot. Like 200-300g a day from animal protein. But in terms of calories, cost(money) and just overall this is not something i can do daily and in terms of Ray Peat its to much protein, since he recommends even for high level athletes that 100-150g a day is enough.

It clearly is something hormonal and i feel it has to be tied to maybe liver health or something else. Big doses of sodium bicarb also can reduce the water retention so increasing protein and co2 seems to do something.

I have tried everything else in the RP world and nothing has worked in terms of getting ridd of the water retention.

ive tried high dose b1, aspirin,k2,niacinamide,antibiotics(tetracycline),gelatin,taurine,vitamin A,D,no fat, perfect ratio in terms of sugar to protein from 2:1 to 4:1+, T3(cynomel),cynoplus, minerals like magnesium and all that in terms of minerals.

Nothing of those things has done anything, i havent noticed a thing from any of those things. The only difference i notice is from very high protein and alot of sodium bicarb. That is the only two things that produces results.

So would be cool to hear peoples input and maybe other has experience with that topic, because its frustrating to say the least.

Lately i think its tied to liver,stomach acid, albumin but im doing everything that i should to correct those but nothing is helping except those two things i mentioned.

 

[aquaman]

What's a typical day of eating for you? Not so much the specific foods, but the timing and rough macros.

I think if you get the food right, your hormones will correct themselves and you'll drop the water retention.

What are your temperatures and pulse pre and post-eating?

Eating earlier in the day, more consistently, with lower fluids and higher density foods (eg starches with coconut oil and cooked fruits) helps. I could never warm up with just fruit, adding starches helped with my metabolic rate massively.

 

[superhuman]

@aquaman

Right now its 4 regular meals which is 1 quart skimmed milk with sugar and salt as a staple each meal and then i may have something in addition, say fruit or whatever. Macros are 120-150g protein and minimum 2x that from carbs.

temp are a little low and pulse is also a little low in the 65`s. Both rise a bit after eating.

I eat breakfast an just every 3-5 hours.

Im not sold on the fluid thing. If i drink 7 liter of skimmed milk i get warmer and ALOT less water retention, because of the increase in protein. Ray Peat has also said that its not fluid thats the problem, thats just something Matt Stone started to write about. Ray Peat has only notice a concern in terms of water intake, and only drinking water when thirsty instead of forcing in x amounts.

 

[skycop00]

Curious as to your Estrogen levels and Potassium levels...?

 

[superhuman]

@skycop00 I dont know but ive done all the anti etrogen things, vitamin E, aspirin etc etc and also ran a cycle of Aromasin just to kill it. When i checked blood work potassium levels where fine, and they should be since i get plenty everyday from the milk

 

[BibleBeliever]

Sodium bicarb produces results because of the salt. Salt decreases water retention. Not enough salt increases it. Estrogen increases water retention, which excessive milk often can increase.

Since you work out, HGH can be a culprit too. I find after work outs sometimes a severe desire of thirst. Sometimes I will put on a bunch of weighted vests, go walk for 1.5 hour and climb up 500 stairs. When I come home I want to drink 4 liters of water. First I will consume ample amounts of sugar and salt and find my thirst decrease significantly. HGH causes water to be retained in the muscles with no real benefit.

Ray writes about the negatives of HGH. I was skeptical at first, but I always note this same effect. Sugar is a well known counter to HGH.

 

[Peata]

Sodium bicarb produces results because of the salt. Salt decreases water retention. Not enough salt increases it. Estrogen increases water retention, which excessive milk often can increase.

Since you work out, HGH can be a culprit too. I find after work outs sometimes a severe desire of thirst. Sometimes I will put on a bunch of weighted vests, go walk for 1.5 hour and climb up 500 stairs. When I come home I want to drink 4 liters of water. First I will consume ample amounts of sugar and salt and find my thirst decrease significantly. HGH causes water to be retained in the muscles with no real benefit.

Ray writes about the negatives of HGH. I was skeptical at first, but I always note this same effect. Sugar is a well known counter to HGH.

I need to remember that about sugar and salt before I drown myself in water. When I get home from work sometimes from the heat, I feel like a bottomless well, and I just want to drink, drink . As I'm doing it, I know it can't be normal, but I'm just so... thirsty. The last time I gave in and drank a lot of water, within minutes I had a bad eye twitch, so I think it diluted something in my system. I thought I was getting enough sugar and salt when I ate after work, but maybe not as much as I need.

Are you just downing sugar and salt, or are there specific foods or drinks you find effective for the thirst?

 

[superhuman]

@JackHanma Well exept it does not. I have tried the same with regular salt and it just increases the water retention because i get more thirsty.

I have read everything Ray has written and tried it also and the salt thing has not produced the effect for me, but the sodium bicarb has.

I never drown myself in water i just drink a little when im thirsty since most of the fluid i drink is from skimmed milk.

 

[BibleBeliever]

I need to remember that about sugar and salt before I drown myself in water. When I get home from work sometimes from the heat, I feel like a bottomless well, and I just want to drink, drink . As I'm doing it, I know it can't be normal, but I'm just so... thirsty. The last time I gave in and drank a lot of water, within minutes I had a bad eye twitch, so I think it diluted something in my system. I thought I was getting enough sugar and salt when I ate after work, but maybe not as much as I need.

Are you just downing sugar and salt, or are there specific foods or drinks you find effective for the thirst?

At work I usually have a plain sea salt that I grind into my mouth. I take palm sugar as well in combination.
Sometimes I will just add 5 grams of salt or so to 1 coffee with lots of raw honey/blackstrap molasses to quench thirst.

If I just drink water instead, I find I feel weak, irritable and sometimes get joint pain. It is strange that excessive water can do this and how easily thirst can lie.

 

[BibleBeliever]

@JackHanma Well exept it does not. I have tried the same with regular salt and it just increases the water retention because i get more thirsty.

I have read everything Ray has written and tried it also and the salt thing has not produced the effect for me, but the sodium bicarb has.

I never drown myself in water i just drink a little when im thirsty since most of the fluid i drink is from skimmed milk.

I find it has to be the combo of salt and sugar to work, but if it still doesn't work for you then at least the bicarb works.

I read this about milk being estrogenic. The premise is we over-milk our cows, in addition to their living conditions and additives, which causes this effect:

Milk and Testosterone: The Effect of Dairy on T-Levels

Could then excess milk cause water retention? If so, is it primary based on milk brand and their quality?

 

[tara]

Big doses of sodium bicarb also can reduce the water retention so increasing protein and co2 seems to do something.

I have tried everything else in the RP world and nothing has worked in terms of getting ridd of the water retention.

ive tried high dose b1, aspirin,k2,niacinamide,antibiotics(tetracycline),gelatin,taurine,vitamin A,D,no fat, perfect ratio in terms of sugar to protein from 2:1 to 4:1+, T3(cynomel),cynoplus, minerals like magnesium and all that in terms of minerals.

Nothing of those things has done anything, i havent noticed a thing from any of those things. The only difference i notice is from very high protein and alot of sodium bicarb. That is the only two things that produces results.

Just as another angle, have you paid much attention to breathing, via bag-breathing, Buteyko techniques, pranayama or other anti-hyperventilation methods?

 

[Koveras]

Have you tried urea?

 

[superhuman]

@JackHanma i asked Ray about the milk and estrogen and he said it was false, and like i said if i drink 7 quarts of skimmed milk i dont get water retention or it gets less because of the protein so fluid amount does not matter.

5g salt in coffee, how can that taste any good? Ray always say salt food to taste and use salt to taste, does not seem fun to smack down salt if it tastes ***t thats just putting more stress on.

@tara yes i have tried bag breathing and all that. Dont notice much effects, i also always breath through my nose and all that so it all should be good.

@Koveras yes i have, did not do anything and i did quite the amounts also :p

 

[aquaman]

@aquaman

Right now its 4 regular meals which is 1 quart skimmed milk with sugar and salt as a staple each meal and then i may have something in addition, say fruit or whatever. Macros are 120-150g protein and minimum 2x that from carbs.

Wow. A gallon of skim milk a day. Do you enjoy this? How long have you done this? I love milk but over a quart a day I'd be hating it, and I'd be cold and peeing a lot.

When was the last time you were eating actual meals of solid food?

I need 700 calories at least for the first 2 meals of the day - so 1400 in total, normally by 1pm. The more calorie heavy at breakfast the better my metabolic rate is for the whole day (generally I like some starch with coconut oil for breakfast along with fruit, eggs and some juice and some casein protein powder). It seems you'd be getting around 400-500 calories per meal.

If you really just want to have the skim milk, you make it into farmer's cheese and cut out most of the fluid. If you search water retention on the forum there is the quote from Peat about serotonin and too much fluid hitting the stomach at one time. I don't see why this only applies to water and not skim milk.

RP: Yes, even before the inflammation, there’s the energy problem. And something as simple as drinking too much water in relation to the energy your body is producing, for example a low thyroid person who can’t produce much metabolic energy, is very susceptible to drinking too much water and getting a very general disruption of their physiology. A pint or so of water passing suddenly through your stomach to your intestine causes a surge of serotonin release, and that’s simply a model of stress or shock in general, anything that shocks you or stresses you tends to start the same process that just a surge of water hitting the intestine is enough to increase serotonin, which then stimulates the production of prolactin, and prolactin is associated with water retention. Serotonin itself is, in a direct way, and serotonin increases the production of aldosterone, which produces water retention and inflammation and sets off a chain of reactions that lead to such things as heart failure.​

There are also plenty of people on the forum who talk about not being able to raise their metabolic rate with milk, especially skim milk. Temps and pulse low = metabolic rate low. Your focus should be on this. Beyond everything, Ray's underlying principle is eat to increase the metabolic rate.

 

[superhuman]

@aquaman

I have only been doing it for 2 weeks now because im on a no fat diet because i want to drop some fat, but i have done it all. Only low fat cheese, cottage cheese and all that and no fluid. It does not matter, and again when you look at what Ray is talking about and what you pasted he talks about WATER not milk, he has told me many times that milk is osmotic and will not cause any of the things in terms of to much fluid/water.

I suspect that many of the people get cold from drinking alot of milk because they drink the milk and its cold so of course, eating warm starch and other foods that are warm will make you feel warmer at that moment. Try heating the milk and drink it like tea or warm and i guarantee you will feel warmer.

Also if you have read the milk cure where they only drink ***t ton of milk, its probably the most success full "diet" for treating edema/water retention.

I know im getting only around 400-500 calories a meal now because im in a fat loss phase, but it does not matter and the water retention gets worse if im in a caloric surplus because then i store more water and fat on top of that. Unnless i smack down alot of protein then the water retention is not that bad.

 

[aquaman]

Your metabolic rate is low as shown by your pulse and temp. You need to eat to raise it. If you've tried it all and been on the forum for more than 3 years, then whatever you've tried hasn't been the right balance of foods.

 

[superhuman]

@aquaman sure it is but i know alot of people that have worse metabolic rate then me that does not have water retention problems. Like i said, this is not something that is related to what im currently eating this has been something during this whole time.

Its also strange that Ray has said many times that starch is not ideal and esp for people with water retention since it raises endotoxins which is linked to edema and water retention.

I dont think it has something to do with right balance of foods or like i told you i have found what helps me but that is 200-300g protein a day but that has to be telling that something is wrong because Ray says that a person should not need that much so there has to be something in regards to protein metabolism or something that may make me not assimilate all the protein or something else.

 

[scarlettsmum]

Could be just my experience but I lost lots of water just by taking ritanserin 1-2 drops per day.

 

[superhuman]

@scarlettsmum that i have never tried

 

[scarlettsmum]

@scarlettsmum that i have never tried

Maybe ask others on the ritanserin thread if anyone had similar experience. I had a physio/massage therapist do lymphomassage and nothing and she was trying to get me to drink special tea to release water and nothing. Then I took ritanserin for other reason and all the water went away, she was really surprised, couldn't believe it. I no longer take it as it gave me anxiety but so far water didn't come back. Am back on cypro now btw. Not sure if it will have the same effect though. Btw. at the time when I was taking ritanserin I wasn't taking anything else besides the usual 8 drops of estroban.