Water Malabsorption Syndrome?

[TheBeard]

No matter how much water I drink during the day, coupled with fruit, I wake up in the morning with burning throat and dehydrated mouth.

I pee large volumes compared to what I drink, like my body doesn't hold to water at all.

A typical day will consist of fruit for breakfast and all morning: watermelon, oranges, apples.

Lunch will be meat + veggies + carbs.

Dinner will be either fruit again if I am thirsty, or rice + veggies + fish or meat.


My water intake during the day on top of fruit will be around 2L of mineral water.

I take no supplement at all.


What could that extreme thirst and cracked lips indicate? Which organ is malfunctioning?

I don't sweat during the day except a little when I exercise.

 

[Nighteyes]

Do you get enough sodium (salt). It is related to fluid retention / balance in the body and maintaining blood volume

 

[TheBeard]

Do you get enough sodium (salt). It is related to fluid retention / balance in the body and maintaining blood volume

Everything seems to be pointing out in this direction indeed!

I stopped adding salt to my food a while ago, may be why I’m now deficient.

I’m going to start drinking the Snake Juice from Cole on a daily.

Seems like a comprehensive electrolyte drink

 

[Nighteyes]

Why not just start salting your food with sea salt according to taste? No need to introduce more variables than necessary. That product has a lot of potassium chloride and perhaps not the ideal ratio of sodium:potassium if you are low on sodium.

Sounds like you are getting plenty of potassium on the diet you are describing..

 

[InChristAlone]

Wow, you drink 2L water on top of watermelon and fruit? I couldn't fathom drinking that much water. Of course it's going to go right through you and lead to dehydration! The kidneys have to maintain an adequate level of sodium and will waste the water to keep the sodium high enough. Need to cut back water drinking and salt all your foods. Should clear it up. Also the dry burning mouth sounds like mouth breathing to me. Try taping your mouth shut at night.

 

[Cirion]

Dehydrated in morning often means you mouth breath / lose CO2 in your sleep. I know this through personal experience. That said, be careful not to go to the other extreme and stop drinking water entirely. If your urine starts to smell really bad and is really dark, that means you need to drink something.

 

[TheBeard]

I just started drinking a mixture of himalayan pink salt and Epsom salts yesterday.

Morning dehydration seems to be getting better already

 

[Amazoniac]

All About Hydration - What you DON'T Know About Electrolytes & Why There Is A Better Alternative!

I'm making an electrolyte drink consisting of plain sugar and sodium (either sea salt or baking soda).

Using the info provided on the blog:

See this to convert mmol : CDC - Salt Resources - Sodium Reduction Toolkit - DHDSP

I determined that the correct concentrations are:

Sea salt = 30/39% sodium => 2.6g-5.9g/L
Baking soda = 27.36% sodium => 3.3g-7.5g/L
Glucose = 20-25g => 40-50g sugar/L (50% glucose)

I find that I tolerate the salt better that way.

Thank you for bringing up these figures, I was familiar with the concept (Raj and Mito mentioned), but not how it applies.

The main purpose of these solutions is to rehydrate, not nourish, but we know it's possible to do both (milch, juice, coconut water, on so and).

They have the diarrhea factor and have to overcome it. Drawing more fluids to the intestines can't be afforded (sometimes the state is critical), so making it concentrated is not viable, which goes on the opposite direction of what would be needed for the malnourishment of degenerative conditions that we find here, where dense nutrition is need'd, and in some cases a slight dehydration is desirable (Light, 2019). In other words, for them replenishing water in the least disturbing way is the priority due to the insane losses, for other people it may be the nutrition. They can only get close to the 'taste of tears' because it might be in excess of what's needed for encouraging movement of water, but most people tend towards constipation with plenty of time for nutrients to be uptaken.

Spoiler

Source: the internet.
I haven't verified if these are right.

For the most part, the directions are meant for fetuses with acute infections, not adults (who have a more flexible margin) with chronic ones and metabolic deragements. Some people don't retain nutrients well, and drinking more water will dilute those that are already low and possibly flush them out on excretion (not just minerals, a lot of other compounds that is water-soluble), an electrolyte formula is incomplete.

I think that it's also attempted by them to simplify it to be used anywhere (even in precarious conditions). Availability, stability and price of ingredients will affect which ones are chosen.

The generalization aspect is against them as well, because they have to suggest or formulate a product that will serve most cases, yet it doesn't mean that it's optimized to the individual. For example, they mention how the nature of the diarrheal infection changes what has to be replenished.

I wouldn't be faithful to those amounts, it's preferable to go by taste if unsure about the reasons. Their directions can serve as a starting place nevertheless, but would still require adjustment to what you find palatable.

But the reviews from users (with random conditions) of these hydration formulas are too positive to not be doing something good and unique. Yet, I doubt that it can't be improved by personalizing to suit your needs.

Thank you again, I almost created a new thread with your post, blame TheBeard for not having.

All About Hydration - What you DON'T Know About Electrolytes & Why There Is A Better Alternative!

⬑ Oral Rehydration Therapy ORT - How Oral Rehydration Therapy - ORT Works - Rehydration Project
⬑ Oral Rehydration Solutions Made at Home - Rehydration Project
⬑ Oral Rehydration Therapy (ORT) - Rehydration Project

"For optimal absorption, the composition of the rehydration solution is critical. The amount of fluid absorbed depends on three factors: the concentration of sodium, the concentration of glucose and the osmolarity of the luminal fluid. Maximal water uptake occurs with a sodium concentration from 40 to 90 mmol/L, a glucose concentration from 110 to 140 mmol/L (2.0 to 2.5 g/100 mL) and an osmolarity of about 290 mOsm/L, the osmolarity of body fluids.[6] Increasing the sodium beyond 90 mmol/L may result in hypernatremia; increasing the glucose concentration beyond 200 mOsm/L, by increasing the osmolarity of the solution, may result in a net loss of water. CHO to Na ratio should not exceed 2:1 in these solutions."​

- Oral rehydration therapy - Wikipedia

- Sodium content of oral rehydration solutions: a reappraisal (!)
- Use of Electrolytes in Fluid Replacement Solutions: What Have We Learned From Intestinal Absorption Studies? - Fluid Replacement and Heat Stress

- Oral Rehydration Therapy: New Explanations for an Old Remedy
- Oral rehydration therapy: applied physiology

- Osmolality of Commercially Available Oral Rehydration Solutions: Impact of Brand, Storage Time, and Temperature

- Optimal Composition of Fluid-Replacement Beverages

Spoiler

As it might be expected, what follows has nothing to do with a patented method that I've developed to wake people up, consisting of asking them a vague question in a serious tone, so that for them to judge if they can dismiss (might be something important) and return to sleep requires processing it, which can't be done when asleep, and by the time they answer, they're already awake.

Spoiler: It's better to read the publication instead

"[..]the optimal fluid replacement beverage would be one that is palatable enough so as not to impede drinking and perhaps even promote drinking when individuals would otherwise wish to avoid it (e.g., extreme, prolonged loss of appetite and desire to drink due to sickness, altitude, or cold stress)."

"Very little absorption of water and solutes takes place in the stomach, thus the ingested fluid must be emptied from the stomach and delivered to the lumen of the small intestine before it can enter the circulation. The gastric emptying rate of liquids is faster than that of solids and solutions with lower energy density empty faster than those of higher energy density (236). Gastric emptying of liquids is regulated by the interaction of gastric volume and feedback inhibition related to the nutrient content of the small intestine (234, 235, 333). Gastric emptying can be maintained at a high rate (15 to more than 20 mL/min) by maintaining a high gastric volume with ingestion of either water or a dilute carbohydrate solution."

"Absorption of water and solutes occurs primarily in the proximal small intestine (duodenum and jejunum)."

"Water absorption follows solute absorption; that is, water uptake is a passive process, dependent on an osmotic gradient which is created by absorption of solutes (333, 436)."

"In general, the higher the energy density and osmolality of the ingested beverage the slower the rate of gastric emptying and intestinal fluid absorption, respectively (334, 436)."

"[..]once the ingested fluid enters the bloodstream, a sufficient volume of the fluid needs to be retained to rehydrate and offset losses incurred through sweating, respiration, and/or urination. Thus, the optimal fluid-replacement beverage would be formulated to facilitate renal water reabsorption (described in detail above) as opposed to stimulating diuresis. In addition, the beverage should promote retention of fluid in the compartment (intracellular or extracellular) that has incurred the fluid deficit. For example, in the case of significant hypovolemia, the aim would be to promote fluid retention in the vascular space."

"When someone overdrinks (drinks more fluid than they have lost through sweating, urination, etc.) he or she can become hypervolemic (overall increased volume of plasma), and hypo-osmotic (dilution of plasma contents). Excessive consumption of fluids (especially sodium-free fluid, such as water) over a prolonged period of time can lead to the dilution of sodium concentration in the blood. This rare, but potentially dangerous condition is called hyponatremia. The plasma sodium concentration of those with symptoms of hyponatremia is typically less than 130 mmol/L. Normal resting plasma sodium concentration ranges from 135 to 145 mmol/L. The reduction in solute concentration in plasma promotes movement of water from the plasma into cells (327)."

"The rapidity, with which the serum sodium concentration declines, as well as the absolute change, impacts the severity of the symptoms. In a 70-kg man, approximately 5.1 L increase in total body water is required to decrease serum sodium concentration to 125 mmol/L from an initial concentration of 140 mmol/L (239)."

"The main objective of a fluid-replacement beverage is to replace water lost from the body." "Beverage composition can have a substantial impact on fluid ingestion, gastric emptying, intestinal fluid absorption, fluid distribution, and fluid retention. Therefore, when fluid replacement is the main objective, the beverage should be formulated to optimize these processes."

"To improve water absorption, the minimum glucose concentration needed in a beverage is 0.9% (185)."

"[..]carbohydrate type greatly impacts the osmolality of a beverage, with maltodextrin and starch having lower osmolality than mono- and disaccharides. Carbohydrate amount and type also impact the sweetness and thus the palatability of fluid replacement beverages. For example, compared to sucrose (table sugar, relative sweetness rating of 100) solutions that contain crystalline fructose (rating of 180) or high fructose corn syrup (rating 105-130) have higher relative sweetness whereas glucose (rating of 50-70) and maltose (rating 50) taste less sweet. Moreover, complex carbohydrates such as maltodextrin and starch have very low sweetness levels (44, 337)."

"The presence of sodium in a fluid-replacement beverage enhances palatability and stimulates the physiological drive to drink. By contrast, consumption of plain water decreases plasma osmolality and sodium concentration, which reduce the drive to drink, oftentimes before body water volume has been fully restored (351, 478)."

"Chloride is usually included as the major anion in most fluid-replacement beverages. This is due in part to chloride being the anion lost in the greatest amount in sweat. There is limited information available about the effect of a fluid replacement beverages’ anion content on intestinal water and solute absorption. One study has investigated the absorption rate of a test solution with various anion compositions while holding sodium and glucose concentrations constant. Using the triple-lumen catheter technique, Fordtran (167) perfused a solution with 80 mmol/L of sodium and 65 mmol/L of glucose with either chloride, bicarbonate, or sulfate as the anion to sodium. The author reported that maximal water and sodium absorption in the jejunum was attained with chloride, followed by bicarbonate, and then sulfate."

"It is important to note that very high sodium concentrations (≥50 mmol/L) [] decrease drink palatability (507), which could hinder ad libitum fluid intake. However, the unpalatable salty taste from high concentrations of sodium chloride (the typical source of sodium) can be decreased by substituting other anions (such as citrate) for chloride (440). The increase in serum sodium concentration and osmolality with sodium ingestion stimulates renal water reabsorption. Furthermore, because sodium is the primary extracellular osmolyte, ingestion of sodium helps maintain extracellular fluid volume, including plasma volume."

"Potassium is the major cation in the intracellular fluid compartment. The balance of potassium in the extracellular versus intracellular space has important effects on neural transmission, muscle contraction, and vascular tone. Potassium is often included in fluid replacement beverages in relatively small amounts to replace losses due to sweating or diarrhea. Furthermore, potassium influences the concentration of sodium in the blood. This is because plasma sodium concentration is a function of the mass balance of sodium, potassium, and water (148, 346, 361)."

"A key step in the development of oral rehydration solutions was the finding that glucose and sodium transport is coupled in the small intestine and this process is unaffected by the pathologies that induce water secretion into the gut (29, 37, 158)."

"Oral rehydration solutions and sports drinks are commonly considered to be interchangeable. While there are some similarities in their composition, oral rehydration solutions and sports drinks are formulated for two distinct purposes. Oral rehydration solutions are formulated to replace fluid and electrolyte losses in individuals suffering from diarrhea- and vomiting-induced hypohydration. Conversely, sports drinks are formulated for rehydration, replenishment of sweat electrolyte losses, and provision of energy during/after exercise. The differences in electrolyte concentration in these two types of beverages reflect the differences in electrolyte losses in diarrhea and vomit versus sweat. The main formulation differences between sports drinks and oral rehydration solutions are summarized in Table 5. This table also includes a comparison with sodium loading beverages designed to counteract expected changes in plasma volume with exposure to microgravity, bed rest, or exercise/heat stress."

"Carbohydrate amount and type also affects the rate of intestinal fluid absorption (436). This is likely related to the impact of carbohydrate concentration on beverage osmolality. The osmolality of a beverage increases linearly with increases in carbohydrate and electrolyte concentration; and intestinal water absorption is inversely proportional to beverage osmolality. Thus, intestinal water absorption is greater with hypotonic solutions than isotonic or hypertonic solutions. However, formulating a beverage with multiple transportable carbohydrates seems to offset some of the negative effect of beverage hyperosmolality as Shi et al. (437) and Gisolfi et al. (186) reported no differences in water absorption at rest or exercise among carbohydrate-electrolyte solutions ranging from 186 to 417 mOsm/kg."

"Because individual carbohydrate types are transported across enterocytes via different mechanisms (passive diffusion vs. facilitated diffusion vs. active transport) their absorption rates vary (436)." "[..]utilizing only one transport mechanism with glucose-only beverages limits the amount of carbohydrate that can be absorbed. However, when glucose and another carbohydrate (fructose) that uses a different transporter (GLUT5) are ingested simultaneously, intestinal absorption of carbohydrate, sodium, and water increases (436)."

"In general, carbohydrates can be divided in two categories: those that can be oxidized at rates up to 60 g/h and those that are oxidized at much lower rates (up to about 40 g/h). The faster oxidized carbohydrates include glucose, maltose, sucrose, maltodextrins, and amylopectin starches. The slower oxidized carbohydrates include fructose, galactose, isomaltulose, trehalose, and insoluble (amylose) starches (as reviewed in ref. 252)."

"The “optimal” ratio may therefore be determined by what is practical. Because athletes are generally able to ingest 90 g carbohydrate per hour, the recommendation often is 60 g/h glucose plus 30 g/h fructose (giving a 2:1 ratio of glucose:fructose) (248)."

 

[Mark2020]

No matter how much water I drink during the day, coupled with fruit, I wake up in the morning with burning throat and dehydrated mouth.

I pee large volumes compared to what I drink, like my body doesn't hold to water at all.

A typical day will consist of fruit for breakfast and all morning: watermelon, oranges, apples.

Lunch will be meat + veggies + carbs.

Dinner will be either fruit again if I am thirsty, or rice + veggies + fish or meat.


My water intake during the day on top of fruit will be around 2L of mineral water.

I take no supplement at all.


What could that extreme thirst and cracked lips indicate? Which organ is malfunctioning?

I don't sweat during the day except a little when I exercise.

I've been there before, my friend. Guzzling down a gallon of water, along with juicy fruits, and was FREEZING cold, even in the summer. I remember times where I was outdoors in the shade in 80 degree weather, and felt like I needed a sweatshirt on.

To echo what others are saying, salt is VITAL in helping with this. And for the love of God, drink less water! You don't need that much, unless you're running 5 miles a day or something.

 

[nikotrope]

Thanks for the suggestion! I struggle so much with hydration and it causes me so many headaches. I am going to try to drink something with those ratios, we'll see.

 

[RealNeat]

B vitamins can play a role. Especially with chapped corners of the mouth, if that's an issue.

Plus, as we know, B vitamins role in proper utilization of the sugar you consume.

Diabetics also have this constant thirst. I agree with what everyone else posted, but just another angle.

----

Another note, in Ayurveda and Middle Eastern tradition there is the practice of sipping water.

this is done by a few sips of water every 30min for a few days.

This works well for me without having to increase quantity you are essentially just always keeping your mucous membranes moist.

plus the water is better adjusted for bodily temperature in smaller sips.

 

[SOMO]

Try Xylitol and salt.

Unlike water, Xylitol actually forces saliva out of your parotid glands to moisten your mouth.

 

[TheBeard]

I've been there before, my friend. Guzzling down a gallon of water, along with juicy fruits, and was FREEZING cold, even in the summer. I remember times where I was outdoors in the shade in 80 degree weather, and felt like I needed a sweatshirt on.

To echo what others are saying, salt is VITAL in helping with this. And for the love of God, drink less water! You don't need that much, unless you're running 5 miles a day or something.

Thanks.

My morning thirst condition is much better now.
I almost don't drink any water anymore, and feel much more hydrated.
The only liquids I consume are:
Raw milk
Fruit juice

increased salt intake too

 

[Amazoniac]

- Use of Electrolytes in Fluid Replacement Solutions: What Have We Learned From Intestinal Absorption Studies? - Fluid Replacement and Heat Stress

"Although Na+ appears to be required to maximize glucose and water absorption in the small intestine, is it necessary to include Na+ in fluid replacement beverages or will intestinal secretions suffice in supplying the needed electrolytes? In a recent study by Wheeler and Banwell (1986), there was no difference in water absorption from carbohydrate-electrolyte solutions perfused into the jejunum of normal human subjects compared with that when plain water was perfused. They concluded that the limiting factor in rehydration was gastric emptying. In a similar study, Gisolfi et al. (1990) found significantly greater water absorption from a 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte solution than from distilled water. The difference between studies could be attributed to differences in the intestinal segment perfused, the form of carbohydrate used, or the electrolyte concentration of the solutions. Wheeler and Banwell (1986) perfused the jejunum with solutions containing complex carbohydrates and 10 meq of Na+ per liter, whereas Gisolfi et al. (1990) perfused the duodenojejunum with more simple sugars and 20 meq of Na+ per liter."​

If you drink plain water on empty stomach, it will dilute its content and combine with the iods present that later interact with secretions from pancreas. I wonder how stomach acidity affects how you handle it.

 

[Amazoniac]

If rate matters, wow is beverage temperature? The results of these experiments agree that equal or colder than the body is, in particular because won't is digestion, making initial temperature more important.

- Effect of meal temperature on gastric emptying of liquids in man

Spoiler

- Gastric emptying of liquid and solid meals at various temperatures

Spoiler

- The effects of water temperature on gastric motility and energy intake in healthy young men

 

[Amazoniac]

- Oral Rehydration Therapy: New Explanations for an Old Remedy

"Original references to the modern history of oral rehydration can be found in a number of reports (1, 2). In the late 1940s and early 1950s, a balanced salt solution was found to help correct the acidosis in children with acute diarrhea (11a)."​

- Response to 1L of normal saline (infusion) | Deranged Physiology


Expressing hydrogen iod concentration in pH units isn't intuitive.

- Simplified Wastewater Treatment Plant Operations (??) (978-1-56676-216-8)

Spoiler

Spoiler: Hydrogen ion concentrations and pH

Source: the internet.

 

[nikotrope]

I'll add another way to rehydrate that, for me at least, works a lot better than milk, fruit juice, ORS, or just using more salt during meals. Dissolving 0.5-1g of salt in the mouth then drinking liquid has been better than anything I've tried previously for my hydration. I do that upon waking upon, 30 minutes before meals, and before bed. Works like a charm.

 

[TheBeard]

There are days that I drink milk only, for like 2-3 days in a row, eat nothing else.
At the end of those 3 days, I feel very deflated and I have headaches.
Since then I always add salt to the milk or kefir and I feel fine

 

[Twohandsondeck]

This is what I've gathered from this thread:

Hydration = 2:1 sodium: potassium ratio, whatever amount of chloride is in salt (60% of salt is chloride I think), some zinc, some magnesium, and glucose as a catalyst or a carrier (unsure which)

With this knowledge combined and my chalkboard fresh out of space...

I ate a cup of red grapes (175mg potassium), took a 150mg magnesium supplement, 15mg zinc supplement, added 1/4 teaspoon of salt to a cup of milk and I feel the powers of WATER RETENTION flowing through my veins!

Thanks, RPF fam. Much love!

 

[Amazoniac]

Wow, this is really interesting, do you have any link to somuch4food's thread, or any link with more informations on this? What would be the optimal concentration of electrolytes in water, to promote optimal hydration?

It's the discussion above.

It's often mentioned the problems in drinking sea water, but that's if you're a adrift and can't make up for the imbalance later on, it's like eating a salty meal without access to water.
- Osmosis - Why Drinking Salt Water Causes Dehydration | CHEM 114: Introductory Chemistry - College of Marin

It's tempting to stick to the formulations suggested, but being meticulate about it isn't the best approach, their goal is to rehydrate (not nourish) because it's meant for people who are in critical conditions losing fluids. The most palatable drink you can come up with through combination of ingredients is probably the ideal solution for your current state (needs will vary, the proportions are going to be off anyway). Many of us will tend to prefer dense foods due to the concentrated nutrition <contemplating chocolate fountain> rather than pulling more water devoid of it.

It's simpler to think in terms of salting the beverages of the diet. For example, a tea is going to be more valuable than plain water, and salting it a bit can make it more physiological and help in retention.

The combination of bull**** and liquid is unnecessary inconvenience for alkalinizing and diluting the stomach content. It would be easier on digestion to take it already reacted or in advance (with little dilution).

The quality of supplements is concerning here because of lack of solids and less competition to prevent the uptake of impurities. Constipation prolongs the exposure to them and increases the chances of absorption. The salts have to be grass-fed and finished, there's garbage on the market conforming to USP standards, and some contaminants build up in the body over time making a product that's relatively pure in the short-term fine, but in the long-term worrying.