WARNING: Gum Disease/tooth Decay/anaesthetic/Orange Juice

FinnRooney

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
49
Hi everyone,

Just wanted to let everyone know that I’ve had one of the most painful experiences of my life today. Had to get a significant filling on one of my back teeth.

I haven’t had a filling in years. This was brought about by my consumption of (high quality) commercial orange juice/abandonment of dental care.

I write this post as a warning to others, not as a criticism of ray peat or anyone on the forum. I understand it’s my own fault, however I want to issue a warning that quality is everything when it comes to oranges. The advice I’ve read around here ‘it’s better than nothing’ I believe is false and should be considered carefully before being said. I fully understand that in perfect health the body can get rid of the citric acid efficiently. But we are certainly not perfect and I would assume most of the people visiting the site initially aren’t in terribly ‘great’ health.

I understand sweet oranges do not contain the same amount of critic acid and have a higher pH.

I also had become a bit relaxed about oral care because of scepticism around the site about anything really to do with chemicals.

I think it’s very important to point out that what I’ve gone through today (a butt load of anaesthetic, stress, almost passing out several times from holding my breath awaiting the pain of the drill hitting a nerve). This is something I never wish to go through again. I believe there is a place for oranges and what not but I’m telling you now. I’m not touching them regularly for as long as I can remember today.

I think it’s something everyone should be aware of on the site if it isn’t clear enough (wasn’t to me, maybe that’s just me though, I know I’m gonna get that backlash).

Take care of your teeth/mouth, and be VERY careful with citrus!

If anyone is interested, “kiss your dentist goodbye” is an incredible book. Would recommend.

(Ps incase anyone is new to this, citric acid has a direct ph lowering effect in your mouth. When the ph is below 5.5, tooth decay begins. Sugar can feed bacteria which in turn make corrosive acids, however sugar directly does not cause cavities. There was a study in which they bred mice to not have a certain bacteria in their mouth and no amount of sugar caused any problems. I’d say if you’re in the initial stage of recovery. DONT DITCH YOUR PRODUCTS, because you are not perfect... harsh but seriously, I don’t wish what happened to me today on anyone.)
 

Runenight201

Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Messages
1,434
I think it’s important to brush when you feel plaque on your teeth.

If you don’t produce plaque on your teeth, you probably don’t need to brush.

No tooth sensitivity, pink gums, no recession, no plaque, then dental care probably isn’t necessary.

Anything else...and it’s probably better to take care of those choppers.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
5,029
I haven’t had a filling in years. This was brought about by my consumption of (high quality) commercial orange juice/abandonment of dental care.
...

I’d say if you’re in the initial stage of recovery. DONT DITCH YOUR PRODUCTS, because you are not perfect... harsh but seriously, I don’t wish what happened to me today on anyone.)

I don't think most people on this site thought to "abandon" dental care. In fact, there are quite a few threads dedicated to taking care of teeth. You also don't have to "ditch" products, but just replace them with more natural ones. For example, you don't have to brush with Crest, you can use salt and baking soda (recommended by Dentist Hal Huggins, even over most toothpastes).

I know I've spoken favorably about water piks, I think others have as well.

And yeah, it's certainly not a good idea to leave any acid on your teeth for a significant amount of time.
 

Broken man

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,426
Hi everyone,

Just wanted to let everyone know that I’ve had one of the most painful experiences of my life today. Had to get a significant filling on one of my back teeth.

I haven’t had a filling in years. This was brought about by my consumption of (high quality) commercial orange juice/abandonment of dental care.

I write this post as a warning to others, not as a criticism of ray peat or anyone on the forum. I understand it’s my own fault, however I want to issue a warning that quality is everything when it comes to oranges. The advice I’ve read around here ‘it’s better than nothing’ I believe is false and should be considered carefully before being said. I fully understand that in perfect health the body can get rid of the citric acid efficiently. But we are certainly not perfect and I would assume most of the people visiting the site initially aren’t in terribly ‘great’ health.

I understand sweet oranges do not contain the same amount of critic acid and have a higher pH.

I also had become a bit relaxed about oral care because of scepticism around the site about anything really to do with chemicals.

I think it’s very important to point out that what I’ve gone through today (a butt load of anaesthetic, stress, almost passing out several times from holding my breath awaiting the pain of the drill hitting a nerve). This is something I never wish to go through again. I believe there is a place for oranges and what not but I’m telling you now. I’m not touching them regularly for as long as I can remember today.

I think it’s something everyone should be aware of on the site if it isn’t clear enough (wasn’t to me, maybe that’s just me though, I know I’m gonna get that backlash).

Take care of your teeth/mouth, and be VERY careful with citrus!

If anyone is interested, “kiss your dentist goodbye” is an incredible book. Would recommend.

(Ps incase anyone is new to this, citric acid has a direct ph lowering effect in your mouth. When the ph is below 5.5, tooth decay begins. Sugar can feed bacteria which in turn make corrosive acids, however sugar directly does not cause cavities. There was a study in which they bred mice to not have a certain bacteria in their mouth and no amount of sugar caused any problems. I’d say if you’re in the initial stage of recovery. DONT DITCH YOUR PRODUCTS, because you are not perfect... harsh but seriously, I don’t wish what happened to me today on anyone.)
Did you have problems with your gums/ digestion? The reason I am asking is because I feel it the same but the problem is not tooth decay but very inflamed gums but its not like orange juice is causing it, it seems that I am chelating iron or something because I had black stool for 3 days.
 

FinnRooney

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
49
I don't think most people on this site thought to "abandon" dental care. In fact, there are quite a few threads dedicated to taking care of teeth. You also don't have to "ditch" products, but just replace them with more natural ones. For example, you don't have to brush with Crest, you can use salt and baking soda (recommended by Dentist Hal Huggins, even over most toothpastes).

I know I've spoken favorably about water piks, I think others have as well.

And yeah, it's certainly not a good idea to leave any acid on your teeth for a significant amount of time.
+1
you’re right
 

FinnRooney

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
49
Did you have problems with your gums/ digestion? The reason I am asking is because I feel it the same but the problem is not tooth decay but very inflamed gums but its not like orange juice is causing it, it seems that I am chelating iron or something because I had black stool for 3 days.
My oral health has always been a bit inadequate but the orange definitely was the cause for me. I think gums respond well to brushing carefully around the gum line (half of the brush on the gums, half on teeth) and flossing and also, listerine (original cool mint). The teeth only are host to 25% percent of the bacteria in the mouth, so if you already have problems in the mouth I’d say mouthwash is very important (at least in my case)
 

FinnRooney

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
49
@FinnRooney

Were there any warning signs, such as sensitivity or something?
Not really, that’s the problem. Only till I got my bi-annual check up did I get told my tooth was decaying. But I guess I would notice when my mouth got dry some sensitivity.
 

jzeno

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
543
@FinnRooney

I'm not convinced this has as much to do with OJ as it does with the other decisions you made. Maybe OJ was just the final nail in the coffin, to be honest, but your other areas--diet and oral hygiene--could have played a bigger role. With limited information we really don't know. My gut says it's not as simple as OJ, though.

Second, your dentist could have told you something that was just not true in order to get some money out of you. It happens. Not saying it did happen to you--this is just speculation--but that's a possibility. People put a lot of trust, sometimes too much, into their doctor's and dentist's word because they are afraid of irreversible health damage.

It's always a good idea to get a second opinion on anything that is as serious as some type of surgery or extra special, non standard procedure or treatment where they have to remove something permanently--drill out a tooth, pull out an organ, cut off a limb, etc. Doctors and Dentists make a lot of money doing special procedures so there's incentive to just stretch the truth and they may believe it's in your best interest, but it actually might not be. Depends on your dentist's integrity and their prejudice to up-to-date research.

Let's say your dentist was right and was honest, then that still doesn't mean OJ was the culprit. It could have just been the final straw so to speak.

If it were me I would be careful with big titles like that because it seems reactionary and somewhat misleading. That being said, I still appreciate that you took the time to share your experience, because it just helps us learn from others' mistakes.

Thanks for sharing and thanks for the warning
 
Last edited:

Waremu

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
532
Teeth problems usually don't occur because of orange juice or food, but because of the lack of proper oral care after every meal, often in conjunction with low thyroid and poor nutrition. This is coming from someone who has had cavities 3 times in his life. I reversed my cavities and still drink OJ and all those other so-called 'problematic' foods. A person who is low thyroid or has bad nutrition will likely have to take more care in their oral health routine, but regardless, it all goes back to poor oral care (often coupled with bad nutrition).

While it is true that many have posted about oral health in the past on this forum, it was usually due to oral problems or the result of having oral problems caused by improper oral care, not because that in of itself is evidence many or most people who follow Peat practice proper oral care.

In my experience of having been here for many years, many who followed Peat went years thinking that if they just focused on nutrition and thyroid they could neglect their teeth and as a result ended up with cavities. I have seen well over 10 people who have admitted this here and on the FB group. It is a very common problem many who are new to Peat ideas or nutrition in general make.

If anyone says you do not need to practice proper oral care because they claim they do not currently have cavities or other problems with their teeth, then do not listen to them because given enough time, they likely will have such problems down the road. Just because one doesn't have issues now doesn't mean they won't have issues due to their neglect of proper oral care tomorrow.

I wash my mouth out with water immediately after each meal and wait 20 minutes to then brush and wash. I floss when I eat anything dried or any meal or solid sticky food. I sometimes wash with baking soda as an option. But I make sure to wash and brush after each meal. Cavities have not returned since. Of course, nutrition helps too, so enough of the fat soluble Vitamins including Vitamin K and good calcium to phosphorus ratio and no starch all have helped me as well.

Dentists often give recommendations to people to stay away from certain 'problematic' foods because they usually know that most people don't brush and rinse after each meal and so they try to be accommodative of that so that their oral problems are not worsened.
 
Last edited:

FinnRooney

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
49
@FinnRooney

I'm not convinced this has as much to do with OJ as it does with the other decisions you made. Maybe OJ was just the final nail in the coffin, to be honest, but your other areas--diet and oral hygiene--could have played a bigger role. With limited information we really don't know. My gut says it's not as simple as OJ, though.

Second, your dentist could have told you something that was just not true in order to get some money out of you. It happens. Not saying it did happen to you--this is just speculation--but that's a possibility. People put a lot of trust, sometimes too much, into their doctor's and dentist's word because they are afraid of irreversible health damage.

It's always a good idea to get a second opinion on anything that is as serious as some type of surgery or extra special, non standard procedure or treatment where they have to remove something permanently--drill out a tooth, pull out an organ, cut off a limb, etc. Doctors and Dentists make a lot of money doing special procedures so there's incentive to just stretch the truth and they may believe it's in your best interest, but it actually might not be. Depends on your dentist's integrity and their prejudice to up-to-date research.

Let's say your dentist was right and was honest, then that still doesn't mean OJ was the culprit. It could have just been the final straw so to speak.

If it were me I would be careful with big titles like that because it seems reactionary and somewhat misleading. That being said, I still appreciate that you took the time to share your experience, because it just helps us learn from others' mistakes.

Thanks for sharing and thanks for the warning
Teeth problems usually don't occur because of orange juice or food, but because of the lack of proper oral care after every meal, often in conjunction with low thyroid and poor nutrition. This is coming from someone who has had cavities 3 times in his life. I reversed my cavities and still drink OJ and all those other so-called 'problematic' foods. A person who is low thyroid or has bad nutrition will likely have to take more care in their oral health routine, but regardless, it all goes back to poor oral care (often coupled with bad nutrition).

While it is true that many have posted about oral health in the past on this forum, it was usually due to oral problems or the result of having oral problems caused by improper oral care, not because that in of itself is evidence many or most people who follow Peat practice proper oral care.

In my experience of having been here for many years, many who followed Peat went years thinking that if they just focused on nutrition and thyroid they could neglect their teeth and as a result ended up with cavities. I have seen well over 10 people who have admitted this here and on the FB group. It is a very common problem many who are new to Peat ideas or nutrition in general make.

If anyone says you do not need to practice proper oral care because they claim they do not currently have cavities or other problems with their teeth, then do not listen to them because given enough time, they likely will have such problems down the road. Just because one doesn't have issues now doesn't mean they won't have issues due to their neglect of proper oral care tomorrow.

I wash my mouth out with water immediately after each meal and wait 20 minutes to then brush and wash. I floss when I eat anything dried or any meal or solid sticky food. I sometimes wash with baking soda as an option. But I make sure to wash and brush after each meal. Cavities have not returned since. Of course, nutrition helps too, so enough of the fat soluble Vitamins including Vitamin K and good calcium to phosphorus ratio and no starch all have helped me as well.

Dentists often give recommendations to people to stay away from certain 'problematic' foods because they usually know that most people don't brush and rinse after each meal and so they try to be accommodative of that so that their oral problems are not worsened.

I agree with both of you. Oral care IS a big part of it. However this line of thinking still came out of my reading of ray peats work and reading the forum. And what I'm trying to do is create awareness about it and show that one of the biggest food recommendations on the forum is potential very dangerous to tooth health if some factors aren't there (oral care, sweet oranges). Me personally, I'm switching to watermelon/juicing watermelon, I've never really been a fan of oranges (used to cry when they tried to give us to them at half time during sports when I was younger).

Oh and not that its relevant but my dentist didn't lie, it was on the biting surface so I could easily examine it myself, its a dentist I've been with for a few years (I haven't had to get fillings since I was 13 or so. She was genuinely annoyed at me that I had and gotten a cavity. Theres also another patient they had to do a few fillings on because his naturopath told him to add lemon to his water, thought it was worth mentioning.
 

Literally

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
300
Am I remembering correctly that someone once asked Ray what the simplest thing they could do to improve health and he said swish water in the mouth after eating? Or was that someone else?
 

tomisonbottom

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
907
Teeth problems usually don't occur because of orange juice or food, but because of the lack of proper oral care after every meal, often in conjunction with low thyroid and poor nutrition. This is coming from someone who has had cavities 3 times in his life. I reversed my cavities and still drink OJ and all those other so-called 'problematic' foods.

I wash my mouth out with water immediately after each meal and wait 20 minutes to then brush and wash. I floss when I eat anything dried or any meal or solid sticky food. I sometimes wash with baking soda as an option. But I make sure to wash and brush after each meal. Cavities have not returned since. Of course, nutrition helps too, so enough of the fat soluble Vitamins including Vitamin K and good calcium to phosphorus ratio and no starch all have helped me as well.

Is that what you did to reverse cavities or what exactly did you do?
 
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