Waking At 3 Each Morning

[James IV]

You are so lost, my friend. Please-- please-- do any amount of research. It's for your benefit.


Yes, it sort of does actually. It's a bit more complex, but I've already provided the basic physiology multiple times. Can you actually step up and refute it? Or will you turn a blind eye again? Let's make this constructive.



Yes, they do, and so does muscle (as a primary source even). I provided multiple studies that explain the mechanism. @James IV for whatever reason insists on saying the exact opposite but fails to apply any actual physiology. I even explained the repercussions to liberating FFA using cortisol and, again, he glosses right over it, stating the exact opposite, not providing evidence.

Feels like I'm on a paleo forum right now or something.

I dont think im going to give you an answer that will appease you. So may I ask you a question instead? You believe a person with, let's say 50lbs of belly fat, can burn that up, without any elevation in cortisol ever, and without liberating any of it in the form of FFA?

Also, may I ask what your body composition is like?

Thank you.

 

[James IV]

James...I always value your input and often agree, but today I'm confused regarding your view on cortisol...thought the goal was to lower it if concerned about weight?

Cortisol inhibits metabolism in fat tissue

I'm not trying to imply you should do things to raise cortisol. I'm saying that cortisol will elevate during sleep following circadian rhythm. And I think that's the optimal time to be mobilizing fat. That's it.
I also think sleep is vitally important for not just fat loss, but overall health. And in my experience the only people that sleep well after a high calorie, high carb dinner are people that fast, eat very low carb during the day, or barely eat during the day. For everyone else, a high carb dinner wrecks their sleep with sweats, heart palpitations, restless legs, etc.
Again, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong. Test for yourself.

 

[yerrag]

To prevent adrenaline spikes during the night both glycogen and cholesterol should be up.
Aspirin, niacinamide and coffee burn up the glycogen and if your are low maybe it's best to avoid them in the evening.
Taurine repletes glycogen fast but drops the blood sugar.
Cholesterol should not be low so that cortisol synthesis can kick in after going to bed.
PUFAs interefe with cholesterol synthesis and T3 converts it fast. If you take T3 you might be dropping it too low.
Egg yolks in the evening should give you enough to support the cortisol launch.

Why do egg yolks in the evening help with cortisol launch? Because of its fat content?

This is a great graphic.

Sleep is such a big mystery to me thus far. On one hand, I wonder why cortisol starts to rise from midnight up, and rises exponentially. It starts to taper off around 5am. And only declines around 9am.

If that is the normal behavior of our body, is it a coincidence that many people wake up around 2-3am? A Taoist book I read says that waking up around this time indicates a liver problem. If true, what would explain this phenomena?

My understanding is a good sleep allows the liver to produce glycogen. When is glycogen being produced, during the low-cortisol phase or during the high-cortisol phase? My guess is that it's during the high-cortisol phase, as during the high-cortisol phase, the glucose is being converted into glycogen, and not being used for energy. Right? Besides, during the low-cortisol phase of sleep, the body would tend to use the glucose for energy in renewing and repairing cells, as this would be more conducive for cell differentiation. In the hi-cortisol phase, stress hormones dominate and it's not conducive for regenerative processes. Right or wrong?

Waking up at 2-3 am seems to me a case of low glucose levels, in which hunger is felt due to low glycogen stores in the liver not being released and being converted to glucose. No glycogen stores? Or is there too much repair activity going on that these stores are being exhausted?

It appears that REM sleep occurs during the time when cortisol levels are rising at the highest rate. Why would this be the case?

Does it follow also that when cortisol is at its highest, estrogen would also be at its highest? My understanding that high estrogen levels would cause ACTH to increase, and with high ACTH cortisol would also increase. Is this mechanism at work as well during this time of night?

 

[tara]

A Taoist book I read says that waking up around this time indicates a liver problem. If true, what would explain this phenomena?

My understanding is a good sleep allows the liver to produce glycogen. When is glycogen being produced, during the low-cortisol phase or during the high-cortisol phase? My guess is that it's during the high-cortisol phase, as during the high-cortisol phase, the glucose is being converted into glycogen, and not being used for energy. Right?

I think it's the other way around. When cortisol is high - night-time - glycogen is released from the liver and converted back into blood glucose to sustain the body (and especially the brain) through the night fast. When cortisol is low - midday - I want to be eating carbs, both so that I have some fuel to run on, and so that my liver has some substrate to convert to glycogen for the night.
If the liver has problems, it may not be good at storing enough glycogen to last through the night, and when it runs out - 2-3am - the low blood sugar can trigger an adrenaline increase that wakes us up.

If I've misunderstood this, I hope someone will put me right.

 

[tara]

It appears that REM sleep occurs during the time when cortisol levels are rising at the highest rate. Why would this be the case?

I just saw the chart that showed physical repair in earlier part of night, and psychological repair in later part of sleep. Maybe the physical repair has to happen as a priority before the body gets to the psychological stuff, if it gets enough sleep time? That's just speculation on my part.

 

[yerrag]

I think it's the other way around. When cortisol is high - night-time - glycogen is released from the liver and converted back into blood glucose to sustain the body (and especially the brain) through the night fast. When cortisol is low - midday - I want to be eating carbs, both so that I have some fuel to run on, and so that my liver has some substrate to convert to glycogen for the night.
If the liver has problems, it may not be good at storing enough glycogen to last through the night, and when it runs out - 2-3am - the low blood sugar can trigger an adrenaline increase that wakes us up.

If I've misunderstood this, I hope someone will put me right.

My understanding of this is that cortisol causes fats to be converted to glucose for energy production, whereas adrenaline causes glycogen to be converted to glucose. I don't know if this applies during sleep, but during wake times, when blood sugar is low, adrenaline converts glycogen to glucose, and when glycogen stores are exhausted, cortisol starts converting fats to glucose. I'm also speculating, but I think during sleep, serotonin is converted to melatonin, and in so doing, increases estrogen levels. Perhaps the increased estrogen triggers the production of cortisol, and thus cortisol production of cortisol is triggered independently of blood sugar level. However, if the blood sugar level is high enough, the conversion by cortisol of fats to sugar will increase blood sugar such that it will trigger insulin to be produced, and thus cause blood sugar to be converted to glycogen by the liver. But if the blood sugar isn't high enough by the time cortisol production starts to kick in, it will trigger glucagon to be produced, to signal the liver to convert glycogen to glucose. If glycogen stores are already exhausted, blood sugar levels would reach low levels, and the stress created would disturb sleep.

The quality of sleep would also depend on how efficient the metabolism is. With efficient metabolism, sugar is used efficiently and the body will not use up too much sugar to the point of exhaustion. With a good metabolism, it goes to follow that thyroid is sufficient in the body to effect the production of enough progesterone. During the time when serotonin is converted to melatonin during sleep, and estrogen levels are increased, the presence of progesterone keeps the effects of high estrogen levels in check, and stress is kept under control.

 

[What-a-Riot]

I think often times it's not actually running out of liver glycogen that wakes people up but rather the switch over into using it. Like if you're eating frequently throughout the day and eat soon before going to bed, then you're constantly supplying your blood with glucose directly, and the bit of signalling involved in switching over to running on liver glycogen is rousing enough to bring you out of sleep.

 

[Wagner83]

Excess dietary fat-- even saturated-- will lead to insulin resistance with the repercussions mentioned previously.
Fat oxidation does not support anapleurotic reactions, those that support the intermediates of the TCA cycle; oxaloacetate is produced from the pyruvate dehydronase complex, derived from glycolysis, the initial step of the metabolism of glucose. That's where the saying "fat burns in the flame of carbohydrates" comes from. High fat feeding also moves the glutathione redox status in the direction of oxidation.

Anaplerotic reactions - Wikipedia
Mitochondrial glutathione depletion reveals a novel role for the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex as a key H2O2 emitting source under conditions of nutrient overload



Effect of insulin and oral glutathione on glutathione levels and superoxide dismutase activities in organs of rats with streptozocin-induced diabetes. - PubMed - NCBI
The effects of glutathione, insulin and oxidative stress on cultured spermatogenic cysts

Glycolysis also produces an additional molecule of CO2 that the production of acetyl-CoA from beta-oxidation can't provide. Producing additional CO2 means increasing the Bohr effect, meaning quicker respiration. Glucose is water-sparing (carbo-*hydrate*; glucose is C6H12O6, an oxygen for every two hydrogen). Glycogen stores are the primary signal to the liver whether or not to convert T4 to T3, active thyroid hormone. Glucose increases respiration.

In thinking of an advantage to fat, I really can't come up with one outside of very rare, specific instances that involve lung injury and need to avoid exhaling. Happy to hear what others have to say.

I don't think anyone needs an excess of fat and did not say so, I just said that more fat at night and more carbs earlier in the day works better for me, if one decides to limit his fat intake that can still work. It does not mean one should (or should not) indulge in vast amounts of fat right before bed. You said yourself that muscles burn fat at rest, what is the best rest besides a good night of sleep?

 

[raypeatclips]

@DuggaDugga Your issues seem to be with excessive fat in the diet, this could confuse people into thinking any fat in the diet is negative. You said you can't think of one positive of fat, is this one positive of fat as the main macro source, or you can't think of a reason why fat should be in the diet? Because there are some that spring to mind for the latter.

Your issues with what James was saying dont seem to vary from Peats advice, in this instance. Have the ratio of carbs to fat higher in the morning then more fat at night. Did you take issue when Peat was saying this? Peat is quite pro fat himself, I am not sure why people are surprised by this when he has mentioned eating a pint of ice cream a day for something like 10 years.

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

I always understood that fat must be released from a cell (lipolysis), and then transported in the blood to another cell to be oxidized by the mitochondria. I guess there is a debate here whether lipolysis and beta oxidation can occur in the same cell. I've studied this physiology for a while. Maybe I've been reading the wrong physiology books. Cortisol's job is to influence lipolysis (in the absence of insulin) with the help of hormone sensitive lipase. This knocks fat out of the cell, particularly the fat cell.

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

@yerrag, many of your statements are way off. I don't have the time to break down all your errors. You definitely need to take a fresh look at cortisol cycles and gluconeogenesis.

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

For me, what this always comes down to is your activity level, particularly exercise. If you're not active, you're not going to be insulin sensitive or have proper Glut4 responses. If you don't have those things, then cortisol is not going to work effectively for you. If insulin is hanging around and not latching onto a receptor, things go really bad. You can completely eliminate fat metabolism from the equation, and you're going to be left with blood sugar and muscle catabolism to get through the day. It all starts with keeping the thyroid happy, but you've got to keep insulin in check through exercise.

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

@DuggaDugga, don't get the paleo forum comment. So you think a low fat lifestyle is the path to health? Where does Peat state anything close to what you are advocating? If you're not on a Paleo forum, and you're definitely not advocating anything spoken on this forum, then what forum are you on? You're in no-man's land from what I'm inferring. As for your articles on FFA metabolism and its issues, do you realize there are saturated FFA's and polyunsaturated FFA's? I would prefer my FFA's to be saturated and transported through the bloodstream to where they need to go. There is absolutely no connection between saturated FFA's and insulin resistance--NONE! However, there is a clear connection between polyunsaturated FFA's and metabolic syndrome.

For me, sugar works better than starch early in the day. Saturated fat, particularly cheese, also works great later in the day. But that is me. This forum speaks to me because it works for me. Some cultures thrive on starch. That's why all this stuff, in the end, will always be anecdotal. However, there are some tried and true scientific principles. If you want to go low-fat and thus low cholesterol, and think your body can produce enough through fiber breakdown and liver output, great. But I don't think that is a very good strategy. Just because the body can do things, like gluconeogenesis, doesn't mean the body wants to do these things.

 

[DuggaDugga]

I dont think im going to give you an answer that will appease you. So may I ask you a question instead? You believe a person with, let's say 50lbs of belly fat, can burn that up, without any elevation in cortisol ever, and without liberating any of it in the form of FFA?

Also, may I ask what your body composition is like?

Thank you.

Cells at rest are still using some energy; they don't just turn off. Certain cells in the body preferentially burn fat, and will do so to survive. Cortisol-mediated liberation of fatty acids, which, by the way, also liberate amino acids from your skeletal muscle and thymus gland for gluconeogensis, is not necessary for weight loss. In fact, as elucidated in the studies previously cited, cortisol ultimately mediates deposition of fat in the abdomen which is unequivocally associtated with "metabolic syndrome". Please see my previous reference for more detail.

I'm 5'11, 170 pounds. Very lean. Don't know how to better describe it without a picture.

My position on dietary fat: I'm very much in favor of saturated fat. I cook with coconut oil and butter multiple times a day. I eat lots of cheese. I drink up to half a gallon of milk a day. I eat ice cream every day. I do, however, eat far more carbohydrates, especially with protein-heavy meals.

And finally let me apologize for being a bit terse and antagonizing in previous posts. I was finding it frustrating to provide the physiology behind my points, only to have counter-arguments be vague/indirect, unsubstantiated, and what I perceive as harmful to the community.

 

[DuggaDugga]

@DuggaDugga, don't get the paleo forum comment. So you think a low fat lifestyle is the path to health? Where does Peat state anything close to what you are advocating? If you're not on a Paleo forum, and you're definitely not advocating anything spoken on this forum, then what forum are you on? You're in no-man's land from what I'm inferring. As for your articles on FFA metabolism and its issues, do you realize there are saturated FFA's and polyunsaturated FFA's? I would prefer my FFA's to be saturated and transported through the bloodstream to where they need to go. There is absolutely no connection between saturated FFA's and insulin resistance--NONE! However, there is a clear connection between polyunsaturated FFA's and metabolic syndrome.

For me, sugar works better than starch early in the day. Saturated fat, particularly cheese, also works great later in the day. But that is me. This forum speaks to me because it works for me. Some cultures thrive on starch. That's why all this stuff, in the end, will always be anecdotal. However, there are some tried and true scientific principles. If you want to go low-fat and thus low cholesterol, and think your body can produce enough through fiber breakdown and liver output, great. But I don't think that is a very good strategy. Just because the body can do things, like gluconeogenesis, doesn't mean the body wants to do these things.

Not sure what your point is? I eat tons of carbs and upwards of 3k calories a day, including plenty of saturated fat. I'm far from paleo. Please reread my previous posts to better understand my position.

I'm all for self-experimentation. I've been doing it myself for the last year. What I have a hardtime overlooking is people making patently untrue physiological claims with virtually no context or evidence to justify their anecdotes. I don't see how that could possibly be constructive. I'll happily engage in debate on these topics to further our understanding. I don't insist on being right when I know I'm wrong; that just does me harm. I'll defend my positions and if I'm proven wrong I'll gladly adapt my perspective accordingly.

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

I apologize, I thought I read a post that you were eating low fat.

Is it your contention that lipolysis and beta oxidation are (or should be) confined to the cell? FFA's in your opinion should never enter the bloodstream? Do you have an article that states saturated FFA's lead to insulin resistance? I looked over the one article you posted, but it was talking about non-specific FFA levels.

 

[DuggaDugga]

I apologize, I thought I read a post that you were eating low fat.

Is it your contention that lipolysis and beta oxidation are (or should be) confined to the cell? FFA's in your opinion should never enter the bloodstream? Do you have an article that states saturated FFA's lead to insulin resistance? I looked over the one article you posted, but it was talking about non-specific FFA levels.

No apology necessary; I wasn't being very clear.
Not at all. I'm not sure that it's even possible (let alone desirable) to have no FFA in your blood. As I understand it, digested fat travels the lymph system to the heart which effectively gets first dibs on it before it enters the circulatory system. I think saturated fat, in context, is a wonderful thing.
Carbohydrates have many advantages over fat (saturated or otherwise) that I've stated in previous posts. I'm not sure that there's any disagreement on that in this thread. If there is, I'd love to hear the counter-argument.
I'm not aware of any studies that focused on saturated fats, specifically, and insulin resistance, but I also haven't sought them out. However I have many studies on glucocorticoids and insulin resistance, which is the primary contention in this thread. Cortisol antagonizes thyroid, testosterone, liver function, and other aspects of healthy metabolism, which is why I'm baffled it's being promoted here. If someone wants to lose weight and get lean, I'd avoid cortisol and other anti-thyroid substances like PUFA like the plague.

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

Thanks for clarifying your stance. James seems to be emphasizing the nighttime benefits of cortisol. I have no knowledge of that. My diet experience correlates well with his experience. What I do understand is how cortisol is directly linked to our circadian rhythms. I am deeply interested in the back and forth tug of war between cortisol and insulin. If too much insulin is in the picture, you can't release and burn fat stores; if too much cortisol is in the picture, your thyroid can't function. Whereas James is promoting this nighttime cortisol benefit, I do not. I promote exercise's beneficial role in insulin/glut4 response, and the subsequent release of adrenaline/cortisol to burn fat stores. Maybe we disagree on what should be eaten later in the day. I think it should be fat. However, if someone gets great sleep with late night carbs, great. The moral of the story is to get deep, restful sleep (however that happens through self-experimentation) so that you can function optimally.

 

[James IV]

All good info. Maybe I didn't explain myself very clearly, but I didn't mean to come across as promoting cortisol. I was simply stating that elevation of cortisol is inevitable if you observe the circadian rythm of hormones. And I'm not sure trying to stifle that is necessarily a good thing. I think eating a large portion of carbohydrate at night, before sleep, may disrupt this cycle, and lead to poor sleep. So maybe pushing carbohydrates earlier in the day, with a bit more of fat being eaten in the evening, may be benificial if you are having sleep problems. I don't claim this is true across the board, but I've seen it very often.

I'm not promoting a low carb diet. I think sufficient carbs are very important. However, I also don't believe everyone needs to be in a high carb diet. You can read some of the stories of folks that destroyed themselves on a low fat high carb diet in the other thread going right now.

I hope that's more clear.

To @DuggaDugga. You are obviously an intelligent fellow. Out of curiosity, what are your views on starches vs sugars? This is the only point I still go back and forth on, and more input is always appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[raypeatclips]

All good info. Maybe I didn't explain myself very clearly, but I didn't mean to come across as promoting cortisol. I was simply stating that elevation of cortisol is inevitable if you observe the circadian rythm of hormones. And I'm not sure trying to stifle that is necessarily a good thing. I think eating a large portion of carbohydrate at night, before sleep, may disrupt this cycle, and lead to poor sleep. So maybe pushing carbohydrates earlier in the day, with a bit more of fat being eaten in the evening, may be benificial if you are having sleep problems. I don't claim this is true across the board, but I've seen it very often.

I'm not promoting a low carb diet. I think sufficient carbs are very important. However, I also don't believe everyone needs to be in a high carb diet. You can read some of the stories of folks that destroyed themselves on a low fat high carb diet in the other thread going right now.

I hope that's more clear.

To @DuggaDugga. You are obviously an intelligent fellow. Out of curiosity, what are your views on starches vs sugars? This is the only point I still go back and forth on, and more input is always appreciated.

Thank you.

What issues do you wrestle with in regards to starch vs sugar? I've not been convinced by any of the anti-starch arguments.