VoS Uncoupling Thread

Peata

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Uncouplers didn't seem to work for me until I worked on liver health first. In fact, most of the things discussed on the forum including proper diet didn't work until then. Or I could be looking at it a little from the wrong angle, but that's just my :2cents
 

NathanK

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I trialed it earlier this year. I got my temps well into the 90s for a few days, but stopped because I didn't feel quite stable. I think I lost a few pounds too. I didn't continue because I wanted to work on other things (and still am). Will revisit probably again next year.
 

DaveFoster

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Peata said:
post 108946 Uncouplers didn't seem to work for me until I worked on liver health first. In fact, most of the things discussed on the forum including proper diet didn't work until then. Or I could be looking at it a little from the wrong angle, but that's just my :2cents
Very true. Same. Caffeine helps with this, and making sure liver glycogen is adequate (with niacinamide).
superhuman said:
That is awesome.
Have you done any other changes in terms of activity level and stuff that may have made changes as well?
What about pulse and temp change? have you checked that?

What is your current procotol you are using in terms of freqyency and dosages?
Esp in terms of caffeine and aspirin and how do you take them etc

Thanx and awesome :D
I consistently workout every day for about 45 minutes; heavy weight training without going to failure. My workout week looks like ABABABA, and then BABABAB, where "A" is upper body day and "B" is lower body day.

You can read about my protocol in my log here.

I used to check my temperature and pulse, but now I just focus on my mental state. I'm aiming for 8000 calories per day.

Get caffeine powder and put it IN your coffee, or under your tongue. Start at 200 mg per day, then add 50 mg per day until you get to about 1200-1600 mg. Drink this over the course of the day.

As for aspirin, take 1/4 tsp aspirin powder (1000-1400 mg), and mix it with 1 tsp baking soda in hot water. Stir, let sit for 1 minute, and drink. This is sodium salicylate, which is far less acidic than acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin). Do this twice daily.
 
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DaveFoster

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EIRE24

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DaveFoster said:
post 108963
Peata said:
post 108946 Uncouplers didn't seem to work for me until I worked on liver health first. In fact, most of the things discussed on the forum including proper diet didn't work until then. Or I could be looking at it a little from the wrong angle, but that's just my :2cents
Very true. Same. Caffeine helps with this, and making sure liver glycogen is adequate (with niacinamide).
superhuman said:
That is awesome.
Have you done any other changes in terms of activity level and stuff that may have made changes as well?
What about pulse and temp change? have you checked that?

What is your current procotol you are using in terms of freqyency and dosages?
Esp in terms of caffeine and aspirin and how do you take them etc

Thanx and awesome :D
I consistently workout every day for about 45 minutes; heavy weight training without going to failure. My workout week looks like ABABABA, and then BABABAB, where "A" is upper body day and "B" is lower body day.

You can read about my protocol in my log here.

I used to check my temperature and pulse, but now I just focus on my mental state. I'm aiming for 8000 calories per day.

Get caffeine powder and put it IN your coffee, or under your tongue. Start at 200 mg per day, then add 50 mg per day until you get to about 1200-1600 mg. Drink this over the course of the day.

As for aspirin, take 1/4 tsp aspirin powder (1000-1400 mg), and mix it with 1 tsp baking soda in hot water. Stir, let sit for 1 minute, and drink. This is sodium salicylate, which is far less acidic than acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin). Do this twice daily.


8000 calories? Holy ***t! I would love to see what a day of eating consists of for you? Did you always eat this much and have a high metabolism to deal with all those calories?

I was wondering if you or VOS would have any recommendation for getting rid of acne? I've tried the usual vitamin A and zinc supplementation but it isn't helping. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
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DaveFoster

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EIRE24 said:
8000 calories? Holy s***! I would love to see what a day of eating consists of for you? Did you always eat this much and have a high metabolism to deal with all those calories?
I used to eat about 1800 calories per day with zero carbohydrates, most in the form of raw liver, raw heart, raw kidney, egg yolks, and occasional vegetables grilled in coconut oil, along with a pork chop or two.

I then worked my way up to about 2500, now I get about 4000-6000 in per day. I'm aiming for 8000 when I start natural dessicated thyroid supplementation.

Here's a snapshot of a typical day.

Screen_Shot_2015_11_12_at_12_57_22_AM.png


EIRE24 said:
I was wondering if you or VOS would have any recommendation for getting rid of acne? I've tried the usual vitamin A and zinc supplementation but it isn't helping. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Keeping my metabolic rate up has helped with my acne. Liver health is also important for detoxing estrogen. Aspirin for metabolic rate; caffeine for improving liver health; carrot salad for shuttling estrogen out of the intestine; fat soluble vitamins and a nutrient rich diet for energy repletion. Also, sleep is important.
 

superhuman

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DaveFoster said:
post 109112
EIRE24 said:
8000 calories? Holy s***! I would love to see what a day of eating consists of for you? Did you always eat this much and have a high metabolism to deal with all those calories?
I used to eat about 1800 calories per day with zero carbohydrates, most in the form of raw liver, raw heart, raw kidney, egg yolks, and occasional vegetables grilled in coconut oil, along with a pork chop or two.

I then worked my way up to about 2500, now I get about 4000-6000 in per day. I'm aiming for 8000 when I start natural dessicated thyroid supplementation.

Here's a snapshot of a typical day.

Screen_Shot_2015_11_12_at_12_57_22_AM.png


EIRE24 said:
I was wondering if you or VOS would have any recommendation for getting rid of acne? I've tried the usual vitamin A and zinc supplementation but it isn't helping. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Keeping my metabolic rate up has helped with my acne. Liver health is also important for detoxing estrogen. Aspirin for metabolic rate; caffeine for improving liver health; carrot salad for shuttling estrogen out of the intestine; fat soluble vitamins and a nutrient rich diet for energy repletion. Also, sleep is important.

Very nice. And you remain weiht eating this much? or i should say remain the same bodyfat? what is your stats in terms of height, weight, bodyfat?
 
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DaveFoster

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superhuman said:
Very nice. And you remain weiht eating this much? or i should say remain the same bodyfat? what is your stats in terms of height, weight, bodyfat?
My body fat fluctuates between 15 and 20% depending on estrogen and water retention. Height, 5'10"; weight, 190 lbs. I hope to get down to 10-12% over the next 6 months.
 

NathanK

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That rocks Dave. Nice work. I hope to get there with my progress next year. I rarely use thyroid if I can. I remember the days of 2k cal low carb paleo diet with a 220lb frame of mostly muscle and impossible visceral fat. I remember thinking, how is it possible for me to have fat on this low a calorie diet? I'm still working on it actually.

Btw, I think many people will need to go slower than adding 50mg a day caffeine depending on their liver health. I know when I first tried the stress response would build over so many days. I would then swear off caffeine altogether and a few times considered throwing my supply away altogether.

Eire, IIR, a lot of posts in here were deleted after VoS was banned in January. Ironically, this thread about a year ago is what drew me to this forum in the first place.
 

EIRE24

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superhuman said:
post 109118
DaveFoster said:
post 109112
EIRE24 said:
8000 calories? Holy s***! I would love to see what a day of eating consists of for you? Did you always eat this much and have a high metabolism to deal with all those calories?
I used to eat about 1800 calories per day with zero carbohydrates, most in the form of raw liver, raw heart, raw kidney, egg yolks, and occasional vegetables grilled in coconut oil, along with a pork chop or two.

I then worked my way up to about 2500, now I get about 4000-6000 in per day. I'm aiming for 8000 when I start natural dessicated thyroid supplementation.

Here's a snapshot of a typical day.

Screen_Shot_2015_11_12_at_12_57_22_AM.png


EIRE24 said:
I was wondering if you or VOS would have any recommendation for getting rid of acne? I've tried the usual vitamin A and zinc supplementation but it isn't helping. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Keeping my metabolic rate up has helped with my acne. Liver health is also important for detoxing estrogen. Aspirin for metabolic rate; caffeine for improving liver health; carrot salad for shuttling estrogen out of the intestine; fat soluble vitamins and a nutrient rich diet for energy repletion. Also, sleep is important.

Very nice. And you remain weiht eating this much? or i should say remain the same bodyfat? what is your stats in terms of height, weight, bodyfat?


Ya I have just come off a very low calorie diet, although I did eat carbs the calories were way too low to sustain any decent metabolic rate or health. Its weird that I have acne with such a low metabolic rate, but maybe it is a sign that my body has put skin health well down the pecking order of prorities at this point. Did you work up the calories slowly and how much weight did you gain when you increased the calories? I am a small bit worried to increase calories and include some foods like dairy and eggs which seem to cause problems the most for people with acne. I am going to purchase haiduts estroban and try and get some of the very important fat soluble vitamins in.
 
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Nighteyes

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Amazoniac said:
post 109122 But isn't the disposal of excess energy in the form of heat undesirable, at least if the person is not concerned with losing body fat?

Yeah, I have a hard time understanding that as well.. Incidentally I just noticed this quote at the top of the page.. Does anyone know why Ray mentions mitochondrial damage in connection with uncoupling - or is he referring to a different type of uncoupling?

Ray Peat wrote:
“Unsaturated oil tends to lower the blood sugar in at least three basic ways. It damages mitochondria, causing respiration to be uncoupled from energy production, meaning that fuel is burned without useful effect."
 
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Amazoniac

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Nighteyes said:
post 109127
Amazoniac said:
post 109122 But isn't the disposal of excess energy in the form of heat undesirable, at least if the person is not concerned with losing body fat?

Yeah, I have a hard time understanding that as well.. Incidentally I just noticed this quote at the top of the page.. Does anyone know why Ray mentions mitochondrial damage in connection with uncoupling - or is he referring to a different type of uncoupling?

Ray Peat wrote:
“Unsaturated oil tends to lower the blood sugar in at least three basic ways. It damages mitochondria, causing respiration to be uncoupled from energy production, meaning that fuel is burned without useful effect."
Thank you for the quote because fuel being burned without useful effect was exactly what I meant..
 
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This is an old topic.

Since then I've come to realise that pounding calories isn't the answer, you'll only get fatter; there's nothing impressive about eating 5-8000 calories a day and being over 15% body fat.

Clear the liver, lower estrogen, cortisol etc and doing this doesn't require an excess of calories.
 

brandonk

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Amazoniac said:
Nighteyes said:
post 109127
Amazoniac said:
post 109122 But isn't the disposal of excess energy in the form of heat undesirable, at least if the person is not concerned with losing body fat?

Yeah, I have a hard time understanding that as well.. Incidentally I just noticed this quote at the top of the page.. Does anyone know why Ray mentions mitochondrial damage in connection with uncoupling - or is he referring to a different type of uncoupling?

Ray Peat wrote:
“Unsaturated oil tends to lower the blood sugar in at least three basic ways. It damages mitochondria, causing respiration to be uncoupled from energy production, meaning that fuel is burned without useful effect."
Thank you for the quote because fuel being burned without useful effect was exactly what I meant..
Here's the full quote, where Ray Peat is referring to the benefit of medium chain saturated fatty acids (which can be found in coconut oil or fractionated coconut oil):

The ability of some of the medium chain saturated fatty acids to inhibit the liver's formation of fat very likely synergizes with the pro-thyroid effect, in allowing energy to be used, rather than stored. When fat isn't formed from carbohydrate, the sugar is available for use, or for storage as glycogen. Therefore, shifting from unsaturated fats in foods to coconut oil involves several anti-stress processes, reducing our need for the adrenal hormones. Decreased blood sugar is a basic signal for the release of adrenal hormones. Unsaturated oil tends to lower the blood sugar in at least three basic ways. It damages mitochondria, causing respiration to be uncoupled from energy production, meaning that fuel is burned without useful effect. It suppresses the activity of the respiratory enzyme (directly, and through its anti-thyroid actions), decreasing the respiratory production of energy. And it tends to direct carbohydrate into fat production, making both stress and obesity more probable. For those of us who use coconut oil consistently, one of the most noticeable changes is the ability to go for several hours without eating, and to feel hungry without having symptoms of hypoglycemia.

Although Ray Peat may have been the first to identify, in passages such as this, how ketones and medium chain chain saturated fatty acids work, and their unparalleled benefit in boosting metabolism and reducing stress, he hasn't been given sufficient credit for his own seminal ideas. Instead he's been unfairly labelled an advocate for a low-fat, high-carb diet.

It would be more accurate to say that Ray Peat advocates a relatively high-fat ketone-rich diet, provided that the source of fat is highly or completely saturated.
 
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brandonk

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Amazoniac said:
post 109122 This is an interesting thread!
But isn't the disposal of excess energy in the form of heat undesirable, at least if the person is not concerned with losing body fat?
Mild uncoupling is beneficial, but excessive uncoupling is harmful. These excerpts are from "Fatigue, Aging, and Recuperation" (Nov. 2006 Newsletter)

GLOSSARY:
* Uncoupling--In cellular respiration, oxidation of "fuel" in the mitochondrion is coupled to the phosphorylation of ADP, forming ATP. Uncouplers are chemicals that allow oxidation to proceed without producing the usual amount of ATP.
* DNP--Dinitrophenol, an uncoupler that was once popular as a weight-loss drug.

...
Aspirin and niacin help to prevent fatigue symptoms, and to prevent many of the harmful systemic oxidative after-effects. (Both are antilipolytic; aspirin uncouples mitochondria.)

Uncoupling of mitochondrial oxidative metabolism from ATP production helps to consume the sugar which otherwise would be diverted into lactic acid, and converts it into carbon dioxide instead. Mild hypoxia, as at high altitude, suppresses lactic acid production ("the lactate paradox"), and increases the amount of carbon dioxide in tissues.

Aspirin and thyroid (T3) increase uncoupling. A drug that used to be used for weight reduction, DNP, also uncouples mitochondrial metabolism, and, surprisingly, it has some of the beneficial effects of thyroid and aspirin. It stimulates the consumption of lactic acid and the formation of carbon dioxide.

The squirrel monkey, which on average weighs about 2 or 3 pounds as an adult, lives much longer than other mammals of its size, usually about 20 years, as long as 27. It has an extremely high rate of oxygen consumption. This is probably the result of natural uncoupling of the mitochondria, similar to that seen in long-lived mice. Mice with 17% higher resting oxygen consumption lived 36% longer than slow respiring mice of a related strain (Speakman, et al., 2004).

Living at a high altitude, people tend to eat more and stay leaner than when they live near sea level. Apparently, their mitochondria are relatively uncoupled, and they have more mitochondria, which would partly account for their lower production of lactic acid during muscular exertion. Increased thyroid activity, too, tends to increase mitochondrial mass, as well as their uncoupling.
 
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Parsifal

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Peata said:
Uncouplers didn't seem to work for me until I worked on liver health first. In fact, most of the things discussed on the forum including proper diet didn't work until then. Or I could be looking at it a little from the wrong angle, but that's just my :2cents
How did you healed your liver?
 

Peata

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Parsifal said:
post 109383
Peata said:
Uncouplers didn't seem to work for me until I worked on liver health first. In fact, most of the things discussed on the forum including proper diet didn't work until then. Or I could be looking at it a little from the wrong angle, but that's just my :2cents
How did you healed your liver?

I don't know for sure if it's healed or healing since I have not had another U/S on it, but since using higher amounts of caffeine, I've been able to tolerate a high sugar, moderate protein, low fat diet over the last 2+ weeks and see results with some weight loss and less bloat, feeling satisfied without blood sugar swings, discomfort, and less hunger. My hormones seem more balanced going by the way I feel and look. Before caffeine, I had a bad time eating low fat, high sugar.
 
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