Vitamin K2

[mamaherrera]

I'm glad to hear that Vitamin K2 is non-toxic but I hear a lot of controversy over Mk4 and MK7 and now people are criticizing the thorne brand, because it is synthetic. Just wondering what you all think?? And does it need to be taken with lots of fat, like I mean lots, or just with a normal quantity of fat?

 

[answersfound]

I take jarrows mk7 and it works really well.

 

[johns74]

Thorne K2 is created by fermentation. That is not synthetic. Thorne K2 already comes with fat. You don't need to take any fat with it.

MK4 has more safety studies at high doses than MK7.

 

[mamaherrera]

wow I have heard that yes, MK7 you have to be careful with doses, but that with MK4 it leaves the body faster. And how do you know how much do take?? I Heard some scary stories of people taking it and having vision problems and such. What does Peat say?

 

[yoshiesque]

Thorne K2 is created by fermentation. That is not synthetic. Thorne K2 already comes with fat. You don't need to take any fat with it.

MK4 has more safety studies at high doses than MK7.

WRONG.

Thorn Vitamin K2 MK4 IS synthetic. Apparently all MK4 might be synthetic

I just emailed them, and they told me so themselves.

Here is a good link though that discusses Vitamin K:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/12/vitamin-k2-benefits.aspx

 

[johns74]

WRONG. Thorn K2 IS synthetic.

I just emailed them, and they told me so themselves.

I see. I saw the claim I mentioned here.

Thorne's vitamin K2 is MK-4 and is derived from bacterial fermentation

 

[mamaherrera]

so it's no good>??? Just ok?? Not needed?? What's recommended?

 

[johns74]

so it's no good>??? Just ok?? Not needed?? What's recommended?

In my opinion it's safer and better than any other vitamin K product.

 

[haidut]

I'm glad to hear that Vitamin K2 is non-toxic but I hear a lot of controversy over Mk4 and MK7 and now people are criticizing the thorne brand, because it is synthetic. Just wondering what you all think?? And does it need to be taken with lots of fat, like I mean lots, or just with a normal quantity of fat?

One human study showed highest plasma concentrations when K2 (MK-4) was consumed with 35g of fat. Higher or lower quantities did not improve absorption. Since Thorne's comes in fat, if you rub it on the skin you should be OK. Taken orally, it may need additional fat to get optimal absorption but I don't know of any other studies backing this up. I have noticed from personal blood test that blood levels of K shoot up by about 50% if I increase my fat intake from 30g to 50g a day and keep vitamin K2 intake the same. But the blood tests I am using measure total K (K1 + K2 + K?...) so I am not sure how reliable they are or what this means for tissue levels or bone metabolism.

 

[yoshiesque]

Guys after seeing this post i did some research and am now ever confused. I was about to order 6x Thorn Vit K2 MK4 but now I do not know. Here is my brief findings:

- MK-4 is hard to get and it does NOT come from Natto. It seems that whatever the natural sources are, it comes in very small forms and its almost impossible to get unless you supplement. Synthetic seems to be the only supplement form available. Studies have shown in higher doses this has benefits. Also, it has a very short half life, around one hour. So taking a few drops may do nothing at all. Its very likely that its only effective in high doses (45 drops).
- MK-7 has also shown great results and has a much higher half life, a whole day or more. This is easier to get naturally, and thats why supplementation is not synthetic.
- Studies have shown benefits from both but its still hard to say whether they are the same. I am now moving towards supplementing with both, by purchasing the product below. Please read the description on iherb as the company has explained why they have all K variants in there.

http://au.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex-90-Softgels/46675

One thing I do NOT want to do: Supplement with the expensive Thorne Vitamin K MK-4 drops, when it may not be doing ANYTHING at the shorter doses (ie 1-10drops). If I was to take it in the doses where its been shown to be effective via studies, thats like 15-45 drops and it will be a costly thing to do in the long run.

Dr Mercola has posted a good article on it. Not that im a fan of his work, but I dont like to rule his information as ALL bad.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/12/vitamin-k2-benefits.aspx

I think its too soon to know whether the synthetic MK-4 is bad or not.

 

[mamaherrera]

and research the experiences of \others who have eye problems and bad side effects from taking K2. And I wanted was a wrinkle remover.

 

[yoshiesque]

and research the experiences of \others who have eye problems and bad side effects from taking K2. And I wanted was a wrinkle remover.

Eye problems? Bad side effects? I didnt know about this....could you paste some links?

I think the problem might be that everyone looks at the non-existing side effects of K2, without deciding whether its MK-7 or MK-4.

 

[haidut]

Guys after seeing this post i did some research and am now ever confused. I was about to order 6x Thorn Vit K2 MK4 but now I do not know. Here is my brief findings:

- MK-4 is hard to get and it does NOT come from Natto. It seems that whatever the natural sources are, it comes in very small forms and its almost impossible to get unless you supplement. Synthetic seems to be the only supplement form available. Studies have shown in higher doses this has benefits. Also, it has a very short half life, around one hour. So taking a few drops may do nothing at all. Its very likely that its only effective in high doses (45 drops).
- MK-7 has also shown great results and has a much higher half life, a whole day or more. This is easier to get naturally, and thats why supplementation is not synthetic.
- Studies have shown benefits from both but its still hard to say whether they are the same. I am now moving towards supplementing with both, by purchasing the product below. Please read the description on iherb as the company has explained why they have all K variants in there.

http://au.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex-90-Softgels/46675

One thing I do NOT want to do: Supplement with the expensive Thorne Vitamin K MK-4 drops, when it may not be doing ANYTHING at the shorter doses (ie 1-10drops). If I was to take it in the doses where its been shown to be effective via studies, thats like 15-45 drops and it will be a costly thing to do in the long run.

Dr Mercola has posted a good article on it. Not that im a fan of his work, but I dont like to rule his information as ALL bad.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/12/vitamin-k2-benefits.aspx

I think its too soon to know whether the synthetic MK-4 is bad or not.

This topic must have come up at least 10 times on this forum. The search box is your friend.
So, for the 11th time - MK-4 is the only one with solid human trials showing benefits for a variety of conditions including cancer (hepatic and prostate so far). Again, this is HUMAN data, for specific and often dire conditions.
MK-7 is unproven at best and a marketing scam of cheese industry in Netherlands at worst. You will notice that most of the MK-7 research comes from there. The half life means nothing. Aspirin has a half life of only 15min but has benefits for virtually any condition out there. When metabolized into salicylic acid however it has a half life of over 30 hours. Nobody knows what MK-4 metabolizes exactly into and how long those metabolites stay in the body. The indisputable fact is that it has been proven helpful in a variety of HUMAN conditions. MK-4 is a licensed drug in Japan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand, etc. It has undergone multiple clinical trials and is deemed "effective" as per the FDA standards. MK-7 has some rat data and some human data showing long half life and that's it.
MK-4 is also the form the body uses for bone building. MK-4 is industrially produced from tobacco or made synthetically. I do not see people complaining that pregnenolone is produced synthetically. In fact, it is considered of the highest grade and much better than the one from yam.
Vitamin K1 is mostly for coagulation, and vitamin K3 is toxic so it is used as cancer killing chemotherapy. I supposed nobody thought that K2 (MK-4) may do the same without the toxicity...
Anyways, there is way too much information to discuss in a single post. However, if you do thorough (looking at ALL the studies on PubMed) research you will come to a similar conclusion.

 

[johns74]

Guys after seeing this post i did some research and am now ever confused. I was about to order 6x Thorn Vit K2 MK4 but now I do not know.

Why in the world would you order 6? 1 thorne bottle at 4 mg per day lasts 10 months.

The 45 mg doses are for very sick people, often with osteoporosis.

 

[lexis]

Vitamin k2 works well Biotin.

 

[mamaherrera]

I will look for the site that had those experiences and post it here soon

 

[Amazoniac]

https://www.intechopen.com/books/vitamin-k2-vital-for-health-and-wellbeing

 

[Luann]

So, my K2 arrived and I just took 200 mcg with coffee and chocolate syrup.

Is that enough to do any good?

I'm taking it for tooth pain, are there effects I should look for with the K2? I've only taken K before, and it made me feel better in a mental sense, like stronger and more steady. I know K 1 & 2 help the body use calcium so I guess there would be anti stress effects? Will there be hormone effects?

Other things I should know?

 

[Mito]

Will there be hormone effects?

Other things I should know?

The Health Benefits of Vitamin K2
Vitamin K2 has a wide range of underappreciated health benefits:

• It prevents calcium from going into all the wrong places and makes sure it gets into all the right places. For example, it keeps it out of your kidneys, where it would cause kidney stones, and keeps it out of your blood vessels, where it would cause heart disease, but helps it to get into your bones and teeth, making your bones strong and your teeth resistant to cavities.
• It helps you make insulin and remain very sensitive to insulin. This means it helps stabilize your blood sugar, protects against diabetes, and prevents the metabolic problems that often arise as a consequence of obesity.
• It promotes sexual health by helping you optimize your sex hormones. For example, it increases testosterone and fertility in males, and it helps bring the high levels of male hormones found in women with polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) back down to normal.
• It helps improve exercise performance by enhancing your ability to utilize energy during bouts of physical activity.
• It protects against cancer by suppressing the genes that make cells cancerous and expressing the genes that make cells healthy.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

 

[Amazoniac]

Differential lipoprotein transport pathways of K-vitamins in healthy subjects

"Although all K-vitamins are fat-soluble, their lipophilic character increases substantially at increasing chain length; this may have consequences for their uptake, plasma transport, tissue storage, and biological lalf-hife time [3]."

"Unlike the fat-soluble vitamins A and D, vitamin K has no specific plasma carrier protein, but is transported in plasma mainly by lipoproteins [9,12]. Following dietary uptake, vitamin K is absorbed in the intestine and enters the circulation via the lymphatic system as part of the chylomicrons [9]. In the circulation chylomicrons are catabolized by the action of lipoprotein lipase (LPL) resulting in chylomicron remnants [14], which are then cleared mainly by the liver via an apoE receptor-specific uptake [15,16]."

"In previous studies in which we compared the absorption of orally ingested K1 and menaquinones, it was found that both in experimental animals and in human volunteers the absorption of two menaquinones (MK-4 and MK-7, respectively) was far more complete than that of K1 [3,17]. In these studies MK-7 was taken as a representative of the long-chain menaquinones."

"[..]the different pharmacokinetic behaviour of the three vitamers is related to their different hydrophobicity: whereas the most water-soluble MK-4 may be packed relatively loosely, the highly lipo-soluble MK-9 may be present in the core of the lipoprotein particles, with an intermediate position for K1."

"the major transport of vitamin K in plasma takes place via the TGRLP [triacylglycerol-rich lipoproteid] fraction [9]"

"MK-4 is mainly associated with the outer side of the lipoprotein particle, where it is available for substitution"

"In previous animal experiments MK-4 was absorbed substantially better than phylloquinone, when given in the same form [17]. Furthermore, the MK-4 present in the TGRLP fraction is rapidly cleared by the liver which than governs the MK-4 tissue distribution via its incorporation into lipoprotein particles. Such a mechanism was shown to be the case for vitamin E which has a specific binding protein in the liver cytoplasm. This protein preferentially binds Dio-tocopherol and incorporates this homologue into nascent VLDL, leading to a completely different lipoprotein profile for ki-tocopherol and y-tocopherol which differ only in a single methyl group. The minor structural difference results in a mainly extrahepatic distribution of ne-tocopherol, whereas y-tocopherol disappears rapidly from plasma by hepatic absorption, and is thought to be excreted via the bile [22]."

"the liver is the most important target tissue for vitamin K1, whereas relatively higher fractions of MK-4 accumulate in other tissues. But also in the latter case a dominant role for the liver cannot be excluded: it could be, for instance, that the liver is equally the initial target tissue for MK-4 but that its metabolism then differs from K1, including the possibility of a more rapid elimination of MK-4. This is consistent with previous data from our group demonstrating that K1 was '2-5'-fold more efficient than MK-4 in counteracting vitamin K-deficiency induced hypoprothrombinaemia in rats [26], and that at equal intakes of K1 and MK-4 the former mainly accumulates in the liver, whereas MK-4 is preferentially absorbed by extra-hepatic tissues such as testis, pancreas, and kidney [10]. Also, the preferential utilization of K1 in the liver and MK-4 in the vessel wall supports the hypothesis of tissue specific uptake of K-vitamins [27]. However, one cannot exclude the capacity of some tissues to synthesize MK-4 from K1 [28,29]. Especially those tissues which accumulated preferentially MK-4 above K1, turned out to be capable of synthesizing their own MK-4 by conversion of K1 [11]."

"long-term intake of menaquinones (notably the long-chain ones) is inversely correlated with arterial calcification, whereas for K1 intake the effect was much weaker [31]."