Vitamin K2 Spares A?

[j.]

I've often wondered how could it be possible that some people seem to need very extreme doses of vitamin A to not get skin symptoms. Dr. Peat mentioned that when he worked in the sun he used 100,000 IU daily, a very hard amount to get from nature.

Now I'm conjecturing that a nutritional deficiency might increase the demands of vitamin A. On the Weston Price website I read the claim that Vitamin A spares Vitamin K. Could it also happen the other way around?

 

[j.]

I wondered about this because after supplementing vitamins E and K2 together for the last three days, today is the first day I can recall in a while of not having skin symptoms, which I get whenever I don't supplement vitamin A. So maybe taking vitamin K2 drastically diminished my need for vitamin A. If K2 is not doing this alone, maybe the combination of K and E is doing it.

For an even more anecdotal note, when I take vitamin K I feel like I want to take vitamin E, which I take topically, but feel very reluctant to supplement vitamin A, and have some discomfort if I do.

 

[j.]

I was also reading that vitamin A and B6 increase testosterone. K2 also does that, so maybe these 3 vitamins have similar functions. Since A and B6 help with some types of dandruff problems, maybe so does K2.

 

[Milklove]

My answer is going to be anecdotal as well, but I experienced very similar things to those you described.
About ten days ago I started to incorporate Red Light Therapy in my life and had some great effects, but I got a few nasty pimples. I had read somewhere on this forum that someone used mega-doses Vitamin K and was curious to try this. I figured since it is a anti-imflamatory agent, it might help with acne.
Anyhow, two days later all the pimples were healed up. I was really impressed.

 

[j.]

Did you use a German vitamin K product?

 

[Milklove]

I looked at some German sources, but all I found had some weird additives. So I used the Life Extension Vitamin K complex.

Do you consider Vitamin K2 to be more potent or useful than K1?

 

[j.]

I have only used pure MK4 (K2) products. Thorne and Advanced Orthomolecular Research brands.

I hasten to add that I combine it with vitamin E, in the form of mixed tocopherols, I seem to be able to take more K2 that way.

 

[Milklove]

I tried a very strong kale broth once, but it gave me a headache and brain fog. I don't know whether it was due to the Vitamin K1 or the fact that I took it without vitamin E.

I always take my vitamin k supplement together with vitamin E, so maybe this is the reason why I have such great effects from it (not only flawless skin, but also improved mood and increased temperature).

 

[j.]

What's your vitamin E brand? I haven't settled on one, would like to try Thorne at some point.

 

[charlie]

I looked at some German sources, but all I found had some weird additives. So I used the Life Extension Vitamin K complex.

I hear a lot of good reports about Life Extension Vitamin K complex.

 

[Milklove]

I experienced some pretty decent effects from a vitamin E product that I bought at a local drugstore, but since it only contains alpha-tocopherols I switched to LotionCrafter.

In my opinion, vitamin E is a really helpful tool if your body is loaden with PUFAs. I am going to experiment with higher doses in the near future as Haidut mentioned it's properties as a aromatase-inhibitor.

But, many people just overlook the powerful effects of vitamin K. I was surprised that I even found evidence of its ability to increase testosterone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21914161
This study describes vitamin Ks ability to enhance testosterone production (without effecting LH-levels), but this only applies to MK-4, a version of K2, but not to K1.

Testosterone levels in the plasma and testes of MK-4-fed rats were significantly increased compared to those of control rats, with no obvious differences in plasma luteinizing hormone levels. Secreted testosterone levels from I-10 cells were elevated by MK-4, but not by vitamin K₁, in a dose-dependent manner independent of cAMP treatment

MK-4 stimulates testosterone production in rats and testis-derived tumor cells via activation of PKA. MK-4 may be involved in steroidogenesis in the testis, and its supplementation could reverse the downregulation of testosterone production in elders.

P.S.: I have no idea how to quote anything. I think it is time that I take a look at Charlies Quote-Video

 

[j.]

After 2 years of PUFA avoidance, vitamin E is still very beneficial to me.

 

[Milklove]

Do you think that after about 4 years of PUFA avoidance a small dose of vitamin E would still be beneficial?

 

[j.]

I'm not a scientist, but I doubt PUFA damage control is all vitamin E does. How can it make sense for vitamin E to increase vitamin K requirements, if we assume all vitamin E actions are related to PUFA? How does PUFA fit in there?

When we ingest vitamin E, it goes in higher quantities to the adrenal glands than to any other organ. If we didn't have PUFA, would vitamin E have no function in the adrenals?

If we didn't have PUFA, would vitamin E stop helping the liver to store vitamin A? Isn't vitamin A unsaturated? Does vitamin E protect from the processing of vitamin A just as it does from oxidation of PUFAs? If so, we would benefit from vitamin E as long as we consume vitamin A, i.e., as long as we live.

I guess another possibility is that vitamin E is required to control even very extremely small amounts of PUFAs. I have barely consumed vegetable oils the last 2 years, but I do consume eggs, and all fats have at least 2% PUFA, typically. Maybe just this amount makes vitamin E beneficial?

Another possibility is that 2 years really is not enough to get rid of all significant PUFA stored.

Anyway, the conclusion for me is that I'll keep supplementing with vitamins E and K until I stop noticing benefits.

 

[jyb]

About ten days ago I started to incorporate Red Light Therapy in my life and had some great effects, but I got a few nasty pimples.

I can relate to that. Even more interesting is if I use a laser (650 nm) focussed on one area. Sometimes I get a pimple there the next day. This suggests an increased need to vit A. Or something to do with steroid synthesis, as RP wrote that light increases their production on the skin.

 

[Milklove]

I'm not a scientist, but I doubt PUFA damage control is all vitamin E does. How can it make sense for vitamin E to increase vitamin K requirements, if we assume all vitamin E actions are related to PUFA? How does PUFA fit in there?

When we ingest vitamin E, it goes in higher quantities to the adrenal glands than to any other organ. If we didn't have PUFA, would vitamin E have no function in the adrenals?

If we didn't have PUFA, would vitamin E stop helping the liver to store vitamin A? Isn't vitamin A unsaturated? Does vitamin E protect from the processing of vitamin A just as it does from oxidation of PUFAs? If so, we would benefit from vitamin E as long as we consume vitamin A, i.e., as long as we live.

I guess another possibility is that vitamin E is required to control even very extremely small amounts of PUFAs. I have barely consumed vegetable oils the last 2 years, but I do consume eggs, and all fats have at least 2% PUFA, typically. Maybe just this amount makes vitamin E beneficial?

Another possibility is that 2 years really is not enough to get rid of all significant PUFA stored.

Anyway, the conclusion for me is that I'll keep supplementing with vitamins E and K until I stop noticing benefits.

I really liked your answer. You would make a better scientist than most that actually are a scientist. I believe, that you always have to consider all possibilities until you can definitely disprove them.

I had this statement from Ray Peat in mind, when I asked you:
Since the requirement for vitamin E decreases as the consumption of unsaturated fats decreases, the requirement, if any, would be very small if we didn't eat significant quantities of those fats.

My understanding was that vitamin E improves the metabolism by blocking the bad effects of the PUFAs and thereby increases the requirement for vitamin K. A well-oiled metabolism provides a lot of regenerative energy, which is helpful, but also greatly increase the need for all nutrients.

And yes, I think that vitamin E protects from the processing of vitamin A just as it does from oxidation of PUFAs, so I agree that a small (maybe a very small) amount would be beneficial as long as we live.

 

[Milklove]

About ten days ago I started to incorporate Red Light Therapy in my life and had some great effects, but I got a few nasty pimples.

I can relate to that. Even more interesting is if I use a laser (650 nm) focussed on one area. Sometimes I get a pimple there the next day. This suggests an increased need to vit A. Or something to do with steroid synthesis, as RP wrote that light increases their production on the skin.

You are right. Light increases the steroid production of the skin, which increases the need for vitamin A. If the body does not have enough vitamin A, the absence of enough vitamin A triggers the release of lysosomal enzymes and as a result tissue catabolism.
Tissue catabolism leads to an increased synthesis of inflammatory substances, which promotes bacterial growth (and pimples).

 

[j.]

My understanding was that vitamin E improves the metabolism by blocking the bad effects of the PUFAs and thereby increases the requirement for vitamin K. A well-oiled metabolism provides a lot of regenerative energy, which is helpful, but also greatly increase the need for all nutrients.

And vitamin K probably increases E requirements due to its hormonal effects. K increases testosterone, and estrogen blocks the release of thyroid hormone from the gland. So if K results in more thyroid in the blood, that would create waste from oxidation of PUFAs for E to clean up.

 

[Milklove]

My understanding was that vitamin E improves the metabolism by blocking the bad effects of the PUFAs and thereby increases the requirement for vitamin K. A well-oiled metabolism provides a lot of regenerative energy, which is helpful, but also greatly increase the need for all nutrients.

And vitamin K probably increases E requirements due to its hormonal effects. K increases testosterone, and estrogen blocks the release of thyroid hormone from the gland. So if K results in more thyroid in the blood, that would create waste from oxidation of PUFAs for E to clean up.

Good Point!

 

[mamaherrera]

Two questions:
What is a good ratio of Vitamin E to K,when taking together/? any opinions?? Also, I too, would like some brand recommendations of Vitamin E, with name and even link would be helpful.
Finally, for someone like me who has high androgens (I'm a woman) and I don't want the effects of high androgens (hairs on chin, etc. ) should I avoid vitamin E, K and A, and zinc, then so that I don't have higher levels of testosterone??? That's what they based my diagnosis of PCOS ON, was because I had high free testosterone and very high androgens, and I want to lower them. If I elevate testosterone, isn't that going against what I want???? That's where I get confused because I was told from a doc that I'm low on zinc, and I read that zinc also raises testosterone.