Vitamin K2- Mk-4 Vs Mk-7, Did Any Work For You?

[pboy]

our body requires very small amounts of vitamin K, it converts nearly all of it to K2 as needed, and not just in the liver, in many tissues including blood vessels. This is why the K2 obsession is kinda worthless, and I consistently poke fun at it. Anything that has to do with bacterial fermentation though, seems to really spark peoples fancy and have them really fully buy into and salivate over

 

[Amazoniac]

The benefits of fermented cod liver oil seem to far outweigh the downsides, especially considering the small amount that they recommend daily.
If I could tolerate it I'd at least reconsider..

 

[mujuro]

Thorne MK4 drops made my teeth super white after only about 6 weeks. Also made my jaw ache for weeks on end and I believe this was it widening my jaw. My dental occlusion feels a little more rearward, and my bite feels stronger, which makes sense given the rearward bite.

The stronger bite really stood out for me.

 

[dd99]

The benefits of fermented cod liver oil seem to far outweigh the downsides, especially considering the small amount that they recommend daily.
If I could tolerate it I'd at least reconsider..

Amazoniac, what makes you say that? My wife took it (and butter oil) in her last pregnancy and everything went well. She hasn't taken it this time around because of the fermentation and PUFA issues, so I'm curious to understand why you think it's not that bad. (I also have like four bottles left over!)

 

[Amazoniac]

No doubt that you can get the fat-soluble vitamins that you are lacking isolated and without the downsides of fermented clo. But I don't think that most people will balance them properly. Taking 45mg of mk4 a day is an example. Perhaps for someone who has been severely deficient it might help temporarily, but I don't think it's safe for the long term. Someone can correct me here but I think that fat-soluble vitamins tend to be more difficult to dispose went ingested in excess and unbalanced, unlike water soluble.
So, my opinion is that unless you are pretty sure of what you are doing and aren't experiencing any discomfort, stick with larger doses. Other than that, reduce to reasonable doses or take the fermented clo with antioxidants, but I wouldn't consume it everyday, weekly maybe just to make sure you are getting enough.
It's just my opinion and how I'd do it..

 

[EnoreeG]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96501/ Thorne MK4 drops made my teeth super white after only about 6 weeks. Also made my jaw ache for weeks on end and I believe this was it widening my jaw. My dental occlusion feels a little more rearward, and my bite feels stronger, which makes sense given the rearward bite.

The stronger bite really stood out for me.

This is really interesting, mujuro! I've read that overload of vitamin D can cause jaw ache, but not K. But it's entirely possible. The fat soluble vitamins/hormones are in concert to aid health. I've read that low vitamin A in youth is responsible for the narrow jaw structure that leaves insufficient room for wisdom teeth, so getting proper diet later in life may allow for some jaw expansion.

Originally, they only gave credit to calcium for formation of a healthy bone structure. Then they gave some credit to vitamin A. Lately, they consider A, D, E and K as important as well, and claim jaws can become healthier and even wider from proper nutrition with these vitamins and sufficient minerals:

https://www.ondietandhealth.com/vitamin-k2-teeth-cheekbones/

As it says, "K determines where the calcium gets deposited", I think it may explain your jaw adjustments, plus the removal of plaque that I noted, and mentioned earlier in the thread. Quite marvelous, really.

Thanks for mentioning this.

One other off-topic thing I'll mention on jaw problems. I'd had TMJ jaw dislocation problems quite regularly for the last 3 years, and then I just realized that this has nearly disappeared in the last few months. I attribute this though, not to vitamin supplements, but to starting to use bone-broth for the glycine. It's helped with all kinds of connective tissue ails, like arthritis in knees and lower back, sciatica, and some shoulder rotation limitation.

 

[dd99]

Thanks, Amazoniac. But after seeing the thread about Green Pasture's cod liver oil and butter oil, I think I'll throw out the left over bottles!

 

[Amazoniac]

Now imagine taking 4500mcg of isolated mk4 a day..
Yeah, I saw the thread, and it's definitely a concern, the downside I was reffering to..

 

[Lucas]

Mujuro:
How much drops of Thorne K2 you take per day to see the teeth benefits?
Sine Thorne K2 dose is 15 drops, and 30 ml is 80 doses, if I take 1 drop each day it is 1200 days of k2 for 60 dollars The dentist don’t want that his patients know this

 

[Fletcher]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96755/ Mujuro:
How much drops of Thorne K2 you take per day to see the teeth benefits?

I take 10 drops per day of Thorne K2 and 10k i.u. of D3. Within 2 weeks the plaque began disappearing from my teeth and I was no longer sensitive to hot or cold food or drinks. Before that I took 1mg per day of K2 and noticed no differences at all.

 

[montmorency]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97853/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96755/ Mujuro:
How much drops of Thorne K2 you take per day to see the teeth benefits?

I take 10 drops per day of Thorne K2 and 10k i.u. of D3. Within 2 weeks the plaque began disappearing from my teeth and I was no longer sensitive to hot or cold food or drinks. Before that I took 1mg per day of K2 and noticed no differences at all.

Do you know how much is in one drop?
Thanks.

 

[montmorency]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96696/ Now imagine taking 4500mcg of isolated mk4 a day..
Yeah, I saw the thread, and it's definitely a concern, the downside I was reffering to..

Could you possibly point to the thread, or briefly summarise the problem?
Thanks in advance.

Edit: oops, sorry, I now see you were referring to the thread mentioned in the previous post.

 

[Fletcher]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98041/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97853/
I take 10 drops per day of Thorne K2 and 10k i.u. of D3. Within 2 weeks the plaque began disappearing from my teeth and I was no longer sensitive to hot or cold food or drinks. Before that I took 1mg per day of K2 and noticed no differences at all.

Do you know how much is in one drop?
Thanks.

Thorne's vitamin K2 has 1 mg of vitamin K2 per drop, so 10mg per day in total.

 

[Giraffe]

Quantitative measurement of vitamin K2 (menaquinones) in various fermented dairy products using a reliable high-performance liquid chromatography m... - PubMed - NCBI

They assumed that the bioavailability of vitamin K2 is related to the length of the side-chain, with MK-7 being more bioavailable than MK-4. So unfortunately they did not measure MK-4. They did however measure MK-6 to MK-10.

The total amount of vitamin K2 showed a wide range of values among the fermented dairy products under study, from undetectable vitamin K2 values (for TFM1) to values up to 1,100 ng/g of product (for SoftC3), as illustrated in Figure 2. The daily intake of cheese is estimated at around 30 g, which could thus provide up to 33 μg of vitamin K2 or 44% of the daily dose recommended for adults by the European Food Safety Authority.

Among the cheeses were they could not detect any vitamin K2 (in the forms MK-6 to MK-10) were Emmenthaler and Comté.

Similarities in cheese process explain this absence of vitamin K2. For these types of products, usually only thermophilic species (Streptococcus thermophilus, Lactobacillus delbrueckii, Bifidobacterium) are used as lactic acid bacteria starter (Fox et al., 2000), and those thermophilic species are not known to be vitamin K2 producers (Collins and Jones, 1981; Morishita et al., 1999). This is also the case for a yogurt-type product also made with pure thermophilic species (Hirauchi et al., 1989; Koivu-Tikkanen et al., 2000).

The contents of vitamin K2 for semihard cheeses were homogeneous, with vitamin K2 concentrations never less than 100 ng/g. This is in agreement with previous studies; for example, approximately 400 ng/g of vitamin K2 has been reported for an Edam-type cheese (Koivu-Tikkanen et al., 2000).

I also looked up one of the references mentioned above.

Determination of phylloquinone and menaquinones in animal products with fluorescence detection after postcolumn reduction with metallic zinc. - PubMed - NCBI

Table 2. Mean of K vitamins (μg/100 g or μg/100 ml) in various foods

The food with the highest amount of MK-4 was goose liver paste with 369 μg per 100 g.

 

[Logan-]

I'd be careful about supplementing large doses of mk4 without balancing with the other fat-solubles. The way mk4 is found in natural producs is always balanced, and I could never find any source that reaches 500mcg/100g, not that taking beyond that implies that it's going to be toxic, but it's something to keep in mind. Mk7 on the other hand seems safer to consume in larger doses, not over 1mg. But I guess that it comes down to have them balanced, and if you megadose in one, increase all of them proportionally to antagonize.

45mg/d as Thorne suggests seems insanity!

I posted somewhere in the forum about the quinone content of fermented cod liver oil, and it's a lot, I just don't know how much of those quinones are mk4.

Do you still have the same opinion?

 

[Amazoniac]

Do you still have the same opinion?

They isn't toxic (contrary to poison A at any given dose):
- Safety and toxicological evaluation of a synthetic vitamin K2, menaquinone-7

I still think that people are overdoing it, but I would favor mk-4 now because it's metabolized faster, so imbalances are faster to correct. Even though it has those hormone-like effects that might be detrimental when you take massive amounts, in humanoid experiments it has been used in doses up to 135 mg without producing a dead.

I would give special attention to antidote E when supplementing K. And Constatine believes that you have to be mindful about calcium intake.

 

[Logan-]

And Constatine believes that you have to be mindful about calcium intake.

Could you elaborate?

 

[Amazoniac]

Could you elaborate?

- Vitamin K2

 

[Logan-]

- Vitamin K2

Thank you.