Vitamin K2 (MK-4) May Be A Treatment For Rheumatoid Arthritis

[haidut]

The study found very positive effects on rheumatoid arthritis (RA) using MK-4 but not K1. The dosage were on the high end, and the human equivalents would be 1.5mg/kg and 7mg/kg for the two groups. The beneficial effects on RA were highly dose-dependent. This is yet another study that hints the therapeutic value of vitamin K2 for degenerative conditions may be much higher at doses higher than 45mg daily, which is what Peat has been recommending. As I mentioned in another post, I suspect he is recommending 45mg b/c that's what most of the published human studies used. However, the original Japanese studies from the 1990s state that the dosage was in fact 1mg/kg and they ended up using a fixed dose of 45mg b/c most of their patients (elderly people with bone problems) had weights in that range (45kg-55kg).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/iub.41/pdf

 

[Parsifal]

post 66178 The study found very positive effects on rheumatoid arthritis (RA) using MK-4 but not K1. The dosage were on the high end, and the human equivalents would be 1.5mg/kg and 7mg/kg for the two groups. The beneficial effects on RA were highly dose-dependent. This is yet another study that hints the therapeutic value of vitamin K2 for degenerative conditions may be much higher at doses higher than 45mg daily, which is what Peat has been recommending. As I mentioned in another post, I suspect he is recommending 45mg b/c that's what most of the published human studies used. However, the original Japanese studies from the 1990s state that the dosage was in fact 1mg/kg and they ended up using a fixed dose of 45mg b/c most of their patients (elderly people with bone problems) had weights in that range (45kg-55kg).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/iub.41/pdf

Wow interesting. And does it cure the illness or just alleviate symptoms?
Do you know any good supplements that give high doses? Haven't found any.

 

[haidut]

post 101295

post 66178 The study found very positive effects on rheumatoid arthritis (RA) using MK-4 but not K1. The dosage were on the high end, and the human equivalents would be 1.5mg/kg and 7mg/kg for the two groups. The beneficial effects on RA were highly dose-dependent. This is yet another study that hints the therapeutic value of vitamin K2 for degenerative conditions may be much higher at doses higher than 45mg daily, which is what Peat has been recommending. As I mentioned in another post, I suspect he is recommending 45mg b/c that's what most of the published human studies used. However, the original Japanese studies from the 1990s state that the dosage was in fact 1mg/kg and they ended up using a fixed dose of 45mg b/c most of their patients (elderly people with bone problems) had weights in that range (45kg-55kg).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/iub.41/pdf

Wow interesting. And does it cure the illness or just alleviate symptoms?
Do you know any good supplements that give high doses? Haven't found any.

Well, there is nod definition of a cure for rheumatoid arthritis. However, the study did find out a strong reduction in inflammatory biomarkers and a drop in the "arthritis score", which I guess is a formula to assess severity of condition.
There are quire a few products with K2 on the market. The one most commonly recommended is Thorne K2 drops.

 

[sweetpeat]

I would like to share my story about vitamin K.

DISCLAIMER: I've not been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis; just displaying symptoms.

Over the summer, I lowered my thyroid dose and I think I let it drop too low. In August and September I started noticing some autoimmune type skin symptoms. Then two weeks ago, I woke up with painful, hot joints in the knuckles of my hands where the index finger attaches. It was in both hands. After googling about arthritis, I learned that rheumatoid arthritis is usually symmetrical, which is what I was experiencing. Needless to say, this scared me quite a bit. Especially since I'm a drummer and need my hands. Well, everyone does of course, but … you know what I mean.

Anyway, naturally I came to the Ray Peat forum to do a search on rheumatoid arthritis and found this thread. I happened to have a bottle of Thorne K2. I applied a drop to each knuckle and rubbed it in, not really expecting anything but thought I'd give it a shot. I kid you not, in about 10-15 min the pain had noticeably lessened. It wasn't completely gone, just not as intense. It was still difficult to do anything that required small motor skills. I wrote a check that day to pay for something and could barely do it. I kept applying the K drops several times a day, and each day brought less pain and more mobility. I was able to play drums three days later with a minimum of discomfort.

I ordered the Kuinone from Idealabs because I thought it would be easier to apply topically than the Thorne (which is oily). For about the last eight days I've been following a regimen of 10 drops topical Kuinone, 1 drop Oxidal (for the methylene blue), and at least 200mg of oral pregnenolone daily. I got the ideas from this thread: https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/rheumatoid-arthritis-is-a-metabolic-disease-vitamin-k-and-niacinamide-may-treat-it.10348/

By day 7 with the Kuinone, I started developing a bit of a rash on my hands, I assume from the DMSO. So I've been applying it to other areas. The thread linked above said the treatment with high dose K was for 9 days, which today would be the ninth day. Tomorrow, I'm going to try the Thorne topically again. I'm still experiencing some vague achiness in my hands at times, though mostly I don't even think about them. I'm curious to see if the Thorne brand will help bring more healing when applied locally.

I'm also going to continue with the preg for at least a month since that's what was done in the study. And I know from blood and saliva labs that I'm deficient in most hormones. I really let things slide over the summer and am paying for it now. Time to get back on track.

Thanks again to haidut for posting studies like these. I would never otherwise have known to try something so simple.

 

[haidut]

I would like to share my story about vitamin K.

DISCLAIMER: I've not been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis; just displaying symptoms.

Over the summer, I lowered my thyroid dose and I think I let it drop too low. In August and September I started noticing some autoimmune type skin symptoms. Then two weeks ago, I woke up with painful, hot joints in the knuckles of my hands where the index finger attaches. It was in both hands. After googling about arthritis, I learned that rheumatoid arthritis is usually symmetrical, which is what I was experiencing. Needless to say, this scared me quite a bit. Especially since I'm a drummer and need my hands. Well, everyone does of course, but … you know what I mean.

Anyway, naturally I came to the Ray Peat forum to do a search on rheumatoid arthritis and found this thread. I happened to have a bottle of Thorne K2. I applied a drop to each knuckle and rubbed it in, not really expecting anything but thought I'd give it a shot. I kid you not, in about 10-15 min the pain had noticeably lessened. It wasn't completely gone, just not as intense. It was still difficult to do anything that required small motor skills. I wrote a check that day to pay for something and could barely do it. I kept applying the K drops several times a day, and each day brought less pain and more mobility. I was able to play drums three days later with a minimum of discomfort.

I ordered the Kuinone from Idealabs because I thought it would be easier to apply topically than the Thorne (which is oily). For about the last eight days I've been following a regimen of 10 drops topical Kuinone, 1 drop Oxidal (for the methylene blue), and at least 200mg of oral pregnenolone daily. I got the ideas from this thread: https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/rheumatoid-arthritis-is-a-metabolic-disease-vitamin-k-and-niacinamide-may-treat-it.10348/

By day 7 with the Kuinone, I started developing a bit of a rash on my hands, I assume from the DMSO. So I've been applying it to other areas. The thread linked above said the treatment with high dose K was for 9 days, which today would be the ninth day. Tomorrow, I'm going to try the Thorne topically again. I'm still experiencing some vague achiness in my hands at times, though mostly I don't even think about them. I'm curious to see if the Thorne brand will help bring more healing when applied locally.

I'm also going to continue with the preg for at least a month since that's what was done in the study. And I know from blood and saliva labs that I'm deficient in most hormones. I really let things slide over the summer and am paying for it now. Time to get back on track.

Thanks again to haidut for posting studies like these. I would never otherwise have known to try something so simple.

Thanks for sharing! I would also try some oral niacinamide. If it is indeed RA, 500mg x 3 daily should help even in more - alone or in combination with the MK-4.

 

[DaveFoster]

Very interesting; I'd suspect that K2 would be helpful for fibromyalgia as well, and other autoimmune conditions, as it's given me significant relief.

 

[sweetpeat]

Thanks for sharing! I would also try some oral niacinamide. If it is indeed RA, 500mg x 3 daily should help even in more - alone or in combination with the MK-4.

I think I have some niacinamide around here that I can experiment with. I was hesitant to add it to the mix due to reports of negative side effects. Is this something I should build up to or just jump in at full dose? Any idea what the duration should be for high dose? Also, do you see any problems with continuing the Kuinone at 10 drops, or do you think it's done all it can do in 9 days?

 

[sweetpeat]

Very interesting; I'd suspect that K2 would be helpful for fibromyalgia as well, and other autoimmune conditions, as it's given me significant relief.

I'm glad the K2 has helped you also. If you don't mind me asking, what dose do you take? And for how long? What symptoms are helped with the K? My sister has fibro and maybe this is something that would help her too.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm glad the K2 has helped you also. If you don't mind me asking, what dose do you take? And for how long? What symptoms are helped with the K? My sister has fibro and maybe this is something that would help her too.

I take 3-6 mg topical most days, which is 9 - 30 mg oral equivalent.

Caffeine has helped more probably more.

 

[sweetpeat]

Thanks for sharing! I would also try some oral niacinamide. If it is indeed RA, 500mg x 3 daily should help even in more - alone or in combination with the MK-4.

I think I have some niacinamide around here that I can experiment with. I was hesitant to add it to the mix due to reports of negative side effects. Is this something I should build up to or just jump in at full dose? Any idea what the duration should be for high dose? Also, do you see any problems with continuing the Kuinone at 10 drops, or do you think it's done all it can do in 9 days?

Nevermind. The oral niacinamide sedates me, even at small doses. I did manage to take the daily 200mg pregnenolone for a month, but started feeling...I dunno... “off” toward the end. Kind of flat or something. I was glad to give it up and go back to physiological doses. I think what all this is telling me is that my metabolism is still too low (no big surprise). When my cortisol is knocked down, the thyroid still isn't high enough to compensate. It's been stated elsewhere on the forum that conditions like Rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, etc. are metabolic problems, and I believe that's true. It always comes back to metabolism, doesn't it?

I haven't had any more painful flare ups. So that's good. Just some mild tissue swelling. I'm glad I know what to do in case of another acute situation.