Vitamin K2 From Natto

Wilfrid

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Few months ago, I asked RP what kind of supp would be good for people with IBD and he told me to take higher amount of vitamin K ( The brand he recommended me was Life Extension and Carlson).
So I started to take the LEF brand but I always had difficulty digesting it as I got few burps after ingesting it (either taken with fatty meals or either on empty stomach) so I switched to Carlson and got GI problem (mainly bloating) from it....
Then I bought the thorne research liquid K2 and applied it on skin (like RP told me, as to avoid any potential irritations of the intestines.) but it seemed to give me some sleep problems.
I finally decided to try the vitamin K2 ( MK-7) derived from natto and I felt really much better on it.
No GI pb, no sleep pb and even a slight tooth sensibility has gone since I started taking this supp.
Has anyone here also try this natto derived K2?
I bought the K2 from Jarrow (it does have some not friendly additives such as evening primrose and soybean oil but yet I can digest it way more easier....)
 
J

j.

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Interesting. I think yours if the first experience I hear of someone doing better on MK7 than MK4.
 

jyb

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I'm still looking for an explanation as to why supplementing K2 can disrupt sleep for some.
 

Edward

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jyb said:
I'm still looking for an explanation as to why supplementing K2 can disrupt sleep for some.

Speculating here. I think that K2 might increase the availability of retinol. If it does it might actually be the retinol that is disrupting your sleep and not directly the K2.

It is also possible with vitamin D and K2. I've noticed that K2 alone with no Vitamin D supplementation didn't disrupt my sleep, but when I would take a D/K2 combination from Thorne my sleep cycle was disrupted. D alone didn't have that effect.
 

jyb

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Edward said:
jyb said:
I'm still looking for an explanation as to why supplementing K2 can disrupt sleep for some.

Speculating here. I think that K2 might increase the availability of retinol. If it does it might actually be the retinol that is disrupting your sleep and not directly the K2.

It is also possible with vitamin D and K2. I've noticed that K2 alone with no Vitamin D supplementation didn't disrupt my sleep, but when I would take a D/K2 combination from Thorne my sleep cycle was disrupted. D alone didn't have that effect.

So, it would be the problem of retinol excess (oxidation and disruption of thyroid)?

My sleep disruption seemed to coincide with the K2 only from thorne. A single drop does has quite a large of amount of K2. On a several occasions over the winder, I would take quite a few drops (5-20) per day, and observe surprising improvements in skin appearance even when sleep was poor. It is only after reading some anecdotes on this forum that I realized that the K2 itself might have been linked to the poor sleep.
 

BaconBits

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I am using Twinlab D3&K2 that has 90 micrograms of MK-7 and I can tell you this stuff is like a drug, extremely potent.
It stops teeth sensitivity, no more back pain after sitting 6 hours, no more joint problems while running, no more knee pain, no mre teeth problems is probably the most noticable thing.

Its a must have supplement. Even after I eat like 1 pound of K1 rich vegetables and do not get any of this benefits. on the contrary, spinach kills your teeth.
 

Wilfrid

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ksemen said:
I am using Twinlab D3&K2 that has 90 micrograms of MK-7 and I can tell you this stuff is like a drug, extremely potent.
It stops teeth sensitivity, no more back pain after sitting 6 hours, no more joint problems while running, no more knee pain, no mre teeth problems is probably the most noticable thing.

Its a must have supplement. Even after I eat like 1 pound of K1 rich vegetables and do not get any of this benefits. on the contrary, spinach kills your teeth.

Same here, like I said above, for teeth sensitivity....gone in two days after taking it (one per day with a break during the week end).
Never got the same result with the LEF brand (which contains also MK-7). :?:
 
J

j.

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Wilfrid said:
Never got the same result with the LEF brand (which contains also MK-7). :?:

If I recall correctly, it has 100 mcg of MK7.
 

Edward

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jyb said:
So, it would be the problem of retinol excess (oxidation and disruption of thyroid)?

My sleep disruption seemed to coincide with the K2 only from thorne. A single drop does has quite a large of amount of K2. On a several occasions over the winder, I would take quite a few drops (5-20) per day, and observe surprising improvements in skin appearance even when sleep was poor. It is only after reading some anecdotes on this forum that I realized that the K2 itself might have been linked to the poor sleep.

That is one possibility. I'm curious as to how your sleep was disrupted, were you waking up in the middle of the night or were you sleeping through the night but getting less overall sleep?

It very well could be the Thorne.

There also are some variations with cytochrome p450 CYP1A1 and CYP1A2 that can change how you react to different forms of vitamin K. Both are involved with estrogen metabolism.

It is possible that if CYP1A1 and A2 could interfere with estrogen metabolism if they are upregulated. And this could interfere with sleep.

Rat hepatic CYP1A1 and CYP1A2 induction by menadione
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15603920

The effects of menadione on activities and expression of cytochrome P450 (CYP) 1A subfamily (CYP1A) isozymes in rat hepatic tissue were examined. When rats were treated orally with 15 mg/kg menadione for 4 days, the elevation of hepatic CYP1A1/1A2 specific activities in microsomal preparations was detected with approximately 5.4- and 2.5-fold increase over control values for ethoxyresorufin-O-deethylase (EROD, CYP1A1) and methoxyresorufin-O-demethylase (MROD, CYP1A2) activities, respectively. CYP1A1 and CYP1A2 mRNA levels in the liver of menadione-treated rats were approximately 11.8- and 1.8-fold higher than in controls, respectively, whereas the expression of the CYP1A regulatory proteins aryl hydrocarbon-receptor (AhR) and AhR nuclear translocator (Arnt) was not changed at the mRNA level. The result of this study demonstrates that menadione induces CYP1A1/1A2 expression in vivo through either transcriptional activation and/or mRNA stabilization.

Biosynthesis Of All-trans-Retinoic Acid from All-trans-Retinol: Catalysis of All-trans-Retinol Oxidation by Human P-450 Cytochromes
http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/28/3/315.short

Oxidative conversion of all-trans-retinol (t-ROH) to all-trans-retinal (t-RAL) is recognized as the rate-limiting step for biosynthesis of all-trans-retinoic acid fromt-ROH in mammalian hepatic tissues. The purpose of this study was to investigate the role of human cytochrome P-450 (CYP)-dependent monooxygenation in the conversion oft-ROH to t-RAL. Adult human liver microsomes (HLMS) were incubated with t-ROH, and retinoids generated were identified and quantified by liquid chromatography-mass spectroscopy, HPLC, and other methods. HLMS-catalyzed generation of t-RAL fromt-ROH was primarily NADPH-dependent and was strongly inhibited by carbon monoxide. Rates of reactions increased linearly with time and concentrations of HLMS, and exhibited classical substrate saturation. These observations strongly indicated that the reaction proceeded via CYP-catalyzed monooxygenation. On the basis of responses to selective chemical inhibitors, isoforms from CYP family 1 and the CYP3A subfamily appeared to be very active. Members of the CYP2C subfamily and CYP2D6 exhibited lesser activities and CYP2A6, CYP2B6, and CYP2E1 were virtually inactive. cDNA-expressed human CYP enzymes (CYP SUPERSOMES) also were used to assess the capacity of individual CYP enzymes to catalyze the reaction. Based on responses to selective chemical inhibitors, specific activities, and levels present in adult human hepatic tissues, CYP1A2 and CYP3A4 strongly appeared to be the major CYP enzymes catalyzing hepatic oxidative conversion oft-ROH to t-RAL in the adult human liver. CYP1A1 and CYP1B1 SUPERSOMES both exhibited exceptionally high activities, and in extrahepatic tissues, these isoforms could play important roles in biosynthesis of all-trans-retinoic acid from t-ROH.

Cytochrome P450-mediated metabolism of estrogens and its regulation in human
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 350400802X

Estrogens are eliminated from the body by metabolic conversion to estrogenically inactive metabolites that are excreted in the urine and/or feces. The first step in the metabolism of estrogens is the hydroxylation catalyzed by cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes. Since most CYP isoforms are abundantly expressed in liver, the metabolism of estrogens mainly occurs in the liver. A major metabolite of estradiol, 2-hydroxyestradiol, is mainly catalyzed by CYP1A2 and CYP3A4 in liver, and by CYP1A1 in extrahepatic tissues. However, CYP1B1 which is highly expressed in estrogen target tissues including mammary, ovary, and uterus, specifically catalyzes the 4-hydroxylation of estradiol. Since 4-hydroxyestradiol generates free radicals from the reductive-oxidative cycling with the corresponding semiquinone and quinone forms, which cause cellular damage, the specific and local formation of 4-hydroxyestradiol is important for breast and endometrial carcinogenesis. Changes in the expression level of estrogen-metabolizing CYP isoforms not only alter the intensity of the action of estrogen but may also alter the profile of its physiological effect in liver and target tissues. Generally, many CYP isoforms are induced by the substrates themselves, resulting in enhanced metabolism and elimination from the body. Of particular interest is a novel finding that human CYP1B1 is regulated by estradiol via the estrogen receptor. This fact suggests that the regulation of CYP enzymes involved in estrogen metabolism by estrogen itself would be physiologically significant for the homeostasis of estrogens at local organs. In this mini-review, we discuss the CYP-mediated metabolism of estrogens and the regulation of the estrogen-metabolizing CYP enzymes in relation to the risk of cancer.

Inhibitory Effects of Vitamin A and Vitamin K on Rat Cytochrome P4501A1-Dependent Monooxygenase Activity
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1X99912408

The inhibitory effects of vitamins A and K toward P4501A1-dependent 7-ethoxycoumarin O-deethylation were examined in the reconstituted system containing the microsomal fraction prepared from the recombinant Saccharomyces cerevisiae cells producing rat P4501A1 and yeast NADPH-P450 reductase. On vitamins A, all-trans-retinol, all-trans-retinal, all-trans-retinoic acid and retinol-palmitate showed competitive inhibition with Ki values of 0.068, 0.079, 2.6 and 2.0 μM, respectively. Judging from the Ki values, the inhibitory effects of those vitamins A appear to have physiological significance on the basis of their contents in liver, lung and kidney. On vitamins K, vitamin K1 showed competitive inhibition with Ki value of 24 μM, while vitamin K2 showed noncompetitive inhibition with Ki value of 60 μM. Judging from these Ki values together with the contents of these vitamins K in liver, the inhibitory effects of the vitamins K are not as significant as those of vitamins A. These results suggest that the ingestion of enough amounts of vitamins A from foods might lead to the inhibition of the activity of P4501A1 which is known to be induced by smoking, drugs such as omeprazole and lansoprazole, and environmental pollutants like dioxins.
 
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j.

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I don't think the healthy economist's argument for MK7 is good.
 

FunkOdyssey

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I always found it interesting that the LEF Advanced K Complex, which includes 1mg K1, 1mg MK-4, and 100mcg originally but now 200mcg MK-7, is cheaper than competing products that contain only 90mcg MK-7 (like Jarrow).

I guess now we know why.
 

Wilfrid

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j. said:
I don't think the healthy economist's argument for MK7 is good.

Hi j,

I'm totally agree with you.
But what I can't still understand is why I can fully digest the one from Jarrow (w/o any side effects) and have problems with the synthetic forms of K2 (MK-4 and/or MK-7).
I'm not usually on the "all natural" band wagon but ,still, I have to admit that the K2 from Jarrow made a huge difference from me. I have two friends who have IBD and so far they also feel good on the jarrow.
Since yesterday, I'm gonna take it only twice a week now as I don't feel the need to continue on the dosage I used to take before.
 

Wilfrid

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Edward,

Do you think that may be the lower dosage of the k2 from Jarrow could be the cause for the absence of side effects?
Or what?
 

BaconBits

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Hmm. I found Life Extension to be excellent, even better then the rest because of the high K1. But to me it costs 30 euro to ship it from ebay for 90 caps. Twinlabs is 7.99 euros for 60 dots that I can disolve in mouth. Another problem vith Life Extensions is that you cannot break the capsules with your teeth and taste it.It has some black pepper extract and once I did that my tongue was on fire. It burned all my mouth.

What is really bothering me what is up with MK-8 and MK-9. Are they any good. Because cheese has this two forms and I am wondering about their usefulness. Are they better than MK-7 or not? Also Weston Price says cheese is a good source, but USDA tested foods and the few cheeses it tested were low in K2.

Also the USDA chart on K2 content list that meat has a lot of K2 (20 to 30 micrograms per 100g), probably MK-4,I eat a lot of it, but in January i stopped MK-7 supplement and by february my teeth got a little sensitive. I used supplement again and it stopped.

USDA chart: " http://foodinfo.us/SourcesUnabridged.aspx?Nutr_No=428 "
 

jyb

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Edward said:
That is one possibility. I'm curious as to how your sleep was disrupted, were you waking up in the middle of the night or were you sleeping through the night but getting less overall sleep?

Proper disruption (very delayed sleep onset, if it can be called sleep - but I'm prone to insomnia so I'm a bit biased). I note that even in for K&D2 thorne, the amount of K2 in a single drop is significant compared to one gets in liver food. It's a shame because the effect on skin was appreciable. I actually suspect it was also responsible for hair and hairs growth in new areas, though it could be pure coincidence.
 

jyb

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Wilfrid said:
I finally decided to try the vitamin K2 ( MK-7) derived from natto and I felt really much better on it.
No GI pb, no sleep pb and even a slight tooth sensibility has gone since I started taking this supp.
Has anyone here also try this natto derived K2?

Wilfrid, I'm with you on that one - do much better with MK7.

Negative effects of MK4 (LEF, thorne) are usually pretty quick. I read that MK7 stays in the serum much longer and can be seen as a storage form, converting to MK4 for a slow use by the tissues. Some health blogs have interpreted this as MK4 being better, quicker usage of the vitamin meaning it is superior. There seems to be a higher number of studies on MK4 benefits, but several trials showing benefits MK7 do exist too.

Do you think the negative effects of MK4 could be due to it acting too fast? I haven't done well with vit E, so I wonder if its related.
 

answersfound

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Wilfrid said:
Few months ago, I asked RP what kind of supp would be good for people with IBD and he told me to take higher amount of vitamin K ( The brand he recommended me was Life Extension and Carlson).
So I started to take the LEF brand but I always had difficulty digesting it as I got few burps after ingesting it (either taken with fatty meals or either on empty stomach) so I switched to Carlson and got GI problem (mainly bloating) from it....
Then I bought the thorne research liquid K2 and applied it on skin (like RP told me, as to avoid any potential irritations of the intestines.) but it seemed to give me some sleep problems.
I finally decided to try the vitamin K2 ( MK-7) derived from natto and I felt really much better on it.
No GI pb, no sleep pb and even a slight tooth sensibility has gone since I started taking this supp.
Has anyone here also try this natto derived K2?
I bought the K2 from Jarrow (it does have some not friendly additives such as evening primrose and soybean oil but yet I can digest it way more easier....)

this is interesting. Jarrow was the one that I did not have any noticeable issues with. I switched to nutrigold because it didn't have those additives, and now I get bad cramping and had to throw it in the trash.

I'm just going to try the AOR Peak k2 (mk-4).
 

Garry

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I see this is an old thread...maybe someone will answer. So, mk-7 disrupts my sleep. Maybe it affects the Ca regulation needed for sleep? Does anyone have s 'formula' or co-supplements that if taken with the mk-7 that would allow sleep?

On a related note, my Dad died of complications from dialysis / blood thinners. Essentially, they killed all the Vit K complexes, and Ca precipitated in his vessels under his skin, causing many sores...so this proves the effectiveness and need for the mk-4 and 7 vitamins in the extreme. Mayo clinic called it calciphylaxis.
 
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