Vitamin K2 Dosage Recommendations Seem High

[Josh]

Hey



So i’ve just received Thorne Vitamin K2 (MK4).



The dosage says ‘one serving: 15 drops’ that equals to 15000mcg of K2, which would be 12,500% DV



I would honestly just stick to one drop every other day (1000mcg per drop) and i do get a small amount from diet. Chris Masterjohn recommends like 200mcg a day which would mean having one drop every 5 days would cover it, is that enough?



-How much do you all take a day of it? Is there any side effects to overdosing that you’ve experienced? (Seems to be quite safe at high doses apparently).

-Some people say about jaw widening? What it like for helping with MPB combating the calcification? Testosterone boosting effects?

-Do i need to supplement with K2 MK7 as well?



My diet is low in green so i should imagine i have lower K1 and i need to eat something to get it in, I was thinking cooked Kale/spinach/brocolii/ 50-100g a day? Will it being cooked retain the K1?



These are my daily sources of K which is pretty low (I do eat 100g of liver once a week as well).

 

[Maljam]

You don't need those colossal doses unless you have serious medical conditions and at that point it is akin to a drug.

What are your reasons for using vitamin K? Have a think about whether you even need the supplement.

 

[Josh]

Well my diet seems pretty low in it and i'm only considering it to correct a possible deficiency

 

[baccheion]

1.5 mg/day = bare minimum. 5-10 mg/day is good. Otherwise, you're jumping to 1 mg/kg.

 

[Maljam]

1.5 mg/day = bare minimum. 5-10 mg/day is good. Otherwise, you're jumping to 1 mg/kg.

5-10mg a day is good- good for what? Those are colossal dosages, nobody in history has taken doses of k2 that high daily. Perhaps there is a reason that amounts of K are not found naturally in foods? As I have said before vitamins at a high enough dose can behave like a drug, people should be more cautious with them, start low and slow.

 

[yashi]

I think I read that K2 can be made from gut bacteria. So it's really hard to gauge how much we get from that and it can vary from person to person depending on gut biome. If someone finds some estimates on the possible amounts produced in the gut and how to inrease the bacteria's production, I'd be happy to hear it.

 

[Josh]

Yeah honestly i'm planning to start out with just 1mg every 5 days to start with and then most i'll do is 1mg twice a week

 

[baccheion]

5-10mg a day is good- good for what? Those are colossal dosages, nobody in history has taken doses of k2 that high daily. Perhaps there is a reason that amounts of K are not found naturally in foods? As I have said before vitamins at a high enough dose can behave like a drug, people should be more cautious with them, start low and slow.

All things.

They did a study with K1. Up to ~250 mcg, it mainly handled clotting. When they bumped it up to 500 mcg, it carboxylated much of the osteocalcin. K1 and K2 aren't alike and it's said K1 doesn't convert as much to K2? On the other hand, it easily possible to get many milligrams of K1 from greens. Maybe the amounts of K2 aren't as unrealistic as assumed.

 

[Maljam]

All things.

They did a study with K1. Up to ~250 mcg, it mainly handled clotting. When they bumped it up to 500 mcg, it carboxylated much of the osteocalcin. K1 and K2 aren't alike and it's said K1 doesn't convert as much to K2? On the other hand, it easily possible to get many milligrams of K1 from greens. Maybe the amounts of K2 aren't as unrealistic as assumed.

"All things" "They" with no source are very vague.

So if the max dosage they used was 500 mcg, and you dont believe k1 converts to k2 in exact amounts, why are you recommending doses at least twenty times as high?

Your reasoning for recommending the doses is very weak and potentially dangerous and I hope never hurts the health of anyone on the forum.

What if somebody else said, "I saw a study of vitamin 1, well its not identical to vitamin 2 and it helped "all things" but you should take twenty times the amount of vitamin 2 that they used in the study of vitamin 1." You would (hopefully) not follow their advice based on just that alone.

 

[Jessie]

Mk-4 rapidly depletes itself, very short half life. 10mgs divided into two 5mg dosages everyday is not unreasonably large. In fact, the upper limit I'v read about is 45mgs everyday. Which is like 15mgs divided into three different dosages.

 

[Maljam]

Mk-4 rapidly depletes itself, very short half life. 10mgs divided into two 5mg dosages everyday is not unreasonably large. In fact, the upper limit I'v read about is 45mgs everyday. Which is like 15mgs divided into three different dosages.

Just because it has a short half life in the blood doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. Where do you think the k2 is going? It is going into the body's organs, tissues, bones, which of course is what it should be doing, it shouldn't be floating around the blood forever.

The studies done on k2 that reference 45mg a day involve Yoshihiro Sato, who had been found fabricating parts of his studies. I am personally skeptical of the 45mg limit.

I wouldn't recommend 15mg x 3, you have no idea what you are doing, why be a lab rat?

Researcher at the center of an epic fraud remains an enigma to those who exposed him

What universities can learn from one of science’s biggest frauds

Some of the advice given on this forum is quite frankly dangerous or at best, risky. Everyone seems to be offering advice but very few seem to be in good health.

 

[baccheion]

"All things" "They" with no source are very vague.

So if the max dosage they used was 500 mcg, and you dont believe k1 converts to k2 in exact amounts, why are you recommending doses at least twenty times as high?

Your reasoning for recommending the doses is very weak and potentially dangerous and I hope never hurts the health of anyone on the forum.

What if somebody else said, "I saw a study of vitamin 1, well its not identical to vitamin 2 and it helped "all things" but you should take twenty times the amount of vitamin 2 that they used in the study of vitamin 1." You would (hopefully) not follow their advice based on just that alone.

The study demonstrated the utility of K1. It was effectively the same in effect at that low amount as K2 at a similar/higher amount.

Beyond that, much more K1 than 500 mcg can be had from greens. It can easily be many milligrams. The connection thereafter I hold as clear.

 

[Maljam]

The study demonstrated the utility of K1. It was effectively the same in effect at that low amount as K2 at a similar/higher amount.

Beyond that, much more K1 than 500 mcg can be had from greens. It can easily be many milligrams. The connection thereafter I hold as clear.

Do you have a copy of the study?

A quick Google tells me 1 cup of kale has ~1mg. Who eats multiple cups of kale a day?


Kale, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories

 

[Jessie]

Just because it has a short half life in the blood doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. Where do you think the k2 is going? It is going into the body's organs, tissues, bones, which of course is what it should be doing, it shouldn't be floating around the blood forever.

The studies done on k2 that reference 45mg a day involve Yoshihiro Sato, who had been found fabricating parts of his studies. I am personally skeptical of the 45mg limit.

I wouldn't recommend 15mg x 3, you have no idea what you are doing, why be a lab rat?

Researcher at the center of an epic fraud remains an enigma to those who exposed him

What universities can learn from one of science’s biggest frauds

Some of the advice given on this forum is quite frankly dangerous or at best, risky. Everyone seems to be offering advice but very few seem to be in good health.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say the upper limit (45mgs) is advisable. It was more about context in relation to lower dosages. I take 10mgs daily and have done so for a real long time without any problems.

Also there's been hundreds of studies on Mk-4, more then whoever that person you mentioned is. Just use the search engine and type "vitamin K."

I can't comment on other people's health, but I'm in the best health I've currently ever been in. I ruined my health doing fad diets supported by broscience, or no science, like keto and carnivore. Most other people that follow Ray's work are very similar in that regard. And many people don't find Ray's work until they already have developed very serious health problems. So there's a very big disconnect with your correlation and causation assumptions. Imo

 

[Maljam]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say the upper limit (45mgs) is advisable. It was more about context in relation to lower dosages. I take 10mgs daily and have done so for a real long time without any problems.

Also there's been hundreds of studies on Mk-4, more then whoever that person you mentioned is. Just use the search engine and type "vitamin K."

I can't comment on other people's health, but I'm in the best health I've currently ever been in. I ruined my health doing fad diets supported by broscience, or no science, like keto and carnivore. Most other people that follow Ray's work are very similar in that regard. And many people don't find Ray's work until they already have developed very serious health problems. So there's a very big disconnect with your correlation and causation assumptions. Imo

How long have you been taking k2 at 10mg?

There isnt any disconnect. Look at how many people are still on this forum after multiple years and asking for help, then look at the ones that have left and their posts prior to leaving many of them don't follow the extreme high sugar, low fat diets that many here do.

 

[baccheion]

Do you have a copy of the study?

A quick Google tells me 1 cup of kale has ~1mg. Who eats multiple cups of kale a day?


Kale, raw Nutrition Facts & Calories

What happens with 5 lbs potatoes, 10 cups chard, 4-8 ounces chicken liver, and 12 (truly pastured organic raw) egg yolks? And megadose vitamin D3, enough to push PTH to the bottom of the range?

 

[Jessie]

How long have you been taking k2 at 10mg?

There isnt any disconnect. Look at how many people are still on this forum after multiple years and asking for help, then look at the ones that have left and their posts prior to leaving many of them don't follow the extreme high sugar, low fat diets that many here do.

About 9 months at that consistent dose. Before then I just used grassfed butter, assuming I was getting enough through that. But I was probably deficient. I also experimented with natto a couple times but it tasted like crap and has way too many bad fats in it. I tried Throne's product first, then I switched to Kuinone. I would give them both a thumbs up personally. Many K2 supplements on the market is filled with cheap crap.

Why would you assume that everyone joining the forum has health complications? I mean, I just joined to meet more like minded folk. I find your logic of reasoning here to be extremely backwards. People are less likely to leave if they're experiencing positive results, lol. The people that leave, more often then not, many of them probably gave up. Not because they corrected there issues. Or maybe life just got too busy for them and it had nothing to do with their health at all. You're being highly speculative and making bold assumptions.

Additionally, not everything mentioned here directly comes from the mouth of Ray Peat himself. For example, Ray has never given general guidelines to everyone for macro ratios. In fact Ray is constantly reminding people things are highly contextualized to different individuals. In a clip on YT he mentioned "most people" (which is just a ballpark estimate) will probably do fine with about 200-250 grams of carbohydrate. This is hardly a "extreme high sugar diet" you mention.

The main point to Ray's work in this regard is to suppress FAO, which can be induced by diet, but also (and perhaps more importantly) induced by stress hormones. You can eat a low-fat diet and still be in a high state of fatty acid oxidation by hormonal imbalances.

 

[Maljam]

What happens with 5 lbs potatoes, 10 cups chard, 4-8 ounces chicken liver, and 12 (truly pastured organic raw) egg yolks? And megadose vitamin D3, enough to push PTH to the bottom of the range?

I dont know what you are on about. You keep quoting a study which you refuse to post, I've no hope of finding it simply from the vague things you have mentioned about it. You then said greens have multiple milligrams of K, but they dont, unless you eat multiple cups a day, which I doubt many people do, apart from all the vegans that make them into smoothies. Is anything you say correct?

 

[baccheion]

I dont know what you are on about. You keep quoting a study which you refuse to post, I've no hope of finding it simply from the vague things you have mentioned about it. You then said greens have multiple milligrams of K, but they dont, unless you eat multiple cups a day, which I doubt many people do, apart from all the vegans that make them into smoothies. Is anything you say correct?

Punch what I said into CRON-o-meter..

 

[shine]

MK4 behaves differently then MK7. MK4 doesn't even show up in blood tests/doesn't seem to have a strong effect below 1.5 mg.
MK7 carboxylates osteocalcin completely at a dose of approximately 300mcg, so Masterjohn's 200mcg of MK7 is reasonable and what a lot of MK7 supplements have in them.
In order to completely carboxylate osteocalcin using K1, you would need a dose of approx. 1 mg K1.