Vitamin K1 Vs. K2 And How Much To Take With Aspirin?

[Greg says]

Aspirin always made me feel a bit weird. Sort of fragile. It made me feel like i had to just be still and lay down.

Intersting observation. This is how I feel. I've just taken a gram and was going to go out, but i thought/ felt that I better just lay down and take it easy [as if I was coming down with something??]. Maybe a reduction of stress hormones.

 

[ares]

Hello, I am a new member
my mother (she is 70 years old) is taking Acetylsalicylic acid (the medicine is called SALOSPIR), she has no heart conditions. The reason she is taking it is because she has a narrowing of the carotid artery
Is it safe for her to take a multivitamin which has 45μg (mcg) of k2 vitamin per serving?
The multivitamin is Solgar VM-Prime for Women and the description is shown in the image below
Thank you and congratulations to the forum

 

[Syncopated]

This book will answer any questions you might have about the differences between K1 and K2 :

 

[Syncopated]

This book will answer any questions you might have about the differences between K1 and K2 :

 

[Syncopated]

"Vitamin K2 and the calcium paradox."

Dr. Kate Bleue

 

[Syncopated]

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sour...Ct8QtwIIJTAA&usg=AOvVaw1zuaVHJNYW1I2DB0EJDks6

 

[TreasureVibe]

So which vitamin K2 is better, mk4 or mk7?

 

[Vinero]

So which vitamin K2 is better, mk4 or mk7?

MK4. It has been discussed many times on the forum that MK4 is superior.

 

[TreasureVibe]

MK4. It has been discussed many times on the forum that MK4 is superior.

Thanks.

 

[lvysaur]

Vitamin K1 is the one with clotting properties, and that's the one you'd want to take with aspirin.

Vitamin K2 has other properties. MK4 is absorbed immediately, while MK7 stays in the liver and is used as needed over a longer period of time.

 

[TreasureVibe]

Vitamin K1 is the one with clotting properties, and that's the one you'd want to take with aspirin.

Vitamin K2 has other properties. MK4 is absorbed immediately, while MK7 stays in the liver and is used as needed over a longer period of time.

Which one is the best for vein health, prevention of varicose veins?

 

[Amazoniac]

@jamies33, I had your post on Travi's thread in mind.

Intestinal, hepatic, and circulating vitamin K levels at low and high intakes of vitamin K in rats

"In the group receiving a diet rich in phylloquinone (Fig. 3(a)), substantial amounts of this vitamin were found in all parts of the intestinal tract, but the concentration increased from segment 1 to segments 6–9. So it seems that the absorption of the dietary phylloquinone was far from complete, and that its concentration increased during the passage through the upper part of the intestinal tract because other components of the diet were absorbed more readily. Remarkably, levels of the long-chain menaquinones were extremely low in all parts of the intestine (Fig. 3(b)). Also, in the group receiving MK-4 the dietary vitamin was recovered from the intestinal contents, but in general the concentrations were lower than in the phylloquinone group (Fig. 3(a)). So it seems that MK-4 is absorbed somewhat better than phylloquinone. As in the phylloquinone group, the intestinal production of MK-9 and MK-10 was decreased in animals receiving the menaquinone-rich diet. Surprisingly, however, relatively high amounts of MK-8 were found in animals on the MK-4 diet (Fig. 3(c)). The faecal MK-8 levels in these animals were substantially higher even than those in vitamin K-deficient rats."

"In the groups of controlled phylloquinone and MK-4 diets high concentrations of the respective vitamins were found in plasma. In the livers of both the menadione- supplemented and the phylloquinone-supplemented groups MK-4 was slightly increased, levels of other K-vitamins were comparable to those in the K-deficient group. In the MK-4 supplemented group the most remarkable observation was the prominent increase of MK-8 from less than 0.05 ng/g to 71 ng/g tissue, which is consistent with the high colonic contents of MK-8."

"[..]the total absorption of phylloquinone from the standard diet was not more than 10 %. An explanation for this poor uptake may come from the fact that the phylloquinone in this diet originates from grass, which forms the fibre component. In human subjects the uptake of vitamin K from green vegetables was 5-15 %, depending on the fat content of the meal (Gijsbers et al. 1996)."​

There's a positive side to it:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955286309002113
"All the vitamin K analogues analyzed in our study exhibited varied levels of anti-inflammatory activity. The isoprenyl side chain structures, except geranylgeraniol, of these analogues did not show such activity; warfarin did not interfere with this activity. The results of our study suggest that the 2-methyl-1,4-naphtoquinone ring structure contributes to express the anti-inflammatory activity, which is independent of the Gla formation activity of vitamin K."​

.
It should protect the digestive tract directly.

To add to its protective properties, bactaeria also require vit K as much as we do. Supplementing it topically will starve them and they in turn might rebel, switching them to a pathogenic profile. Supplementing it topically as a sole source can be an issue because other tissues might consume it before it has a chance to nourish the liver, and if the dose is sufficient to do that, the other tissues might get more than needed.​

.
"In the supplemented diets, the added K-vitamins had been dissolved in maize oil, from which they are more readily extracted by the action of bile salts. Here a marked difference was observed between phylloquinone and the slightly more hydrophylic MK-4, the latter being absorbed substantially better than phylloquinone. In this respect it is noteworthy that Ichihashi et al. (1992) reported some colonic MK-4 absorption even in the absence of bile salts."

"We observed that high phylloquinone intake suppressed the intestinal menaquinone production. Apparently the flora is capable of using this vitamin, thereby shutting down its own menaquinone production. It is also clear that, despite the high phylloquinone concentration in the diet, the phylloquinone concentration was low in the upper part of the digestive tract. A possible explanation may be that in all animals (also in the other groups) the ileum was virtually empty, so that mucosal material and not digested food were the main components of what was assembled from its contents. This effect would have been negligible in the caecum and colon, where a high degree of intestinal filling was observed. The gradual increase of phylloquinone downstream in the digestive tract as well as its relatively high concentration in colon and faeces suggests that its absorption is far from complete. In the group receiving a diet rich in MK-4 the recovery of the corresponding vitamer from the intestinal contents was substantially lower than in the phylloquinone group, which is consistent with a better absorption of MK-4 than of phylloquinone (Table 1). This seems to be in contrast to previous data from Groenen-van Dooren et al. (1993, 1995), who showed that the utilization of nutritional phylloquinone for prothrombin synthesis is better than that of MK-4. Differences between the previous protocols and the present experiment are that Groenen-van Dooren et al. (1993, 1995) used a single dose of vitamin K, and that the vitamers were dissolved in detergent (HCO-60). When used in a steady-state situation and dissolved in a natural compound (maize oil) it seems that MK-4 and phylloquinone accumulate in the liver to comparable levels.​

.
--
Phylloquinone and Menaquinone-4 Distribution in Rats: Synthesis rather than Uptake Determines Menaquinone-4 Organ Concentrations (1996)

"After supplementing vitamin K-deficient rats with the minimal required daily amount of phylloquinone, the heart and liver were found to be the organs with the highest concentration of the vitamin (Fig. 1a). This is comparable with our observations made in rats fed diets containing excess phylloquinone (Thijssen and Drittij-Reijnders 1994). It appears, therefore, that next to the liver, the heart is a principal site for vitamin K accumulation."

"Supplementing the diet with MK-4 had only a small effect on MK-4 concentrations in the pancreas and salivary gland but, as did phylloquinone, substantially increased the liver and heart MK-4 concentrations (Fig. 2)."

"Considering the apparent low hepatic capacity to synthesize MK-4 (see Fig. 1b and Fig. 3), we believe, however, that at least the MK-4 in liver emanates from absorbed MK-4. The MK-4 concentrations in the plasma and liver of the rats fed MK-4 are low when compared with the phylloquinone concentrations in the phylloquinone-fed rats. This suggests that either MK-4 is poorly absorbed or highly cleared. Konishi et al. (1973) reported faster hepatic clearance of MK-4 radioactivity compared with phylloquinone radioactivity. These and our findings may explain the lower efficacy of MK-4 to maintain hemostasis in rats (Groenen-van Dooren et al. 1993)."

"In summary, the study shows nonhepatic rat organs to accumulate vitamin K mainly in the form of MK-4. This accumulation is due to local synthesis rather than uptake. Menadione, but also dietary phylloquinone, is a source for the 2-methyl-l,4-naphtoquinone nucleus. Phylloquinone itself is mainly taken up by the liver and heart. If there is a function for nonhepatic vitamin K, MK-4 rather than phylloquinone may be the functional vitamin."​

.
If you're using MK-4 as your major source of vit K, it's better to fractionate the doses.
But phylloquinone is much more effective than K2 for coagulation when low doses are concerned:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304416597000755
"The minimal dietary requirements (MDR) to attain maximal prothrombin synthesis were determined to be 0.6 and 6–10 µg/g of food for K1 and MK-4, respectively."​

And..

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0006295293905193
"Oral administration of the vitamins showed that the efficacy of K1 was at least two-fold higher than that of MK-4."​

Has anyone compared supplemental K1 with K2 for bleeding issues?

--
- Coagulation Meets Calcification: The Vitamin K System
- Menaquinone-4 in breast milk is derived from dietary phylloquinone
- Vitamin K, an example of triage theory: is micronutrient inadequacy linked to diseases of aging?
- Vitamin K Suppresses Lipopolysaccharide-Induced Inflammation in the Rat
- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/875632829400027W

--
@haidut - Consider releasing an alternative to Kuinone that provides something like 500 mcg of K1* and 150 mcg of K2 per serving.
*Vitamin K deficiency from dietary vitamin K restriction in humans | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic

High phylloquinone intake is required to achieve maximal osteocalcin γ-carboxylation | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic
When you combine both they can be synergistic in perhaps decreasing the dose needed for maximum benefit.

You can get the same effect by going higher on either alone, but efficiency is important in biology to avoid unnecessary demands.

 

[haidut]

@jamies33, I had your post on Travi's thread in mind.

Intestinal, hepatic, and circulating vitamin K levels at low and high intakes of vitamin K in rats

"In the group receiving a diet rich in phylloquinone (Fig. 3(a)), substantial amounts of this vitamin were found in all parts of the intestinal tract, but the concentration increased from segment 1 to segments 6–9. So it seems that the absorption of the dietary phylloquinone was far from complete, and that its concentration increased during the passage through the upper part of the intestinal tract because other components of the diet were absorbed more readily. Remarkably, levels of the long-chain menaquinones were extremely low in all parts of the intestine (Fig. 3(b)). Also, in the group receiving MK-4 the dietary vitamin was recovered from the intestinal contents, but in general the concentrations were lower than in the phylloquinone group (Fig. 3(a)). So it seems that MK-4 is absorbed somewhat better than phylloquinone. As in the phylloquinone group, the intestinal production of MK-9 and MK-10 was decreased in animals receiving the menaquinone-rich diet. Surprisingly, however, relatively high amounts of MK-8 were found in animals on the MK-4 diet (Fig. 3(c)). The faecal MK-8 levels in these animals were substantially higher even than those in vitamin K-deficient rats."

"In the groups of controlled phylloquinone and MK-4 diets high concentrations of the respective vitamins were found in plasma. In the livers of both the menadione- supplemented and the phylloquinone-supplemented groups MK-4 was slightly increased, levels of other K-vitamins were comparable to those in the K-deficient group. In the MK-4 supplemented group the most remarkable observation was the prominent increase of MK-8 from less than 0.05 ng/g to 71 ng/g tissue, which is consistent with the high colonic contents of MK-8."

"[..]the total absorption of phylloquinone from the standard diet was not more than 10 %. An explanation for this poor uptake may come from the fact that the phylloquinone in this diet originates from grass, which forms the fibre component. In human subjects the uptake of vitamin K from green vegetables was 5-15 %, depending on the fat content of the meal (Gijsbers et al. 1996)."​

There's a positive side to it:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955286309002113
"All the vitamin K analogues analyzed in our study exhibited varied levels of anti-inflammatory activity. The isoprenyl side chain structures, except geranylgeraniol, of these analogues did not show such activity; warfarin did not interfere with this activity. The results of our study suggest that the 2-methyl-1,4-naphtoquinone ring structure contributes to express the anti-inflammatory activity, which is independent of the Gla formation activity of vitamin K."​

.
It should protect the digestive tract directly.

To add to its protective properties, bactaeria also require vit K as much as we do. Supplementing it topically will starve them and they in turn might rebel, switching them to a pathogenic profile. Supplementing it topically as a sole source can be an issue because other tissues might consume it before it has a chance to nourish the liver, and if the dose is sufficient to do that, the other tissues might get more than needed.​

.
"In the supplemented diets, the added K-vitamins had been dissolved in maize oil, from which they are more readily extracted by the action of bile salts. Here a marked difference was observed between phylloquinone and the slightly more hydrophylic MK-4, the latter being absorbed substantially better than phylloquinone. In this respect it is noteworthy that Ichihashi et al. (1992) reported some colonic MK-4 absorption even in the absence of bile salts."

"We observed that high phylloquinone intake suppressed the intestinal menaquinone production. Apparently the flora is capable of using this vitamin, thereby shutting down its own menaquinone production. It is also clear that, despite the high phylloquinone concentration in the diet, the phylloquinone concentration was low in the upper part of the digestive tract. A possible explanation may be that in all animals (also in the other groups) the ileum was virtually empty, so that mucosal material and not digested food were the main components of what was assembled from its contents. This effect would have been negligible in the caecum and colon, where a high degree of intestinal filling was observed. The gradual increase of phylloquinone downstream in the digestive tract as well as its relatively high concentration in colon and faeces suggests that its absorption is far from complete. In the group receiving a diet rich in MK-4 the recovery of the corresponding vitamer from the intestinal contents was substantially lower than in the phylloquinone group, which is consistent with a better absorption of MK-4 than of phylloquinone (Table 1). This seems to be in contrast to previous data from Groenen-van Dooren et al. (1993, 1995), who showed that the utilization of nutritional phylloquinone for prothrombin synthesis is better than that of MK-4. Differences between the previous protocols and the present experiment are that Groenen-van Dooren et al. (1993, 1995) used a single dose of vitamin K, and that the vitamers were dissolved in detergent (HCO-60). When used in a steady-state situation and dissolved in a natural compound (maize oil) it seems that MK-4 and phylloquinone accumulate in the liver to comparable levels.​

.
--
Phylloquinone and Menaquinone-4 Distribution in Rats: Synthesis rather than Uptake Determines Menaquinone-4 Organ Concentrations (1996)

"After supplementing vitamin K-deficient rats with the minimal required daily amount of phylloquinone, the heart and liver were found to be the organs with the highest concentration of the vitamin (Fig. 1a). This is comparable with our observations made in rats fed diets containing excess phylloquinone (Thijssen and Drittij-Reijnders 1994). It appears, therefore, that next to the liver, the heart is a principal site for vitamin K accumulation."

"Supplementing the diet with MK-4 had only a small effect on MK-4 concentrations in the pancreas and salivary gland but, as did phylloquinone, substantially increased the liver and heart MK-4 concentrations (Fig. 2)."

"Considering the apparent low hepatic capacity to synthesize MK-4 (see Fig. 1b and Fig. 3), we believe, however, that at least the MK-4 in liver emanates from absorbed MK-4. The MK-4 concentrations in the plasma and liver of the rats fed MK-4 are low when compared with the phylloquinone concentrations in the phylloquinone-fed rats. This suggests that either MK-4 is poorly absorbed or highly cleared. Konishi et al. (1973) reported faster hepatic clearance of MK-4 radioactivity compared with phylloquinone radioactivity. These and our findings may explain the lower efficacy of MK-4 to maintain hemostasis in rats (Groenen-van Dooren et al. 1993)."

"In summary, the study shows nonhepatic rat organs to accumulate vitamin K mainly in the form of MK-4. This accumulation is due to local synthesis rather than uptake. Menadione, but also dietary phylloquinone, is a source for the 2-methyl-l,4-naphtoquinone nucleus. Phylloquinone itself is mainly taken up by the liver and heart. If there is a function for nonhepatic vitamin K, MK-4 rather than phylloquinone may be the functional vitamin."​

.
If you're using MK-4 as your major source of vit K, it's better to fractionate the doses.
But phylloquinone is much more effective than K2 for coagulation when low doses are concerned:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304416597000755
"The minimal dietary requirements (MDR) to attain maximal prothrombin synthesis were determined to be 0.6 and 6–10 µg/g of food for K1 and MK-4, respectively."​

And..

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0006295293905193
"Oral administration of the vitamins showed that the efficacy of K1 was at least two-fold higher than that of MK-4."​

Has anyone compared supplemental K1 with K2 for bleeding issues?

--
- Coagulation Meets Calcification: The Vitamin K System
- Menaquinone-4 in breast milk is derived from dietary phylloquinone
- Vitamin K, an example of triage theory: is micronutrient inadequacy linked to diseases of aging?
- Vitamin K Suppresses Lipopolysaccharide-Induced Inflammation in the Rat
- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/875632829400027W

--
@haidut - Consider releasing an alternative to Kuinone that provides something like 500 mcg of K1* and 150 mcg of K2 per serving.
*Vitamin K deficiency from dietary vitamin K restriction in humans | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic

High phylloquinone intake is required to achieve maximal osteocalcin γ-carboxylation | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic
When you combine both they can be synergistic in perhaps decreasing the dose needed for maximum benefit.

You can get the same effect by going higher on either alone, but efficiency is important in biology to avoid unnecessary demands.

About 2 years ago I asked Peat about taking a mix of K1 and K2 and he said something along the lines of "if you can find affordable menaquinone-4 to take a few milligrams daily there is probably no need to add K1. The K1 is typically used as a cheap pro-vitamin when MK-4 is not available or the vendor wants to beef up profits by selling less MK-4 per pill. The only thing K1 does better than MK-4 is coagulation."

 

[Amazoniac]

About 2 years ago I asked Peat about taking a mix of K1 and K2 and he said something along the lines of "if you can find affordable menaquinone-4 to take a few milligrams daily there is probably no need to add K1. The K1 is typically used as a cheap pro-vitamin when MK-4 is not available or the vendor wants to beef up profits by selling less MK-4 per pill. The only thing K1 does better than MK-4 is coagulation."

Cool. But in my opinion (which is in agreement with my crystal ball) it's better to leave for K1 what it can do best for the reasons mentioned above. Why not a batch trial in case others are interested? There is no risk to it, no one will acquire phylloquinonemia and maybe we can learn something unexpected from it.

If you're wondering why not buy them isolated and try that, there's the purity issue that might make it difficult to grasp, just like the different experiences from K2 vendors.

 

[haidut]

Cool. But in my opinion (which is in agreement with my crystal ball) it's better to leave for K1 what it can do best for the reasons mentioned above. Why not a batch trial in case others are interested? There is no risk to it, no one will acquire phylloquinonemia and maybe we can learn something unexpected from it.

If you're wondering why not buy them isolated and try that, there's the purity issue that might make it difficult to grasp, just like the different experiences from K2 vendors.

OK, I already emailed my bulk vendors to see if they have K1 and what prices they can offer.

 

[Amazoniac]

OK, I already emailed my bulk vendors to see if they have K1 and what prices they can offer.

If you happen to decide to try such alternative, it's worth decreasing the MK-4 dose to what can be obtained from foods, which is close to what was suggested, otherwise it can blur the effects of K1. Then people can start adding to it Kuinone to be able to judge if there are positive effects from increasing K2 and when those stop.

 

[YourUniverse]

I read the whole post, but I really like the end:

When you combine both they can be synergistic in perhaps decreasing the dose needed for maximum benefit.

You can get the same effect by going higher on either alone, but efficiency is important in biology to avoid unnecessary demands.

I feel this intuitively to be true. Thanks for the informative post.

 

[Amazoniac]

@haidut, if you want to get even more physiological with the supplement, the suggested serving can be provided in 3-2 drops to avoid unusual peaks that only happen when vit K is not present in the food structure:

Comparison of Phylloquinone Bioavailability from Food Sources or a Supplement in Human Subjects

Spoiler

 

[YourUniverse]

To add to its protective properties, bactaeria also require vit K as much as we do. Supplementing it topically will starve them and they in turn might rebel, switching them to a pathogenic profile. Supplementing it topically as a sole source can be an issue because other tissues might consume it before it has a chance to nourish the liver, and if the dose is sufficient to do that, the other tissues might get more than needed

I find this substantial as well, because the MK4 supplement I am taking is only designed for external (topical) use, which does not seem to be the best delivery for the substance

 

[Amazoniac]

Chlorophyll and Chlorophyllin

"The basic structure of chlorophyll is a porphyrin ring similar to that of heme in hemoglobin, although the central atom in chlorophyll is magnesium instead of iron. The long hydrocarbon (phytol) tail attached to the porphyrin ring makes chlorophyll fat-soluble and insoluble in water. Two different types of chlorophyll (chlorophyll a and chlorophyll b) are found in plants (Figure 1). The small difference in one of the side chains allows each type of chlorophyll to absorb light at slightly different wavelengths."

"Chlorophyll and chlorophyllin are able to form tight molecular complexes with certain chemicals known or suspected to cause cancer, including polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons found in tobacco smoke (5), some heterocyclic amines found in cooked meat (6), and aflatoxin-B1 (7). The binding of chlorophyll or chlorophyllin to these potential carcinogens may interfere with gastrointestinal absorption of potential carcinogens, reducing the amount that reaches susceptible tissues (8)."​

Koch on coffee and chlorophyll.https://raypeatforum.com/community/...usually-eat-in-a-day.9977/page-15#post-307897