Vitamin K1 Vs. K2 And How Much To Take With Aspirin?

Discussion in 'K' started by charlie, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    I see references all around about Peat saying to take vitamin K to offset aspirins thinning of the blood. However, it never says Vitamin K1 or K2, it just says Vitamin K. I see people saying they take Vitamin K2, but I thought K2 was more for bone health, and K1 is more for clotting factor. So which one is Ray Peat referring to when he says to take some vitamin K along with aspirin? And how much should be taken? Is there a correct ratio to try for? Is there any signs that show up if you are not getting enough K with your Aspirin? Maybe like bloody noses or something....
     
  2. narouz

    narouz Member

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    Yes, a stumbling block for me too.
    Again, this confusion goes back to the source, Dr. P.
    He does--in what I've seen from him--tend to just say "K,"
    as you say, Charlie.
    I did, however, read him responding to the question (which K?)
    and he said something like:
    "They are both similar in their actions."
    I interpreted that a meaning either would be fine.
    Just to cover my bases, I take both in low dosages.
    I tend to take a little of each every time I take an aspirin--
    and I've wondered about that practice also:
    maybe if you take some K or every week even...that would be sufficient...?
    Peat often suggests supplement taking
    (which as you know he generally does not favor instead of food sources)
    on a weekly kind of basis--
    I guess because they stay in the blood or tissue for a long time....
     
  3. narouz

    narouz Member

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    The following quotation is from a poster on Danny Roddy's website.
    The thread is a commentary following his article
    "Carbon Dioxide: The Real Reason Safe Starches Are a Joke"
    http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2012...the-real-reason-safe-starches-are-a-joke.html

    "I have to go to work so I'm having a hard time deciding which link to post. But if you google calcium + fibrin and maybe add in coagulation you will get a lot of hits. Calcium is part of the fibrin process. The proteolytic enzymes break down the fibrin, it's true, but then what happens to the calcium that is set free? I don't even know if it's a good idea to take proteolytic enzymes without the Vitamin K2. Vitamin K2 cleans the blood of calcium. That's why VK2 is helpful in getting off of warfarin or coumadin. This reduces clotting, which thins the blood. Vitamin K1's action is the total opposite. That's why Vitamin K1 is the antidote to warfarin overdose, and aspirin overdose, too.
    I think natto is an example of the whole food being better than man made supplements. Can you imagine, they make nattokinase, take out the K2, and then brag about it! Too funny. Oh, and then they sell you the K2 in a different bottle."
    --May 23, 2012 | Violeta

    Just one poster's thoughts, but thought it was interesting.
    Peat says the opposite,
    that K1 and K2 have similar actions in the body.
     
  4. OP
    charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    I wish someone would write Dr. Peat so we can get a clarification on this.
     
  5. Rem

    Rem Member

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    He thinks that K1 and K2 are both good but that K1 is probably a little less active than K2
     
  6. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    On a WBM interview Peat said 1mg K/1 aspirin (325mg). When asked about K1 or K2, he said either one is good.
     
  7. Andrew Kim

    Andrew Kim Member

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    K1 is tested and it works quickly. I'm not sure how effective K2 is but for the purpose of preventing bleeding, K1 works well.
     
  8. fat4thought

    fat4thought Member

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    That has not been my experience.
     
  9. nwo2012

    nwo2012 Member

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    Well I know that 15mg K2 is "More than enough" for 800mg aspirin.
     
  10. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    I'm taking 4mg of K1/K2. According to what Peat has said, that should be enough for 4 of the 325 mg aspirin. And I was sometimes taking an extra 2 at bedtime.

    Sorry I got the numbers wrong before. This cold.
     
  11. fat4thought

    fat4thought Member

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    The ability of K1 to do *anything* in the body will be directly affected by one's ability to convert K1 to K2, and then by the amount of carbon dioxide available. This is because before K1 can affect the carboxylation (activation) of proteins involved in *both clotting and bone calcification* it has to be converted to K2.

    So, that's really nice if K1 works for some people, but that's not going to be the case for everyone. That's because K1 is converted to K2 by digestive flora and the endogenous enzyme vitamin K epoxide reductase (VKORC1). There are several polymorphisms in the VKORC1 gene which can affect the downstream activation of both enzymes involved in bone calcification (osteocalcin) and clotting (clotting factors). Taking antibiotics or living in a sterile environment can ameliorate K2 levels in rats.

    Aspirin specifically works on this system by increasing bleeding, and also inhibiting VKORC1. So, expecting K1 to work -- well, that's basically cheering it on to compete with aspirin to activate rather than inhibit VKORC1. But taking K2 bypasses VKORC1 entirely, ensuring that a certain amount of K works on the gamma glutamyl carboxylase enzyme to carboxylate (activate) downstream processes, whereas that is going to be lessened in the situation where one is taking K1 alone, expecting it to compete with the inhibitor (aspirin) of VKORC1. (I explained this in two different ways in this paragraph, so hopefully that is not too confusing).

    There are also potential polymorphisms in the gamma glutamyl carboxylase gene -- the enzyme that carboxylates the downstream proteins involved in both bone calcification and clotting. So, the rate limiting factors for this step are going to be 1) availability of ****K2***** (not K1), 2) availability of CO2, and 3) active gamma glutamyl carboxylase enzyme.

    So, in short, in order to increase the likelihood of aspirin not being problematic, one should be taking K2, and being sure to otherwise support respiration such that there would be enough CO2, and be aware that there could be an extra challenge in the sense of gastrointestinal flora or genetics for some individuals. Those individuals might have indication of this possibility through 1) easy bruising, 2) petechiae or other signs of bleeding, 3) gastrointestinal ulceration, or 4) spitting up blood.

    Of course, perhaps there are no actual metabolic roadblocks, and a person is just overdosing on aspirin in the face of a deficiency in vitamin K, which could be from eating a low-fat diet, other other drain on the clotting system (years of PUFA), which would decrease both absorption and dietary availability of the nutrient.

    But it seems like a no-brainer to me: supplement aspirin, eat low-fat, and either don't take any K, or take mostly K1, and sure, there may be some ulceration or bleeding problems. Or development of cavities or bone fractures.

    A better course of action is probably to supplement K2, eat a moderate amount of fat, and supplement aspirin after establishing this groundwork.
     
  12. OP
    charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    fat4thought, WOW! Many thanks for taking the time to write that out. :thankyoublue

    I am gonna eat some lunch and then come back and read it a couple of more times.
     
  13. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    I've had a recent problem with aspirin and stomach bleeding. I had been following Peats advice and using 1mg vit k per each 325mg aspirin. I have used Super K which contains K1 and K2 as you all probably know.

    RP has said that either K1 or K 2 would do the job. But, considering that K1 must be converted to K2 to work, then, using the Super K, one would need to count only the K2.

    Perhaps somebody should ask RP about this when he returns from traveling.
     
  14. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    I should have said that I was taking extra aspirins for pain at night. And that therefore I was not following RP s advice at those times.

    And That this was an interesting post, fat4thought. Food for discussion with the various opinions. Andrew Kim had posted about using K1. I'll just use both and dissolve the aspirin too.
     
  15. kettlebell

    kettlebell Member

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    I would not want to have to be the one to open his inbox when he returns from holiday

    "You have 1000211 new emails"
     
  16. OP
    charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    :eek
     
  17. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    He did say his connection in Mexico is very slow. Then, something about looking things up first. He said something politely that I took to mean please hold off.... Then, a few days ago, he wrote he was leaving for 3 weeks to travel.
     
  18. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

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    The only thing I know for sure it's that Ray told me to use either the life extension super K or Carlson labs vitamin K2.
     
  19. Imonaquest

    Imonaquest Member

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    I bought Vitamin K2 because I took aspirin for the first time today. There were 2 different kinds in the Vitamin Shoppe. Both were 50mcg. I would have to take 10-20 per day to meet Peat's recommendation. It would cost me $5 a day! No way can that be right.
     
  20. Imonaquest

    Imonaquest Member

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    Looks like nearly every K2 product on the market is 45-100mcg. Would take 5-10 pills per day of the 100mcg. Even so, $3 a day on K2. Thorne Research makes a Liquid K2 product that's $60, but its 1mg of K2 per drop. And there are like 700 servings. Without question the best bang for your K2 buck. ***t will last you 2 years for $60.
     
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