Vitamin K level, not Vitamin E may explain cancer link

haidut

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This article claims that there is renewed interest in using vitamin E for cancer prevention and that the initial results linking alpha tocopherol to cancer could be invalid. In some cases, the analysis may have been affected by the similarity of structure between vitamin E and K, and the higher cancer risk could have been due to the lower vitamin K levels in the vitamin E groups. The depletion effects vitamin E has on vitamin K1 is well known.

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Researc ... -Symposium

"...The heavily criticised research linking vitamin E and cancer has damaged the sector, but professor Maret Traber from the US Linus Pauling Institute told the symposium study into vitamin K and vitamin E levels and interactions was shedding light on the issue. "There has been a huge vitamin E backlash due to study links to cancer and more", professor Traber said. She suggested "those adverse effects have nothing to do with vitamin E and everything to do with inadequate vitamin K". She noted the molecular structure of certain vitamin E and vitamin K forms was very similar, which may have caused some analytical confusion. Research into the interaction and regulation of the two fat-soluble vitamins in different bodily centres like the brain and liver was required. "Vitamin K is huge in the brain. But nobody is researching it". She wondered: "Is decreased vitamin K due to increased vitamin E and metabolites in bile?" In an earlier presentation, professor Jan Frank from the University of Hohenheim where the symposium is taking place, noted vitamin E forms like the tocopherol family, particularly alpha-tocopherol could play a role in healthy microbiome regulation. Professor Gabriele Cruciani from the University of Perugia in Italy said vitamin E had potential to reduce some drug side effects. His research had revealed: "Many protein structures have similar cavities where nutrients like vitamin E can act." Cruciani's Perugia colleague, professor Francesco Galli said vitamin E research had shown results in epilepsy."
 
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Much like so many things you say haidut, i don't get it. By that i mean i really respect you and really like your debates with danny roddy, but its just way over my head. Can u please explain? Thanks.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Two Devided by Zero said:
post 110251 Much like so many things you say haidut, i don't get it. By that i mean i really respect you and really like your debates with danny roddy, but its just way over my head. Can u please explain? Thanks.

There have seen several controlled studies on vitamin E and selenium for cancer prevention and they all use alpha tocopherol only. Some of the trials showed increased risk of prostate cancer from vitamin E supplementation, and the consensus in Peat-world had been that it was due to alpha tocopherol depleting gamma tocopherol. Gamma tocopherol is the one that has been shown to have protective effects from prostate cancer.
However, this study says that it is not the alpha tocopherol supplementation to blame but the low levels of vitamin K in the people in the study. Also, since the chemical structure of vitamin E and K is so similar, some people are questioning if the data analysis was correct. Finally, one of the scientists made the connection between vitamin E supplementation depleting vitamin K, which has been discussed many times on the forum.
There is a lot of background to this, so can;t really condense all that in single post. But the gist of the story is that vitamin E may have been unfairly blamed for the negative anti-cancer results and research into it for health conditions may be making a comeback.
 
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Diogo

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So, if I am taking aspirin everyday and Vit E, should I still take K2?
I´m not quite grasping it
 

cremes

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So, if I am taking aspirin everyday and Vit E, should I still take K2?
I´m not quite grasping it
Yes, but take them 4+ hours apart. Vit E limits Vit K2 absorption when taken close together because they both use the same transport mechanism. Separating by a few hours avoids this.

I take my E in the morning and my K2 before bed.
 

Diogo

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Yes, but take them 4+ hours apart. Vit E limits Vit K2 absorption when taken close together because they both use the same transport mechanism. Separating by a few hours avoids this.

I take my E in the morning and my K2 before bed.
Perfect, thank you for your help!
 

cremes

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@cremes Hi, may I please ask what Vit E and K supplements you take? I am in the UK. Thankyou.
Sure, but I’ll just sound like a shill for @haidut and his company, haha. I take idealabsdc.com Tocovit as my E and Kuinone as my K2. I use the E orally in the morning and the K2 topically.

I had a heart attack last June at the tender age of 50. My research shows E and K2 to be the best options for stabilizing my situation. I am slowly migrating to a Peat-inspired diet after years of dabbling with keto, water fasting, and dry fasting. None of those staved off my occlusions (3-vessel disease) so I view them all as useless. Hope this explanation helps you understand my choices.
 

Waynish

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You have to believe in way too many hair-brained theories like molecules working like their tinker-toy diagrams to also believe these things they're calling Vitamin E and Vitamin K are the same as they occur naturally. Which reminds me, @haidut, can you state in simple terms how Kuinone is synthesized, purified, or extracted?
 

Sparks

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Sure, but I’ll just sound like a shill for @haidut and his company, haha. I take idealabsdc.com Tocovit as my E and Kuinone as my K2. I use the E orally in the morning and the K2 topically.

I had a heart attack last June at the tender age of 50. My research shows E and K2 to be the best options for stabilizing my situation. I am slowly migrating to a Peat-inspired diet after years of dabbling with keto, water fasting, and dry fasting. None of those staved off my occlusions (3-vessel disease) so I view them all as useless. Hope this explanation helps you understand my choices.
Thank you so very much Cremes for such a speedy response. I am so sorry that you have had such a bad time and hope that you are on the mend. I think that the courier charges for Idealabs products are price prohibitive. I'll keep looking for a supplier this side of the pond. All the very best.
 

cremes

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You have to believe in way too many hair-brained theories like molecules working like their tinker-toy diagrams to also believe these things they're calling Vitamin E and Vitamin K are the same as they occur naturally. Which reminds me, @haidut, can you state in simple terms how Kuinone is synthesized, purified, or extracted?
I can’t speak to the K supplement but the E supplement comes from wheat germ oil. That’s a well know natural source.

I agree there is some amount of faith involved with any product. I am not going to learn the proper things to synthesize it myself so I trust that Haidut has done that work for me.
 

Diogo

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I can’t speak to the K supplement but the E supplement comes from wheat germ oil. That’s a well know natural source.

I agree there is some amount of faith involved with any product. I am not going to learn the proper things to synthesize it myself so I trust that Haidut has done that work for me.
The one from Idealabs?
 

Waynish

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I can’t speak to the K supplement but the E supplement comes from wheat germ oil. That’s a well know natural source.

I agree there is some amount of faith involved with any product. I am not going to learn the proper things to synthesize it myself so I trust that Haidut has done that work for me.
Why do you think they're all so tight lipped about how they make these things when it can't be so hard. Instead of "it is vitamin E from wheat germ" we should think "they took wheat germ and did some extracting, filtering, and sometimes added chemicals to it." You can filter this substance and take narrow bands of it when it settles after spinning it up in a centrifuge. This is also how they were supposed to isolate viruses by the way. They would theoretically be within a certain "atomic weight" based on their structure and then should exist within a certain band of the now centrifuge-induced, weight-differentiated sample. But how do we know this is "Vitamin E" - I don't think Peat was able to see through this topic clearly enough either. We are making sounds with our mouths and getting confused somewhere in the process.
So, yes, you can process raw materials and output things you call "vitamins" - but how did you prove that the isolated processed material is more therapeutic than eating more or less or the same amount in its raw form? Almost zero biologists are able to think from first principles, clearly.
 

cremes

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Why do you think they're all so tight lipped about how they make these things when it can't be so hard. Instead of "it is vitamin E from wheat germ" we should think "they took wheat germ and did some extracting, filtering, and sometimes added chemicals to it." You can filter this substance and take narrow bands of it when it settles after spinning it up in a centrifuge. This is also how they were supposed to isolate viruses by the way. They would theoretically be within a certain "atomic weight" based on their structure and then should exist within a certain band of the now centrifuge-induced, weight-differentiated sample. But how do we know this is "Vitamin E" - I don't think Peat was able to see through this topic clearly enough either. We are making sounds with our mouths and getting confused somewhere in the process.
So, yes, you can process raw materials and output things you call "vitamins" - but how did you prove that the isolated processed material is more therapeutic than eating more or less or the same amount in its raw form? Almost zero biologists are able to think from first principles, clearly.
What’s your suggestion? Eat raw wheat germ?

I don’t understand the point of your post other than Trust No One. Fine for you but I choose to trust some.
 

Waynish

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What’s your suggestion? Eat raw wheat germ?

I don’t understand the point of your post other than Trust No One. Fine for you but I choose to trust some.
My suggestion is to try to determine cause and effect and let go of thinking you already know it via complex labels like "vitamins" and "molecules". Talk of vitamins and molecules should be considered like talk of ghosts and demons, though the latter has actually been witnessed by more people.
 

cremes

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My suggestion is to try to determine cause and effect and let go of thinking you already know it via complex labels like "vitamins" and "molecules". Talk of vitamins and molecules should be considered like talk of ghosts and demons, though the latter has actually been witnessed by more people.
I don’t understand this advice. It implies that maybe the cause & effect for my body and health are different than everyone else. If each person needs to rediscover the same or similar cause and effect then we as a society will never progress.

This may hijack this thread a bit but perhaps you can provide an example from your life where “known cause and effect” were wrong and you had to discover it on your own. For example, maybe the demon known as ascorbic acid does something different to your body than everyone else such as it gives you pellagra.
 

Waynish

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I don’t understand this advice. It implies that maybe the cause & effect for my body and health are different than everyone else. If each person needs to rediscover the same or similar cause and effect then we as a society will never progress.

This may hijack this thread a bit but perhaps you can provide an example from your life where “known cause and effect” were wrong and you had to discover it on your own. For example, maybe the demon known as ascorbic acid does something different to your body than everyone else such as it gives you pellagra.
I didn't say anything about the diversity of responses to medication or that everyone needs to figure it out themselves. But people clearly don't understand things the way they claim to - especially regarding vitamins and the difference between what we're exposed to in food vs these essentially proprietary and mostly secret fabrication process of supplements.
 

Limon9

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Enlightening thread. I have since realized that not only is there no spoon, but there is no Vitamin E bottle either.
 
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

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