Vitamin E Supplementation: Effect On Sodium And Vitamin K Requirements?

[j.]

Could vitamin E supplementation increase sodium requirements?

 

[j.]

My thought was that supplementation of progesterone allows more salt to be excreted, and that vitamin E has some of the effects of progesterone.

 

[haidut]

Actually, there is direct evidence that vitamin E is natriuretic (increases sodium excretion). I have not read the study but the dosage they used was equivalent to 1000mg-1200mg per day.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15527070
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2243243/

"...Our findings suggested that γ-Toc increased sodium excretion in a dose-dependent manner in rats fed a NaCl diet. Moreover, a high dose of γ-Toc may accelerate its metabolism and cause an increase in the rate of sodium excretion."

I have not read the studies, so not sure if this is due to higher progesterone. But you are right that vitamin E has "progesterone-sparing" and "progesterone-like" activity. The study I posted on vitamin E and aromatase describes it as a progesterone-lie agent.

 

[j.]

Definitely noticed it the last few days when I was megadosing both progesterone and vitamin E (topically). Good times.

(Side topic, I also used pregnenolone to try to keep the hormonal balance and a bit of K2 to keep the balance with E)

 

[j.]

It's interesting that it's gamma tocopherol that has that effect.

It makes you want to figure out which tocopherol specifically does an effect attributed to vitamin E.

Vitamin E reduces the risk of calcium oxalate kidney stones in rats. Is it the alpha or the gamma tocopherol that does that?

Alpha tocopherol alone apparently creates bone problems in rats (this was posted in the last few days). Would natural mixed tocopherols (with alpha and gamma) avoid that negative effect?

 

[haidut]

It's interesting that it's gamma tocopherol that has that effect.

It makes you want to figure out which tocopherol specifically does an effect attributed to vitamin E.

Vitamin E reduces the risk of calcium oxalate kidney stones in rats. Is it the alpha or the gamma tocopherol that does that?

Alpha tocopherol alone apparently creates bone problems in rats (this was posted in the last few days). Would natural mixed tocopherols (with alpha and gamma) avoid that negative effect?

It seems that mixed tocopherols and totrienols have some studies behind them about helping prevent osteoporosis, so it might be just the alpha tocopherol doing the damage.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23536191
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... mal_Models

Btw, there was a study posted on the forum that showed high doses of vitamin E as alpha tocopherol depleted vitamin K2, so that would explain the bad effects on bones.

 

[j.]

Btw, there was a study posted on the forum that showed high doses of vitamin E as alpha tocopherol depleted vitamin K2, so that would explain the bad effects on bones.

Ok, so high alpha tocopherol depletes K2. Do high mixed tocopherols deplete K2?

I seem to want to take more of the K2 supplement when I supplement E even with mixed tocopherols.

 

[haidut]

Btw, there was a study posted on the forum that showed high doses of vitamin E as alpha tocopherol depleted vitamin K2, so that would explain the bad effects on bones.

Ok, so high alpha tocopherol depletes K2. Do high mixed tocopherols deplete K2?

I seem to want to take more of the K2 supplement when I supplement E even with mixed tocopherols.

The study I saw was some time ago. I thin it said alpha tocopherol depleted most, but the mix also depleted it. Maybe deplete is a bad word. Since vitamin E thins the blood more vitamin K2 is used for that function instead of focusing on getting calcium out of the cells and into the bones. So it depletes it functionallly - i.e. less vitamin K2 left to do its primary job.
Btw, it seems that high doses of vitamin E are NOT that bad, minus the interaction with vitamin K. The stud below also boosts the claim that beyond a certain intake vitamin E is just not utilized.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 151434.htm

 

[j.]

I posted recently that there seems to be a limit in the amount of alpha tocopherol in measurements in plasma. At a certain point the blood level doesn't increase with higher intake.

 

[haidut]

I posted recently that there seems to be a limit in the amount of alpha tocopherol in measurements in plasma. At a certain point the blood level doesn't increase with higher intake.

Btw, after digging into it some more I think that there are several things at play here and vitamin E depletes vitamin K only superficially, and only in case where a person relies on K1 to get their daily need of K2.
First tings first, it looks like alpha tocopherol is the form that is most likely to cause bleeding events.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7867999

"...These results suggest that the four naturally occurring tocopherols have a tendency to cause haemorrhage in the order of alpha > beta > gamma > delta, and ubiquinone Q-10 and beta-carotene als0o have relatively strong and weak haemorrhagic effects, respectively, with regard to prothrombin and partial thromboplastin time indices."

Second, the studies I found all report effects either directly on K1 status or K2 status but based only on K1 intake.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213041

"...An increase in PIVKA-II is indicative of poor vitamin K status. In contrast, the other measures of vitamin K status (ie, plasma phylloquinone concentration and percentage of ucOC) did not change significantly in response to the supplementation."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22707266

"...high tissue α-T depleted tissue MK-4 without significantly increasing urinary vitamin K metabolite excretion."

So, the above studies say that while it may appear that vitamin E depletes vitamin K, at best it is only true of K1 and also excretion did not increase but rather some measure of vitamin K activity in the body. For K2, only tissue levels decreased but excretion did not.

Finally, this study goes over the possible interactions of vitamin E and K, and concludes that we still don't know almost anything about the interactions and how K1 is converted into K2, so strong conclusions are not warranted at this time. I personally have never felt like vitamin E caused any issues for me when I supplemented directly with K2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19019024
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mar ... iewer=true