Vitamin D intake guidelines underestimated by a factor of 10

[EnoreeG]

haidut-
I've just recently been looking into the vitamin D area.
Sorry if this has already been discussed
but I think I heard Peat in a recent-ish interview
voice some possible doubt on what he referred to as "the activated form" of vitamin D.
Are you familiar with his views on that?

Also, suikerbuik--again, maybe also already aired, sorry--
has raised some possible doubts about vitamin D.
I believe the D3 form.
He points towards some views (forget the researcher's name now)
showing that high doses of D3 may negatively impact immunity.
Have you seen that and any thoughts?

Over the past year I've been struggling with a weird phenomenon where,
when I try to raise my T4/T3 (or just T3) up to doses where my temp/pulse are good,
I get pretty violent heart palpitations and racing.
My TSH during that time was down near zero,
taking 1&1/2 grain NDT (or cynoplus).

Just here in the last 3 months or so I've changed a lot of things,
amongst them,
adding a lot of calcium carbonate (like 1500mg/day) while discontinuing D3.
Been feeling modestly better.
Back pain better.
TSH 6.6 a couple weeks ago (and other thyroid markers show I need more thyroid).
Now bumping up thyroid dose slowly,
so far with no palpitation problems.

Don't know quite what to make of it.
Maybe parathyroid problems helped by calcium?
(Hadn't tested my parathyroid previously,
but in the recent testing after calcium & no D3
PTH was 41)

narouz, you mention adding to your calcium supplementation. Have you considered what your calcium/magnesium balance is? Most people these days are way more deficient in magnesium than in calcium, and that's a huge problem for calcium utilization (causing the diverting of calcium into your soft tissue instead of into your bones and teeth, but also making it impossible for calcium to move in and out of the mitochondria, which it must do for proper energy production).

In addition to the link I offered haidut above, check these links out. They may provide you with some more information to help your health:

http://my-magnesium.com/hormone-d.html

http://gotmag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/MAG-Booklet-Download.pdf

https://justmeint1health.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/boron-a-magical-mineral/

 

[narouz]

narouz, you mention adding to your calcium supplementation. Have you considered what your calcium/magnesium balance is? Most people these days are way more deficient in magnesium than in calcium, and that's a huge problem for calcium utilization (causing the diverting of calcium into your soft tissue instead of into your bones and teeth, but also making it impossible for calcium to move in and out of the mitochondria, which it must do for proper energy production).

In addition to the link I offered haidut above, check these links out. They may provide you with some more information to help your health:

http://my-magnesium.com/hormone-d.html

http://gotmag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/MAG-Booklet-Download.pdf

https://justmeint1health.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/boron-a-magical-mineral/

EnoreeG-
Yeah...magnesium was the first thing I thought of long ago
when I first started getting the palpitations.
It is usually the first supp Peat will mention
when asked about palpitations and thyroid issues.

But...
When I tried adding more magnesium
(and many different forms)
it didn't seem to affect the palpitations that I could tell.
Plus it often gave me diarrhea,
even from the supposedly gut-friendly forms.

Calcium is just something I never thought about in the context of my difficulties.
I have some muscle cramping,
so I thought surely...gotta be magnesium deficiency.
According to Peat
the magnesium is the muscle relaxer
while the calcium is the muscle exciter.
Probably oversimplified and perhaps mangled...but that's the gist from Peat.

With all the cheese/milk I eat
it never crossed my mind that I would be low on calcium.

Here recently, a few months back, when I started experimenting with supplemental calcium,
I was doing so more within a broader notion of
Calcium:Phosphate ratio,
which Peat is very big on.
I remembered that my problems started about the time
I started a pattern of having a small steak, coconut oil french fries, and a Coke for evening meal.
That's a bad ratio,
and also Peat says to try to eat the bulk of your protein in the morning or afternoon.

So I was more trying to revamp my Calcium to Phosphate ratio
than to strictly just add more calcium...

Thanks for those study links, EnoreeG!
I will peruse!

 

[narouz]

Cool, thanks.
Yeah, I also posted an epidemiological study showing that people with both the higher and lowest blood levels of vitamin D has the higher mortality. Optimal range for health seemed to be 30-45. Vitamin D3 is converted into calcitriol in the body. At least that's how the theory goes. If Peat has some studies showing this is not the case or calcitriol is not valualble in some way then I'd very interested in reading them. It would change 40 years of vitamin D research but knowing Peat I would not be surprised if that turned out to be the case.
I personally take 3,000 IU and always combine it with A, K, and E.

Thanks for the thoughts, haidut!
I'll try to find the source of the Peat views I noted.
Are you calling calcitriol the "activated form" of vitamin D, then?

 

[narouz]

Here is another link sent to me by suikerbuik.
It contains more of those doubtful views on D3...
or at least high levels of supplemented D3.

http://www.mommypotamus.com/why-vitamin-d-supplements-cant-replace-sunshine/

 

[haidut]

Cool, thanks.
Yeah, I also posted an epidemiological study showing that people with both the higher and lowest blood levels of vitamin D has the higher mortality. Optimal range for health seemed to be 30-45. Vitamin D3 is converted into calcitriol in the body. At least that's how the theory goes. If Peat has some studies showing this is not the case or calcitriol is not valualble in some way then I'd very interested in reading them. It would change 40 years of vitamin D research but knowing Peat I would not be surprised if that turned out to be the case.
I personally take 3,000 IU and always combine it with A, K, and E.

Thanks for the thoughts, haidut!
I'll try to find the source of the Peat views I noted.
Are you calling calcitriol the "activated form" of vitamin D, then?

Yes, medical people call calcitriol the activated form of vitamin D.

 

[EnoreeG]

narouz, you mention adding to your calcium supplementation. Have you considered what your calcium/magnesium balance is? Most people these days are way more deficient in magnesium than in calcium, and that's a huge problem for calcium utilization (causing the diverting of calcium into your soft tissue instead of into your bones and teeth, but also making it impossible for calcium to move in and out of the mitochondria, which it must do for proper energy production).

In addition to the link I offered haidut above, check these links out. They may provide you with some more information to help your health:

http://my-magnesium.com/hormone-d.html

http://gotmag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/MAG-Booklet-Download.pdf

https://justmeint1health.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/boron-a-magical-mineral/

EnoreeG-
Yeah...magnesium was the first thing I thought of long ago
when I first started getting the palpitations.
It is usually the first supp Peat will mention
when asked about palpitations and thyroid issues.

But...
When I tried adding more magnesium
(and many different forms)
it didn't seem to affect the palpitations that I could tell.
Plus it often gave me diarrhea,
even from the supposedly gut-friendly forms.

Calcium is just something I never thought about in the context of my difficulties.
I have some muscle cramping,
so I thought surely...gotta be magnesium deficiency.
According to Peat
the magnesium is the muscle relaxer
while the calcium is the muscle exciter.
Probably oversimplified and perhaps mangled...but that's the gist from Peat.

With all the cheese/milk I eat
it never crossed my mind that I would be low on calcium.

Here recently, a few months back, when I started experimenting with supplemental calcium,
I was doing so more within a broader notion of
Calcium:Phosphate ratio,
which Peat is very big on.
I remembered that my problems started about the time
I started a pattern of having a small steak, coconut oil french fries, and a Coke for evening meal.
That's a bad ratio,
and also Peat says to try to eat the bulk of your protein in the morning or afternoon.

So I was more trying to revamp my Calcium to Phosphate ratio
than to strictly just add more calcium...

Thanks for those study links, EnoreeG!
I will peruse!

It sounds like you were trying different oral forms of magnesium. Very many people report problems with those (indigestion, diarrhea, etc.). And many studies report problems in utilization (or contraindications) with different oral forms. There's a big discussion going on as we speak on the "Iodine-OT" Yahoo group regarding magnesium. Check it out if you want testimonies to infinity on how oral magnesium is a bother in any larger dose.

The consensus about how to get magnesium that will actually stay in you, seems to be topical or trans-dermal. I'd check that out if I were you. I buy Magnesium Chloride flakes and mix up a solution that I can spray on any time. It's weaker than the recommended "magnesium oil" so that it isn't oily, isn't stingy, and leaves no residue. I use it after a shower, or any time I'm in the bathroom where I keep the spray bottle. Just hit my face and arms if that's all that's available. This is a lot more efficient on time than trying to soak in a tub of epsom salts now and then.

 

[EnoreeG]

I got tested for vitamin D for both 25(OH)D and 1,25(OH)2D3. MY 25OH was on a severe deficit, but my was 1,25OH was near mid range (somewhat decent). Should I even supplement? I don't get any sunlight so I guess the reason im on half range with 1,25OH is due the vitamin D on my diet. Im still worried that 25OH shows severe deficit, but isn't 1,25OH levels all that matters? thats the active metabolite at the end of the day.
The thing is, my doctor (and all doctors as far as I know) only checks for 25OH, so if he told me to get on vitamin D, they also give you liquid D2 for some reason at least in Europe. The dose is also too high, so I was worried about hypercalcemia and didn't take it. They have never tested me for any other vitamin that isn't D and they onl test 25OH, the cheap bastards.

Anyway let me know what I should do about this. For starters I should get more time in the sun, but im too tired to go out usually.

High 1,25OH and low 25OH is a classic sign of calcium deficiency. Are you eating enough calcium? Have you had your PTH levels checked?
When you don't eat enough calcium the body raises PTH levels, which stimulates conversion of 25OH into 1,25OH to increase calcium absorption from the intestine. Btw, you don't want 1,25OH to become too high - it is a marker of several unpleasant diseases. So, I'd suggest asking the doctor for testing PTH and if it is above 20 asking for some vitamin D3 at no more than 5,000 IU daily for a month. In combination with that, I'd raise calcium intake to at least 600mg - 700mg daily, and 1,000mg would be much much better. If it is calcium deficiency, in about a month 25OH will be higher, 1,25OH will be lower, PTH will be lower and metabolism should be better.
Btw, in a calcium deficiency state the body sometimes raises prolactin, so you may want to get that one checked too.

haidut, like narouz, I have questions on this last advice, as well as some of your other remarks. Lastly, you are saying "1,250H increases calcium absorption from the intestine". I suggest you might wish to say "1,250H is responsible for absorption from the intestine". It is misleading if you say it "increases" calcium absorption, because that implies, the more you have of 1,250H, the more calcium you absorb. According to this following study, that is definitely not true, and as the 1,250H increases to an elevated level, you will have the opposite situation due to the limiting effect on the vitamin D receptors (VDR):

"1,25(OH)2D up-regulates the VDR in the small intestine, which then transcribes genes that shuttle calcium and phosphorus through the intestinal epithelium. However, mucosal response and calcium/phosphorus absorption are dependent on a competent VDR and elevated 1,25(OH)2D reduces VDR competence [51]. Thus, calcium and phosphorus absorption may be inhibited if VDR function is impaired by elevated 1,25(OH)2D. This is illustrated by Abreu et al. [52] in a study of Crohn’s patients with elevated 1,25(OH)2D and low bone mineral density which concluded that treatment of the underlying inflammation would improve metabolic bone disease. In fact, there is ample evidence that elevated 1,25(OH)2D leads to bone loss."


Here's the link mentioning the study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4160567/

Like narouz, I discontinued D3 supplements long ago. I actually consider the supplements at least useless, and potentially dangerous (for my case). For proper mineral balancing, I think whole foods are key, from which I can get magnesium and boron which are critical for calcium utilization. Not that I ignore the value of the other fat soluble vitamins, but I get those also from whole foods.

I am interested in your take on the linked article. Faults? Oversights? Valid?

You don't take any supplements/vitamins? How does your diet look like to get all the stuff from food only?
I've also heard vitamin D3 supplementation can be a big mistake in some cases, still don't know when it's and isn't a good idea to supplement tho. From what I understood from some reading, you don't really need supplementation when your 1,25 seems to be on range. It's still interesting that I get a severe OH25 deficit, probably because I haven't had any decent sunlight in ages.

Really good question! It definitely needs some explaining, what with the modern-day, alternative health assumption that supplements are almost required for adequate health, right?

I've been refining my diet for about 40 years, since I discovered I was diabetic in the '70's. The more I read, the more I learn. I've also been gardening and sometimes raising my own chickens many of those years. I was on supplements all that time, and from even before that. Yes, the supps change, but they were there.

Now I'm retired and in fairly remarkable health and I have time to put a couple of hours into my organic garden most days. About 7 months ago I decided to see what just organic food could do to maintain the good health I've gained from taking everything from A to Zinc. So I went off supplements, including Mg, D3, ALA, B-complex and about a dozen other things. I live off the veggies from my garden, only buying what isn't in season, like tomatoes in the Winter. Almost everything I buy is organic. I thought I might see some signs of a "deficiency". Especially vitamin A, which my body has proven it is poor at deriving from carotene. No problems so far. The only effect I've noticed from going off supps is I immediately started sleeping almost 8 hours at night. Something I'd never accomplished except rarely my whole life. That's it.

I don't eat refined foods. The closest I come to eating something considered "refined" is olive oil, butter, and cheese. I admit those are still processed foods.

I eat a mix of veggies and meats, with minimal dairy (only butter and a little cheese), minimal roots/tubers, and almost no grains, and very few nuts and fruits. This is a diet I've evolved toward over the years. I have a tremendously healthy gut, and apparently good immunity. Only 3 years ago I was eating oatmeal for breakfast. I've replaced that with a few fresh munchies from the garden and an ample (5 oz?) plate of steamed greens with butter. Some days, there's a couple of eggs added to that. Lunch is a salad. All veggies except for some feta cheese. Dinner is more traditional. That's when my meat and possibly some starch may come in, as a sweet potato, or carrots. I don't eat fruit out of season except an apple after dinner sometimes. I grow blueberries, so I eat those in season. Otherwise, I'm totally off foods that taste sweet. But I eat lots of things that taste bitter, like weeds (dock, dandelion, Good King Henry, pig weed, lambs quarter, etc.).

So, to summarize, I'd say my diet is, by design (not Peat's choices, but mine) exceptionally nutrient dense, and fresh, and lacking empty calories. I tend to think of eating to keep my gut microbes happy, and relying on them to keep me healthy. It seems to be working.

Yeah, I may be weird. Obviously, I eat to live, and live well. I don't live to eat. But I still enjoy my food.

 

[narouz]

The consensus about how to get magnesium that will actually stay in you, seems to be topical or trans-dermal. I'd check that out if I were you. I buy Magnesium Chloride flakes and mix up a solution that I can spray on any time. It's weaker than the recommended "magnesium oil" so that it isn't oily, isn't stingy, and leaves no residue. I use it after a shower, or any time I'm in the bathroom where I keep the spray bottle. Just hit my face and arms if that's all that's available. This is a lot more efficient on time than trying to soak in a tub of epsom salts now and then.

Yeah...maybe half a year ago or so
I found a blog online which described how
simply mixing epsom salts with water,
putting it in a spray bottle,
and spraying on the skin
is just as effective and way cheaper than "magnesium oil."

So I tried that too.
Couldn't tell much of nuthin' from that or all the other magnesiums I tried....

 

[EnoreeG]

The consensus about how to get magnesium that will actually stay in you, seems to be topical or trans-dermal. I'd check that out if I were you. I buy Magnesium Chloride flakes and mix up a solution that I can spray on any time. It's weaker than the recommended "magnesium oil" so that it isn't oily, isn't stingy, and leaves no residue. I use it after a shower, or any time I'm in the bathroom where I keep the spray bottle. Just hit my face and arms if that's all that's available. This is a lot more efficient on time than trying to soak in a tub of epsom salts now and then.

Yeah...maybe half a year ago or so
I found a blog online which described how
simply mixing epsom salts with water,
putting it in a spray bottle,
and spraying on the skin
is just as effective and way cheaper than "magnesium oil."

So I tried that too.
Couldn't tell much of nuthin' from that or all the other magnesiums I tried....

This isn't scientific, but my marker for "sufficient" magnesium is that I mustn't have leg cramps and I shouldn't have signs of calcium getting into soft tissue. That could be demonstrated by hypertension (my BP is actually as low as 50 years ago: 118/78 is typical). There are a lot of symptoms of magnesium deficiency. I just don't have these things. I rarely have a headache and when I do, it lasts about 5 minutes at the most. I have no idea though what my bone density is, or any other measurement of magnesium except I did have a hair analysis about 4 years ago. That measured at 63 ug/g, near the upper end of the reference range, or about the 70th percentile for the population.

I guess I thank my liberal use of vegetables for food as the reason I have sufficient magnesium now, though I was also taking magnesium (but not calcium) supplements when that hair test was done.

Good luck on bringing your minerals into balance. If raising your magnesium intake doesn't change things for the better, it must be something else that is confounding the situation. Could be dozens of things, from toxins to other mineral imbalances.

 

[Dean]

Dudes! Mag bicarb water fever. Catch it!

 

[narouz]

Dudes! Mag bicarb water fever. Catch it!

Yeah...I've been reading that.
Gonna have to try it, Dean.

 

[emmanceb]

Vitamin A does not cause hypercalcemia, it actually lowers it. This is another myth propagated by pharma companies. Vitamin A in higher doses inhibits the conversion of vitamin D into the activated vitamin D (calcitriol). This thread has a study showing that vitamin A lowers calcium and increases phosphorus in rats treated with vitamin D, and in higher doses blocked the effects of vitamin D completely.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5809
If you know of direct supplementation studies that show hypercalcemia effects of vitamin A, please post them.

Thanks for clarifying, I know of no studies.

I may have been misattributing some symptoms to vitamin A however they have been resolved.

 

[haidut]

Vitamin A does not cause hypercalcemia, it actually lowers it. This is another myth propagated by pharma companies. Vitamin A in higher doses inhibits the conversion of vitamin D into the activated vitamin D (calcitriol). This thread has a study showing that vitamin A lowers calcium and increases phosphorus in rats treated with vitamin D, and in higher doses blocked the effects of vitamin D completely.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5809
If you know of direct supplementation studies that show hypercalcemia effects of vitamin A, please post them.

Thanks for clarifying, I know of no studies.

I may have been misattributing some symptoms to vitamin A however they have been resolved.

I think you may have seen or heard something in the popular media or even told by a doctor. It is very popular myth even among medical professionals that vitamin A hypercalcemia somehow but all the studies have come back negative and the one I posted above shows that vitamin A even blocks the effect. However, vitamin A in higher doses can suppress your thyroid and that can lead to bone problems.

 

[emmanceb]

Vitamin A does not cause hypercalcemia, it actually lowers it. This is another myth propagated by pharma companies. Vitamin A in higher doses inhibits the conversion of vitamin D into the activated vitamin D (calcitriol). This thread has a study showing that vitamin A lowers calcium and increases phosphorus in rats treated with vitamin D, and in higher doses blocked the effects of vitamin D completely.
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5809
If you know of direct supplementation studies that show hypercalcemia effects of vitamin A, please post them.

Thanks for clarifying, I know of no studies.

I may have been misattributing some symptoms to vitamin A however they have been resolved.

I think you may have seen or heard something in the popular media or even told by a doctor. It is very popular myth even among medical professionals that vitamin A hypercalcemia somehow but all the studies have come back negative and the one I posted above shows that vitamin A even blocks the effect. However, vitamin A in higher doses can suppress your thyroid and that can lead to bone problems.

Yes it was a commonly listed symptom of vitamin A toxicity on mainstream medicine websites, I was on the hunt for a scapegoat and one was provided

 

[XPlus]

There's something I wanted to get your opinion of, Haidut.
Although I'm supposedly deficient, vitamin D is the least effective of the fat soluble vitamins in my experience.
I feel indifferent to taking it.
Why do you think is that?

Couple of possible reasons I can think of.
1. Your PTH may already be low enough that you don't get any benefit from extra vitamin D.
2. Impaired conversion of vitamin D into calcitriol (the active vitamin D capable of activating the VDR).
3. Insufficient intake or imbalance in the other fat-soluble vitamins, especially vitamin A and K. For instance, if vitamin A is too low or too high it would either make vitamin D toxic or block its action altogether. Also, low vitamin K decreases the ability of calcitriol to activate VDR.
4. Many people deficient in vitamin D experience no relief until their levels reach at least 35. Some people with diabetes and heart disease need levels of 50+ to feel better. Again, achieving these levels is not easy and potentially harmful if vitamin D is taken on its own. Always combine with A and K, unless you have blood tests showing A and K are high and do not need supplementing.

Just my 2c.

These are very valuable insights.
Thank you, now I have few things to research and experiment with.

 

[narouz]

haidut-
If I wanted to do lab tests for vitamins A, D & K,
what are the best tests?

Do you have a preferred online service?
Maybe one that offers a combo test?

 

[haidut]

haidut-
If I wanted to do lab tests for vitamins A, D & K,
what are the best tests?

Do you have a preferred online service?
Maybe one that offers a combo test?

www.directlabs.com has vitamin tests and includes A, D, K, and E. However for vitamin K I think they measure only K1, so in addition to that test you may want to get the extended K Assay, since it measures undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) which is effectively the activity of K2 in the bone. So, these two combined will probably suffice.
https://www.directlabs.com/TestDetail.aspx?testid=1263
https://www.directlabs.com/TestDetail.aspx?testid=1084

As you can see, it ain't cheap though

 

[narouz]

haidut-
If I wanted to do lab tests for vitamins A, D & K,
what are the best tests?

Do you have a preferred online service?
Maybe one that offers a combo test?

http://www.directlabs.com has vitamin tests and includes A, D, K, and E. However for vitamin K I think they measure only K1, so in addition to that test you may want to get the extended K Assay, since it measures undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) which is effectively the activity of K2 in the bone. So, these two combined will probably suffice.
https://www.directlabs.com/TestDetail.aspx?testid=1263
https://www.directlabs.com/TestDetail.aspx?testid=1084

As you can see, it ain't cheap though

Thanks, haidut.
Maybe I'll start with the D, 25 Hydroxy test and go from there as needed.
I see that the vitamin A test requires 2 days without consuming anything with vitamin A, plus fasting.

 

[haidut]

haidut-
If I wanted to do lab tests for vitamins A, D & K,
what are the best tests?

Do you have a preferred online service?
Maybe one that offers a combo test?

http://www.directlabs.com has vitamin tests and includes A, D, K, and E. However for vitamin K I think they measure only K1, so in addition to that test you may want to get the extended K Assay, since it measures undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) which is effectively the activity of K2 in the bone. So, these two combined will probably suffice.
https://www.directlabs.com/TestDetail.aspx?testid=1263
https://www.directlabs.com/TestDetail.aspx?testid=1084

As you can see, it ain't cheap though

Thanks, haidut.
Maybe I'll start with the D, 25 Hydroxy test and go from there as needed.
I see that the vitamin A test requires 2 days without consuming anything with vitamin A, plus fasting.

Except for the part of not consuming vitamin A before the test I don't think any of the tests that say fasting required actually have a legitimate reason for that. If anything, fasting in a hypothyroid person will trigger a big stress cascade and throw off a number of biomarkers. Anyways, if you do end up getting the full vitamin K test let me know how it went. I have never tested my K2 levels and would be curious to hear some feedback on those tests.

 

[miko]

I have my test for vit D from today - it's 6,3 ng/ml. It's bad?