Vitamin C

johnsmith

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"California Gold Nutrition" has a 1,000 mg capsule and a 500 mg capsule. Which strength would you people recommend/prefer to dose with throughout the day?
 

Travis

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'During storage, the vitamin C content of orange juice gradually decreased at a rate depending on processing, storage temperature and packaging. When polypropylene bottles were used, ascorbic acid loss (at constant storage temperature) was found to follow apparent first-order kinetics (Eq. (1)) for both high pressure and conventionally pasteurised orange juice as depicted in Fig. 1(a) and (b) respectively.' ―Polydera

I found a study which has rates of vitamin C loss in orange juice, allowing you to estimate the levels by the date on the container.

'In the case of laminated flexible pouches, ascorbic acid degradation again followed first-order kinetics (Eq. (1)) until a reduction of about 20% of the initial ascorbic acid concentration.' ―Polydera

There's two separate equations and rate constants, the second to estimate the losses after it reaches 20% if its original value.

vitaminc5.png click to embiggen: Chart demonstrating temporal losses of vitamin C in orange juice at four storage temperatures.

These concentrations are around 40 milligrams per 100 grams, or 4oo·ppm. The dried berry powders are around forty times this concentration.

 

InChristAlone

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I found this study several months ago and completely forgot. I think this should put everyone's fears to rest. And refutes Peat's in vitro claims.

"There persists in medical literature the idea that vitamin C, acting as a reducing agent, causes reactions with iron (and other metals) that generate damaging free radicals. These free radicals then go on to produce oxidative damage to cells and molecules, the products of which can be measured in blood tests. The idea goes that vitamin C is a powerful reducing agent which reduces Fe (III) to Fe(II), the reduced iron then participates in the Fenton reaction which produces hydroxyl radicals. A considerable amount of literature can be found that links these ideas together, and the obvious conclusion reached by most of these researchers is a warning not to take vitamin C with metals and not to take vitamin C in iron overloaded conditions (e.g. haemochromatosis).

While these arguments on the surface are alarming and appear convincing, they must of course stack up against clinical observations to be valid. The fact is they don't. The fact is that literally millions of people have taken or been administered very high doses of vitamin C, even considerable numbers of patients with iron overload disorders, and none of these people has ever rusted. None of these patients have ever demonstrated damage to DNA or any other cells or tissues (except cancer cells) by any valid test. If you have any doubt about this, try and find cases in the medical literature.

What emerges from this is that the conclusions drawn by various researchers into the vitamin C/metal connection are largely based on flawed evidence. If a conclusion does not tie in with clinical observations, then there is something wrong.

Without fail, the methods underpinning the vitamin C/Fenton paranoia are in vitro methods, i.e. isolated tissue cultures and blood samples exposed to the air. These methods inevitably produce results that are not necessarily related, if related at all, to in vivo conditions. There is a considerable amount of in vivo research into this vitamin C/Fenton question. Without fail, in vivo research has NEVER been able to demonstrate that vitamin C is dangerous because of Fenton like reactions. Without fail, in vivo research ALWAYS demonstrates a
positive effect of vitamin C on oxidative markers and damage in tissues.

Without fail, unless extreme care is taken, every time vitamin C is added to blood samples (and urine samples) outside the body there are a whole host of oxidative products and markers produced. These are IN VITRO ARTEFACTS.

The real nail in the coffin for the Fenton idea is that almost every living higher organism on earth, plant or animal, makes its own vitamin C. Some animals and
plants make enormous amounts of vitamin C (compared to what a human living in Western culture gets daily). These organisms have been exposed to metals right
throughout evolution and they have not disappeared due to oxidative damage wrought by vitamin C.


There are enough clinical runs on the board for vitamin C to be able to make prescribing decisions based on prior clinical use. Positive clinical outcomes are just that they cannot be undone by unfavourable press releases."
 

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What-a-Riot

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"...none of these people has ever rusted..."
a weary smile from the author as they wrote this one, i'm sure
 

yerrag

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I found this study several months ago and completely forgot. I think this should put everyone's fears to rest. And refutes Peat's in vitro claims.

"There persists in medical literature the idea that vitamin C, acting as a reducing agent, causes reactions with iron (and other metals) that generate damaging free radicals. These free radicals then go on to produce oxidative damage to cells and molecules, the products of which can be measured in blood tests. The idea goes that vitamin C is a powerful reducing agent which reduces Fe (III) to Fe(II), the reduced iron then participates in the Fenton reaction which produces hydroxyl radicals. A considerable amount of literature can be found that links these ideas together, and the obvious conclusion reached by most of these researchers is a warning not to take vitamin C with metals and not to take vitamin C in iron overloaded conditions (e.g. haemochromatosis).

While these arguments on the surface are alarming and appear convincing, they must of course stack up against clinical observations to be valid. The fact is they don't. The fact is that literally millions of people have taken or been administered very high doses of vitamin C, even considerable numbers of patients with iron overload disorders, and none of these people has ever rusted. None of these patients have ever demonstrated damage to DNA or any other cells or tissues (except cancer cells) by any valid test. If you have any doubt about this, try and find cases in the medical literature.

What emerges from this is that the conclusions drawn by various researchers into the vitamin C/metal connection are largely based on flawed evidence. If a conclusion does not tie in with clinical observations, then there is something wrong.

Without fail, the methods underpinning the vitamin C/Fenton paranoia are in vitro methods, i.e. isolated tissue cultures and blood samples exposed to the air. These methods inevitably produce results that are not necessarily related, if related at all, to in vivo conditions. There is a considerable amount of in vivo research into this vitamin C/Fenton question. Without fail, in vivo research has NEVER been able to demonstrate that vitamin C is dangerous because of Fenton like reactions. Without fail, in vivo research ALWAYS demonstrates a
positive effect of vitamin C on oxidative markers and damage in tissues.

Without fail, unless extreme care is taken, every time vitamin C is added to blood samples (and urine samples) outside the body there are a whole host of oxidative products and markers produced. These are IN VITRO ARTEFACTS.

The real nail in the coffin for the Fenton idea is that almost every living higher organism on earth, plant or animal, makes its own vitamin C. Some animals and
plants make enormous amounts of vitamin C (compared to what a human living in Western culture gets daily). These organisms have been exposed to metals right
throughout evolution and they have not disappeared due to oxidative damage wrought by vitamin C.


There are enough clinical runs on the board for vitamin C to be able to make prescribing decisions based on prior clinical use. Positive clinical outcomes are just that they cannot be undone by unfavourable press releases."

This is very helpful, Janelle. Thanks!

I got back from a 5-day vacation in Bangkok with friends. During that time, I skipped my daily protocol of 7 g of ascorbic acid and 4.8 grams of magnesium chloride, more out of convenience than to give myself a break.

I was surprised to see my blood pressure drop from 190/120 to 155/106. My pulse went up from 62 to 85. I only took about 1,000 mg of Emergen-C each day during that time, there was plenty of walking, and plenty of fun. I also slept soundly. I can't explain it, but the break sure did wonders. Around this time last year, my blood pressure was at 215/135. I started on magnesium and vitamin C at the start of November (which meant all my efforts in between came up empty), when my blood pressure was still at 215/135, and right around Christmas, by blood pressure had stayed stuck at around 180/120.

I hope 155/106 becomes my blood pressure norm for now, and I'll be nearer my target of 120/80. That the lower blood pressure came with a higher pulse is an added plus. The vitamin C and the magnesium must be doing their job of chelating lead out of my system. And the increase in magnesium stores must be aiding metabolism, giving how important magnesium is to ATP, and the increase in magnesium stores must be helping increasing my potassium retention, and this may also be allowing for an increase of blood volume.

A lot of this has to do with magnesium, but without vitamin C, the magnesium would have been half as effective.
 

Rand56

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I decided to re-visit taking some Vit. C. Started a couple weeks ago averaging about 2 grams of ascorbic acid per day. I've wanted to push up my dose, and out of convenience, rather than splitting up my doses more during the day, on a few different occasions when I have taken approx. 2 grams at once, I experience some additional anxiety, which lasts a couple hours before it starts fading away. Nothing unbearable, just uncomfortable. Anyone else experience some anxiety if you take too much at once? I suppose everyone is different in their tolerable amounts, but just wondering if anyone knows what is going on with the additional anxiety I experience. No anxiety at all when I do 1 grams twice per day. I just need more magnesium?
 

Frankdee20

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"California Gold Nutrition" has a 1,000 mg capsule and a 500 mg capsule. Which strength would you people recommend/prefer to dose with throughout the day?

The problem I’ve noticed with these food grade C products is the notable ones seem to include unnecessary things like enzymes and probiotics to an otherwise good formula.

I use a powder from acerola cherry by Truly Natural. It supplies 240 mg of Vitamin C per teaspoon.

Pure synergy makes a powder as well derived from fruit and vegetables. It’s decently made.
 

sladerunner69

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Ah, I’ve been waiting my entire life for a death cult. I’m sorry, but your saying I’m better off without any ascorbate ? It helps maintain the integrity of my capillaries, it helps maintain collagen synthesis, it helps synthesize cetacholamines... Telling me it’s bad is like telling a liberal MSNBC isn’t biased.

Don't you mean it's like telling a liberal msnbc IS biased? Also, when I tried smoking tobbaco I noticed my skin drastically becoming dried out and produce lines. Definitely not collagen producing, probably because it smoking inhibits the C-amp enzyme.
 

Mito

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You are what you Eat, 2014 Herb doctors

Q: And this again is that red compound that you've mentioned in the past that is energetic favorable in terms of its...both, electron quenching activity and its anti-inflammatory activity.

RP: As sort of a side-line to my research in graduate school on what causes oxidative metabolism to go down with aging, I would look for all kinds of plants and animals that were colored and do extracts and look for things that simulated oxidative metabolism. And I got the interest partly from Szent-Györgyi's work - he found that the color of cells is closely connected to the oxidative process. For example, the deep maroon or purple color of the liver and certain areas of the brain are deeply pigmented - he knew that it didn't have any of the usual functions of pigment, and he found that it was related to...well, he knew that semiconductors are generally black because of a peculiar electronic arrangement that causes them to absorb all the light that hits them, and he figured that the life process involves semi-conduction, and so pigments are especially relevant to the use of energy in living things.

I think last month we were talking about Methylene Blue, that's an artificial electron transporter, and it can...like vitamin C, vitamin C in its normal form isn't a pigment but it has some of those same electronic behaviors. Both of those can pick up electrons from nutrients such as glucose and pass them into the mitochondrion even if the first two units of the mitochondrion are damaged - Methylene Blue and vitamin C and probably many other natural pigments can deliver energy electrons down to the third complex of the mitochondrion and allow it to keep functioning even after serious damage. So part that function is to stop producing free radicals which are mostly produced in the upper part of the electron transport chain as its being damaged.
 

yerrag

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You are what you Eat, 2014 Herb doctors

Q: And this again is that red compound that you've mentioned in the past that is energetic favorable in terms of its...both, electron quenching activity and its anti-inflammatory activity.

RP: As sort of a side-line to my research in graduate school on what causes oxidative metabolism to go down with aging, I would look for all kinds of plants and animals that were colored and do extracts and look for things that simulated oxidative metabolism. And I got the interest partly from Szent-Györgyi's work - he found that the color of cells is closely connected to the oxidative process. For example, the deep maroon or purple color of the liver and certain areas of the brain are deeply pigmented - he knew that it didn't have any of the usual functions of pigment, and he found that it was related to...well, he knew that semiconductors are generally black because of a peculiar electronic arrangement that causes them to absorb all the light that hits them, and he figured that the life process involves semi-conduction, and so pigments are especially relevant to the use of energy in living things.
If you take care of koi, you will notice that a sick koi will quickly lose the saturation and vibrance of its color. You will know if a koi is well cared for by how its health finds expression in its skin colors. This expression of health is less evident in humans, but you can still see it in a glow in that person.
 

InChristAlone

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Likely the best there is, is quali-C. Too expensive for me. I'm still doing the china made.
 

yerrag

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Likely the best there is, is quali-C. Too expensive for me. I'm still doing the china made.

I'd like to make my own Liposomal C, but I just haven't gotten around to sourcing out the lecithin granules. I have the read a thread at the Vitamin C Foundation forum but it's a very long thread. Liposomal C is expensive, so making my own liposomal C would help with lowering the cost. Larger amounts of vitamin C can be absorbed with liposomal C as compared to vitamin C. Although it's said that an ultrasonic cleaner is optional, I hope that is indeed the case when I get around to my first batch of liposomal C: Introduction

I take 7g of l-ascorbic acid powder daily, but I think that my vitamin c intake will be absorbed better with less being excreted through urine if I use liposomal C.
 

Amazoniac

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For those that are supplementing greater amounts, do you experience increased appetite after a vit C load? It might indicate excess iron/copper. Coffee might work in a similar manner.

Excess Copper as a Factor in Human Diseases
"zinc, manganese, molybdenum with vitamin C supplements reduce their copper burden"

Little zinc in relation to the others is associated with anorexia:
Adverse Effects of Zinc Deficiency: A Review from the Literature
"That zinc status might be directly related to anorexia and bulimarexia is not new.[132] Already in 1934 research described the clinical manifestations of zinc-deficient animals besides growth retardation, testicular atrophy, skin changes etc., also a poor appetite.[133] Other studies have shown that food consumption of zinc deprived rats decreased 30% compared to controls, and that force feeding of these zinc deprived animals rapidly induced signs of ill-health. Furthermore, that the animals responded to zinc supplementation within 1-2 hours with increased food intake.[134,135] It has been also known that symptoms of zinc deficiency in humans leads to mental depression, neurosis, sleep disturbances as well as to a reduction in appetite.[5,136] The idea that zinc might be directly related to anorexia nervosa was first hypothesized Bakan[137] and Horrobin.[138] However, Bryce-Smith and Simpson were the first to demonstrate a case in which anorexia nervosa was simply and effectively treated by oral zinc supplementation,[139] hence the interest by other researchers.[140-142] Zinc deficiency may indeed play the major role in the development of anorexia nervosa in adolescents because it leads invariably to a suppression of appetite, primarily due to an impairment of taste and smell sensitivity.[4,143-147] Zinc is essential for the taste perception because taste is mediated through a salivary zinc dependent polypeptide termed gustin, therefore low salivary zinc levels invariably leads to a reduction of taste, hence to a greatly reduced appetite.[4,106,132] Zinc depletion is particularly detrimental during adolescents due to an increased demand for most nutrients, including zinc. Investigators have also noted, that oral contraceptive use in female adolescents was liable to impair zinc status.[148,149] In addition, psychological and physical stresses tend paradoxically to increase the urinary loss of zinc.[3,4,148-150] As a consequence, when zinc levels decline, the impairment of zinc-dependent taste can be expected further to reduce the desire for food.[132]"

Eluv: Effects Of Stress And Trauma On The Body
"things that are lost specifically by high stress which are protein, zinc, some of the D vitamins are turned over very fast in stress so foods like liver and oysters and eggs, which are rich in the trace minerals"

endotoxin makes you absorb too much iron if... | Ray Peat Forum

An alternative to the massive vit C supplementation is to increase foods with those other trace minerals.
 

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