Vitamin C

[Perry Staltic]

No, it can damage your kidneys.

Myth

What Really Causes Kidney Stones (And Why Vitamin C Does Not)

orthomolecular.org

 

[Re.Generate]

I didn't say that. I said that after a certain point it should stop affecting trace minerals in a negative way.
It can still make the bowels move if you're at the imminence of intolerance.


Can you be a model and reply these then?


You reach very high intakes of vit C from those foods before having enough antinutrients from them. Same for Camu-Camu.


No comment on this as well, why he would stop at 1g most of the time?






If you give supplemental vit C to a congested person, a little excess worsens the person's congestion. If supplemental vit C always comes without negatives, how would you explain this characteristic worsening of stasis? Things should move on the right direction right away, no?

And just to recapitulate, I'm not against higher doses of vit C for therapeutic reasons, but not everyone needs those. I'm talking about unnecessary supplementation. I'm guessing most people need around 500-1000mg. Assuming that everyone needs at least 3g a day based on monkeys is delirium for the simple fact that it's not obtainable through foods, so the first thought that comes to mind is: some adaptation must have occurred along the way that allowed ourselves to deal with the inability to make our own. It's only in sickness that we probably fall short of it.

How many supercentenarians consume at least 3g? You can't reach that age living suboptimally. Examples of people living long supplementing vit C don't prove that everyone needs more of it since there are plenty of examples of people that never touched a C supplement living way more.

If supplements are likely contaminated and most people can get enough through foods, why bother supplementing if you were to maintain health?
Frank mentioned his reasons: to reduce costs and probably convenience. But if fruits were cheap and available, what he would choose?
And he uses food-based in reasonable amounts.

Calcirol - Liquid Supplement With Vitamin D3
By the way, that's the exact article that I left as comment in Nathan's article.

I realise this is very old now - and at the same wanted to respond to a point about why we should be supplementing something not obtainable through foods which makes no sense to me.

we also can’t obtain 100mg of thiamine through foods and yet many do - not to mention the insane amounts of sugar used by most on this forum.....the list goes ever on - surely part of the whole point here is that we are not living in our ancestors world anymore and require way more than them

 

[cjm]

Stolen from the work of zarrin:

- Effect of sodium chloride intake upon blood ascorbic acid level

"When about 7 g. of sodium chloride was added to each ordinary meal, the plasma ascorbic acid level dropped as in the case with rabbits (fig. 4). The accompanying increase in the basal metabolic rate might suggest that a similar mechanism comes into operation. It is remarkable that sodium chloride restriction on the other hand, increased the plasma ascorbic acid level in most subjects examined (table 2). The effect seemed to be pronounced in those subjects who have had previously low plasma ascorbic acid values."​

​

"The above mentioned effect of excessive sodium chloride administration both on the plasma ascorbic acid level and the basal metabolic rate was far less pronounced during hot summer season (fig. omitted). Moreover, as shown in fig. 4 administration of ascorbic acid was found to prevent the increase in the basal metabolic rate [??] and the elevation of arterial blood pressure due to excess salt. These phenomena might be explained as due to reduced central susceptibility to excess sodium ions under these conditions."​

Since Vit C is obviously such a central nutrient and vitamin, why have humans lost the ability to synthesize endogenously? Was there really a Time in out Evolution where vit c uptake was that abundant?

What if super efficient NaCl utilization has something to do with it? Thinking about that big ol' brain

 

[Amazoniac]

On vitamin C being a complex claim, this is the most elaborate attempt to convince that I could find, it was linked on a charlatan's website (of course):
- Quantitative analysis of vitamin C-complex | Dominique Richard

Posts #429 and #437 have relevant information.

---

There are people who use ascourgic acid for laxative purposes, some members are concerned about the contaminants because of Raj's warning. Larger doses of it will increase the ingestion of impurities present, but at the same time the laxation reduces the chances of absorbing them while clearing the microbial toxins along, chronic exposure to the toxins building up may be just as harmful (if not worse) than the impurities in the synthetic product. There are safe alternatives intended for this, but their effect isn't always reliable and their effectiveness appear to wear off with regular use.

 

[InChristAlone]

 

[LA]

Besides orange juice, does anyone supplement with vitamin C?

Ascorbic Acid has been a life saver for me and my family.
I cite this quote on occasion:
. . . synthetic ascorbic acid, identical with the Vitamin C in oranges and other foods. - - -Dr. Linus Pauling
(from "Life Extension, 1981 by Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw - Part IV: Nutrition and Life Extension pg. 361 Chapter 7 Vitamin C. pg 408)

 

[mad539]

How many of you notice a steep drop in cortisol after taking around 3-4gr of Vitamin C? I noticed that always when taking Vitamin C, i get extrem tired and fatigued, and even my voice gets quieter and fatigued. Is this normal? I'm taking L-(+)-ascorbic acid.

 

[InChristAlone]

How many of you notice a steep drop in cortisol after taking around 3-4gr of Vitamin C? I noticed that always when taking Vitamin C, i get extrem tired and fatigued, and even my voice gets quieter and fatigued. Is this normal? I'm taking L-(+)-ascorbic acid.

It does increase progesterone so that could account for some feeling of tiredness.

 

[Dr. B]

It does increase progesterone so that could account for some feeling of tiredness.

arent there issues with vitamin C depleting copper, zinc, and some other nutrients? how can it safely be supplemented, and is supplementation needed/beneficial if you're drinking 16oz orange juice a day, which would provide around 180mg of vitamin C? plus shouldn't meat and milk have the dehydroascorbic acid form of it?

 

[InChristAlone]

arent there issues with vitamin C depleting copper, zinc, and some other nutrients? how can it safely be supplemented, and is supplementation needed/beneficial if you're drinking 16oz orange juice a day, which would provide around 180mg of vitamin C? plus shouldn't meat and milk have the dehydroascorbic acid form of it?

No it does not decrease copper, studies look at ceruloplasmin and conclude it messes with it, when in reality it's just regulating copper status. Been using 4 grams a day for 4.5 yrs and don't see any signs of copper deficiency. No white hairs popping up either. Got through covid without much precaution, no washing hands even was around sick people and no one in my family has been sick in over 2 yrs. Being in the south has helped with that, but the scientist Doris Loh believes very highly in ascorbic acid protecting against covid.

 

[Dr. B]

No it does not decrease copper, studies look at ceruloplasmin and conclude it messes with it, when in reality it's just regulating copper status. Been using 4 grams a day for 4.5 yrs and don't see any signs of copper deficiency. No white hairs popping up either. Got through covid without much precaution, no washing hands even was around sick people and no one in my family has been sick in over 2 yrs. Being in the south has helped with that, but the scientist Doris Loh believes very highly in ascorbic acid protecting against covid.

what is the purpose behind supplementation, supplementation of mega doses, and supplementation if already consuming OJ, meat, milk? it seems like every nutrient which is supplemented, counteracts or depletes a series of other nutrients. b vitamins do this, and zinc, copper, iron, manganese, and probably a few other minerals/vitamins interact with each other.

 

[Amazoniac]

It's valuable to supplement ascorbic acid with foods that are low in metals and rich in pyridoxine in attempt to ease the oxalate burden. If it's not enough and oxalate builds up, a liquid meal would help to dilute it and prevent issues.

There's the claim of an oxalate-sulfate exchange where sulfate metabolism can be disturbed with increasing oxalate (putin, 2020). If this is true, megadosing ascorbic acid is better accompanied by additional sulfate, for being needed in mucous membranes. In this case, it wouldn't surprise me if a combination of cysteine, pyridoxine and molybdenum helped people to improve lung function. Direct sulfate supplementation might work to some extent, but inferior due to a poorer regulation (better to convert it on demand) and the other uses of sulfur that sulfate can't fulfill.

Sulfate also plays a role in water regulation (may be why pyridoxine helps with excessive urination), so if urination pattern is altered from megadosing ascorbic acid, don't be vague like I'm being and look further into this.

Has anyone benefited from pyridoxine, molybdenum, or sulfate when supplementing ascorbic acid?

---

- Megadose vitamin C suppresses sulfoconjugation in human colon carcinoma cell line Caco-2

Added link.​

 

[Amazoniac]

Vitamin C (anti-estrogenic; ER) - Mense et al., 2009

My beloved vitamin C antiestrogenic!

 

[Amazoniac]

- Vitamin C Supplementation in Healthy Individuals Leads to Shifts of Bacterial Populations in the Gut—A Pilot Study

Spoiler

"Here, we designed a pilot intervention study in healthy volunteers to determine whether supplementation with high-dose (1000 mg) vitamin C can favourably alter the composition of the gut microbiota. Vitamin C is proficiently absorbed in the proximal small intestine, as is generally the case with vitamins. A daily intake of 30–180 mg/day leads to 70–90% absorption of vitamin C, yet when applying doses exceeding 1000 mg/day, absorption falls to less than 50% [12,16]. This dose-dependent gastrointestinal uptake in the small intestine allows for delivery of vitamin C to the gut microbiota, which is primarily located in the ileum and colon, when orally administered in high doses of 1000 mg."

"The strongest effect of high-dose vitamin C supplementation was the increased relative abundance of the family Lachnospiraceae. The Lachnospiraceae bacterial family belongs to the phylum Firmicutes and is a predominant bacterial group of the gut microbiota in healthy subjects [29,30]. Lachnospiraceae form one of the main producers of short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs). These are bacterial metabolites that are known to possess several anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects [31]. A study investigating the effect of micronutrients on the gut microbiota composition of patients with cystic fibrosis found that increased vitamin C intake positively correlated with the abundance of Firmicutes [32]. The same study found a negative correlation of vitamin C with abundance of the phylum Bacteroidetes, a finding which is also supported by the present study. The exact mechanisms of interaction between the Lachnospiraceae family and its human host remain to be determined. As is often the case with specific bacterial groups, it remains largely unclear whether an increased or decreased abundance may be a cause or consequence of the disease. For instance, a greater abundance of Lachnospiraceae is found in patients with T2DM and liver and kidney diseases [29]. Interestingly, a decreased abundance of Lachnospiraceae is found in faecal samples of Crohn’s disease (CD) and ulcerative colitis (UC) patients [29,33]."

"Pham et al. [25] reported a significant increase in total faecal SCFA concentrations after vitamin C supplementation, which corresponds with the shift towards butyrate-producing bacteria as observed in our study."

"In terms of relative changes in bacterial group abundances, highest fold changes in relative abundances in the positive direction were observed for Bifidobacteriaceae, Veillonella-Dialister, Collinsella aerofaciens, Lachnospiraceae (other), Roseburia and Ruminococci from Clostridium group XIVa, and largest fold changes were observed in the negative direction for Akkermansia muciniphila, enterococci, Intestinibacter bartlettii, Gemmiger formicilis and Streptococcus thermophilus (Figure 2). Of these fold changes, only those of Lachnospiraceae (other), Gemmiger formicilis, Bacteroidetes and Enterococci were statistically significant (p < 0.05)."

"The results of this study are relevant for a variety of reasons. Currently, human clinical studies investigating the effect of vitamins on the gut microbiota are sparsely available. Previous clinical studies investigating vitamin B2 and vitamin D supplementation demonstrated potential beneficial alterations in microbiota compositions [23,24]. More recently, a study in healthy volunteers investigating the effects of colon-delivered vitamins A, B2, C, D and E on the gut microbiota reported microbiota-modulating effects of vitamins B2, C and D. Vitamin C supplementation (500 mg/day for 4 weeks) demonstrated increased microbiota diversity and an increased abundance of Collinsella [25]. The advantage of oral high-dose vitamin C supplementation over controlled colon-delivery of vitamin C lies in the combination of its absorption in the upper gastrointestinal tract while concurrently establishing vitamin C delivery to the gut microbiota, as high-dose vitamin C is only partially absorbed in the small bowel [12]. This approach may be of particular value for patients with diseases that might benefit from microbiota-modulation and who are simultaneously at risk of vitamin C deficiency."

"In conclusion, this human pilot study demonstrates that supplementation of high-dose vitamin C can manipulate the gut microbiota composition, leading to shifts of bacterial populations in the gut. This alteration of the gut microbiota composition and its associated anti-inflammatory effects with, for example, butyrate production may potentially be beneficial for a variety of diseases characterized by disturbed gut microbiota homeostasis, e.g., IBD, metabolic, cardiovascular and neurological diseases."

- Vitamin C Is An Endotoxin Antagonist And Can Reduce Cortisol And Inflammation "acetate"

 

[InChristAlone]

- Vitamin C Supplementation in Healthy Individuals Leads to Shifts of Bacterial Populations in the Gut—A Pilot Study

Spoiler

"Here, we designed a pilot intervention study in healthy volunteers to determine whether supplementation with high-dose (1000 mg) vitamin C can favourably alter the composition of the gut microbiota. Vitamin C is proficiently absorbed in the proximal small intestine, as is generally the case with vitamins. A daily intake of 30–180 mg/day leads to 70–90% absorption of vitamin C, yet when applying doses exceeding 1000 mg/day, absorption falls to less than 50% [12,16]. This dose-dependent gastrointestinal uptake in the small intestine allows for delivery of vitamin C to the gut microbiota, which is primarily located in the ileum and colon, when orally administered in high doses of 1000 mg."

Spoiler

​

"The strongest effect of high-dose vitamin C supplementation was the increased relative abundance of the family Lachnospiraceae. The Lachnospiraceae bacterial family belongs to the phylum Firmicutes and is a predominant bacterial group of the gut microbiota in healthy subjects [29,30]. Lachnospiraceae form one of the main producers of short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs). These are bacterial metabolites that are known to possess several anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects [31]. A study investigating the effect of micronutrients on the gut microbiota composition of patients with cystic fibrosis found that increased vitamin C intake positively correlated with the abundance of Firmicutes [32]. The same study found a negative correlation of vitamin C with abundance of the phylum Bacteroidetes, a finding which is also supported by the present study. The exact mechanisms of interaction between the Lachnospiraceae family and its human host remain to be determined. As is often the case with specific bacterial groups, it remains largely unclear whether an increased or decreased abundance may be a cause or consequence of the disease. For instance, a greater abundance of Lachnospiraceae is found in patients with T2DM and liver and kidney diseases [29]. Interestingly, a decreased abundance of Lachnospiraceae is found in faecal samples of Crohn’s disease (CD) and ulcerative colitis (UC) patients [29,33]."​

​

"Pham et al. [25] reported a significant increase in total faecal SCFA concentrations after vitamin C supplementation, which corresponds with the shift towards butyrate-producing bacteria as observed in our study."​

​

"In terms of relative changes in bacterial group abundances, highest fold changes in relative abundances in the positive direction were observed for Bifidobacteriaceae, Veillonella-Dialister, Collinsella aerofaciens, Lachnospiraceae (other), Roseburia and Ruminococci from Clostridium group XIVa, and largest fold changes were observed in the negative direction for Akkermansia muciniphila, enterococci, Intestinibacter bartlettii, Gemmiger formicilis and Streptococcus thermophilus (Figure 2). Of these fold changes, only those of Lachnospiraceae (other), Gemmiger formicilis, Bacteroidetes and Enterococci were statistically significant (p < 0.05)."​

​

"The results of this study are relevant for a variety of reasons. Currently, human clinical studies investigating the effect of vitamins on the gut microbiota are sparsely available. Previous clinical studies investigating vitamin B2 and vitamin D supplementation demonstrated potential beneficial alterations in microbiota compositions [23,24]. More recently, a study in healthy volunteers investigating the effects of colon-delivered vitamins A, B2, C, D and E on the gut microbiota reported microbiota-modulating effects of vitamins B2, C and D. Vitamin C supplementation (500 mg/day for 4 weeks) demonstrated increased microbiota diversity and an increased abundance of Collinsella [25]. The advantage of oral high-dose vitamin C supplementation over controlled colon-delivery of vitamin C lies in the combination of its absorption in the upper gastrointestinal tract while concurrently establishing vitamin C delivery to the gut microbiota, as high-dose vitamin C is only partially absorbed in the small bowel [12]. This approach may be of particular value for patients with diseases that might benefit from microbiota-modulation and who are simultaneously at risk of vitamin C deficiency."​

​

"In conclusion, this human pilot study demonstrates that supplementation of high-dose vitamin C can manipulate the gut microbiota composition, leading to shifts of bacterial populations in the gut. This alteration of the gut microbiota composition and its associated anti-inflammatory effects with, for example, butyrate production may potentially be beneficial for a variety of diseases characterized by disturbed gut microbiota homeostasis, e.g., IBD, metabolic, cardiovascular and neurological diseases."​

​

- Vitamin C Is An Endotoxin Antagonist And Can Reduce Cortisol And Inflammation "acetate"

Excellent

 

[Amazoniac]

"Molecular" weights:

Copper: 63.5 g/mol​

Ascorbic acid: 176.1 g/mol​

63.5 ÷ 176.1 is about 35%.

A medium pear can contain 10 mg, it's a fruit with one of the lowest contents.

10 mg AA ⨯ 35% → 3.5 mg Cu

How is it possible to argue that ascorbic acid in foods is part of a complex that includes copper?

 

[Amazoniac]

- Alcohol enhances vitamin C excretion in the urine

Urinary ascorbic acid excretion was measured on four consecutive days in 9 normal male volunteers for 4 hr before and after drinking nothing (control), 0.58 g alcohol/kg body wt as whisky or lager or water (1L./70 kg body wt). The normal reduction in ascorbic acid excretion under control conditions was abolished by drinking water. Alcohol in either form produced a 47% increase in urinary ascorbic acid excretion. A similar ascorbiuresis in chronic alcoholics would be an additional factor in the causation of vitamin C deficiency in these patients.

 

[Amazoniac]

If you benefit from powdered fruit, make sure to compare different sources before attributing an effect on its "vitamin" C content. Regarding acerola and pectin, I think that it's decreased as the acerola ripens.
- Acerola polysaccharides ameliorate high-fat diet-induced non-alcoholic fatty liver disease through reduction of lipogenesis and improvement of mitochondrial functions in mice
- Impact of combining acerola by-product with a probiotic strain on a gut microbiome model
- Anti-fatigue activity of an arabinan-rich pectin from acerola (Malpighia emarginata)

 

[Dave Clark]

If you benefit from powdered fruit, make sure to compare different sources before attributing an effect on its "vitamin" C content. Regarding acerola and pectin, I think that it's decreased as the acerola ripens.
- Acerola polysaccharides ameliorate high-fat diet-induced non-alcoholic fatty liver disease through reduction of lipogenesis and improvement of mitochondrial functions in mice
- Impact of combining acerola by-product with a probiotic strain on a gut microbiome model
- Anti-fatigue activity of an arabinan-rich pectin from acerola (Malpighia emarginata)

Although, apparently the unripe version is higher in vitamin C: https://www.znaturalfoods.com/colle...ola-cherry-unripe-powder-organic-freeze-dried
I am not sure using a half or teaspoon of this powder would give any substantial amount of pectin, far more inadvertently gets consumed just by consuming common fruits.

 

[Amazoniac]

Although, apparently the unripe version is higher in vitamin C: https://www.znaturalfoods.com/colle...ola-cherry-unripe-powder-organic-freeze-dried
I am not sure using a half or teaspoon of this powder would give any substantial amount of pectin, far more inadvertently gets consumed just by consuming common fruits.

It must be a low amount, but perhaps not negligible. If values below is reliable, for every gram of ascourgic acid, the person may be getting 2-3 g of pectin. It would be in line with the carbohydrate content reported on the label.

- Activity of pectinmethylesterase, pectin content and vitamin C in Acerola fruit at various stages of fruit development​

Pectin is also a generic term, the authors above pointed out that acerolas are unusually rich in arabinad.

- Butyric Acid From Fiber And Starch​

These differences in composition can lead to a greater impact than antecipated for the amount.

If responses to fruits vary depending on the degree of ripeness, some of them may be powderized too early and be irritating. It's possible for the fruit to be dismissed without considering that it can be a quality issue.