Vitamin C

[tankasnowgod]

No, I mean that in a stressed society that should be desperate for vit C, finding an acerola juice on a shelf that gives you 1200-2500 mg (or more) of vit C per 100 ml (their contribution to the volume is little) + the content of the orange juice is equivalent to finding an oasis in the dessert. They should be using the tangerine juice as a stool to reach for the other, just like the commercial. Same thing for guava or camu camu (this one is rarer but a few places do sell them) combinations. There has to be a good justification for their choice, and it's not simply habit because of the fruit vendor situation.

This has been puzzling me for a long time.

I have never even seen acerola, guava, or camu camu juice in any store. It's a bit hard for people to buy a product when it doesn't exist (or, at the very least, is incredibly rare).

I did find some acerola puree with a quick google search, but it was quite expensive.

 

[Amazoniac]

I wasn't referring to that post in particular, but posts previous to that. It seems anytime I or someone else in this thread would share their experience with Vitamin C (and in the Vitamin D thread when I was sharing my experiment), you jumped in with an insulting comment, and seemed to imply the person was stupid for experimenting. I also think you were deliberately rude to Tarimander, especially when he was apologizing directly to you in case you misunderstood him.

It seems that you're getting the wrong impression. I have not insulted you, there was never a reason to. We'll need to work on our bromance because I'm not feeling the chemistry. I wasn't rude to Tarmander, the guy that mocks has to be receptive to mockery.

I didn't claim diarrhea was the only possible negative effect, but I did acknowledge it's an established one. You did post the study that showed C can reduce copper which is a possible negative, and a good thing to keep an eye on. Beyond that, it seems like you are simply theorizing that there might be other negatives out there, but can express exactly what they are, or find evidence in studies. As such, I don't think theories trump both personal experience and established benefits.

It's difficult sometimes to detect more subtle things and maybe the body finds a way to adapt to this. I agree that personal experience is way more important than these.

What made him stop? I have no idea whatsoever. Maybe he saw no effect. Maybe he didn't think of using a higher dose. Maybe he had a bad batch. Maybe he saw no need to use a higher dose cause he was satisfied with the results of his treatment. Maybe his treatment contained a far higher dose of Vitamin C due to all the fresh juices. Maybe it was too expensive. Maybe it was 1,000 other possibilities.

But I just fail to see the logic of why I should stop using a very safe and effective supplement that is clearly having some benefits for me because a doctor over 60 years ago didn't use the exact same dose when treating a completely unrelated disease.

No effect goes against what you all have been suggesting. It's very likely that he tried different dosages. Can't have a bad batch for years. He was incessant in trying to hone to get better and better results. I guess it was close to 1 gram. Already touched on the cost issue and I doubt this is an issue for people who have their lives in the line.
Norwalk Juicers — About Us

You should absolutely not stop because of this. I'm just wondering what's going on.

I have never even seen acerola, guava, or camu camu juice in any store. It's a bit hard for people to buy a product when it doesn't exist (or, at the very least, is incredibly rare).

I did fidn some acerola puree with a quick google search, but it was quite expensive.

All are quite cheap locally, fresh and cost the same (with the exception of camu camu, which is rarer).

 

[tankasnowgod]

It seems that you're getting the wrong impression. I have not insulted you, there was never a reason to. We'll need to work on our bromance because I'm not feeling the chemistry. I wasn't rude to Tarmander, the guy that mocks has to be receptive to mockery.

Fair enough. I don't think there will be any "bromance," but I take you at your word that you weren't meaning to insult me. I very well might have misinterpreted what you said. I do think you should take another look at what you said to Tarmander, and you did certianly quote him out of context, and mis-represented what he was saying.

You should absolutely not stop because of this. I'm just wondering what's going on.

I haven't, I've just been sharing less details here on the forum.

All are quite cheap locally, fresh and cost the same (with the exception of camu camu, which is rarer).

Well, they don't seem cheap or local in the United States. At least in the Los Angeles area.

 

[InChristAlone]

No, I mean that in a stressed society that should be desperate for vit C, finding an acerola juice on a shelf that gives you 1200-2500 mg (or more) of vit C per 100 ml (their contribution to the volume is little) + the content of the orange juice is equivalent to finding an oasis in the dessert. They should be using the tangerine juice as a stool to reach for the other, just like the commercial. Same thing for guava or camu camu (this one is rarer but a few places do sell them) combinations. There has to be a good justification for their choice, and it's not simply habit because of the fruit vendor situation.

This has been puzzling me for a long time.

You live in the Netherlands right? Maybe they have never had acerola or guava? I know I never have! And I love fruit and juice, I just don't typically buy exotic fruit, and even shy away from some common tropical fruit like papaya, maybe I am too picky. Sometimes it is hard for people to try exotic fruit even if it may be really really good.

 

[Amazoniac]

I do think you should take another look at what you said to Tarmander, and you did certianly quote him out of context, and mis-represented what he was saying.

The Tarmandus thing has been bothering you for pages and you still think that he was just being compassionate. You can confirm that he was ridicularizing because when I told him to drop the pity talk, he didn't seem confused or refuted for wronging him: he kneweded what was going on.

I haven't, I've just been sharing less details here on the forum.

Whenever someone is trying something and keeps a public log about it, I understand that the person is welcoming questionings. Otherwise there isn't much point in sharing it before the conclusion unless it's for encouragement from others.

As you know, Charlotte has modified the original program (things were removed, others added such as pau d'arco, chamomile tea, etc), yet the supplemental C was already in use and the amount has remained the same. She's aware of vit C megadose therapy for mentioning it somewhere. It was enough time for her to notice that every time people took C, their state improved, especially now that it's cheap and the price/availability justification no longer applies.

You live in the Netherlands right? Maybe they have never had acerola or guava? I know I never have! And I love fruit and juice, I just don't typically buy exotic fruit, and even shy away from some common tropical fruit like papaya, maybe I am too picky. Sometimes it is hard for people to try exotic fruit even if it may be really really good.

I was just trying to fit in after realizing that various of our scientists are from.. here.

They're not exotic at all. Other than supermarkets, most neighborhoods have at least one fruit market, but usually more. As an example, I just opened Google Maps and searched for them in a random area near the by; I could count 16 fruit markets in about 3 km².

Most of these stores sell such fruits fresh, with the exception of camu camu (which is rare but easy to find as freeze-dried, howewa it's far from being cheap in relation to others). The majority of people know how they taste, I keep asking close people if they want some but they pass, sometimes I even ask twice.
Regarding those juices in specific, people have tried others when 'the dear' was sold out. It's not habit because those who are raised around these fruits eat them but with the same moderation, and don't find anything special about them.

A point of this foxless, rabbitless and crowless fable is that recycling and conserving mechanisms seem efficient, and when high doses are needed, I think part is an increased requirement for vit C that is not being met, but another part might be an impairment in those mechanisms. Taking high doses must bypass this, and perhaps this is one of its advantages, you take the burden of whatever else is compromised. Over the times it's worth working on those mechanisms if the aim is to normalize the dose. But people in general are stressed, therefore they should be finding high vit C food sources unusually appealing, but they doesn't. A second point that can help to explain this behavior is the detrimental interactions. If it isn't for this, they would all seek more and more and only stop right before diarrhea: the elixir* is at reach in front of them.

*This is not a sponsored post, you can buy whatever guitar strings you prefer.

 

[InChristAlone]

The Tarmandus thing has been bothering you for pages and you still think that he was just being compassionate. You can confirm that he was ridicularizing because when I told him to drop the pity talk, he didn't seem confused or refuted for wronging him: he kneweded what was going on.

Whenever someone is trying something and keeps a public log about it, I understand that the person is welcoming questionings. Otherwise there isn't much point in sharing it before the conclusion unless it's for encouragement from others.

As you know, Charlotte has modified the original program (things were removed, others added such as pau d'arco, chamomile tea, etc), yet the supplemental C was already in use and the amount has remained the same. She's aware of vit C megadose therapy for mentioning it somewhere. It was enough time for her to notice that every time people took C, their state improved, especially now that it's cheap and the price/availability justification no longer applies.

I was just trying to fit in after realizing that various of our scientists are from.. here.

They're not exotic at all. Other than supermarkets, most neighborhoods have at least one fruit market, but usually more. As an example, I just opened Google Maps and searched for them in a random area near the by; I could count 16 fruit markets in about 3 km².

Most of these stores sell such fruits fresh, with the exception of camu camu (which is rare but easy to find as freeze-dried, howewa it's far from being cheap in relation to others). The majority of people know how they taste, I keep asking close people if they want some but they pass, sometimes I even ask twice.
Regarding those juices in specific, people have tried others when 'the dear' was sold out. It's not habit because those who are raised around these fruits eat them but with the same moderation, and don't find anything special about them.

A point of this foxless, rabbitless and crowless fable is that recycling and conserving mechanisms seem efficient, and when high doses are needed, I think part is an increased requirement for vit C that is not being met, but another part might be an impairment in those mechanisms. Taking high doses must bypass this, and perhaps this is one of its advantages, you take the burden of whatever else is compromised. Over the times it's worth working on those mechanisms if the aim is to normalize the dose. But people in general are stressed, therefore they should be finding high vit C food sources unusually appealing, but they doesn't. A second point that can help to explain this behavior is the detrimental interactions. If it isn't for this, they would all seek more and more and only stop right before diarrhea: the elixir* is at reach in front of them.

*This is not a sponsored post, you can buy whatever guitar strings you prefer.

You have been lieing about the Netherlands? I am so confused. Please don't use your anomynity to play around.

You are ****-uming that acerola doesn't have things about it that make it less sought after. Oranges are pretty high in C and people love oranges. Then you are ****-uming our cravings are always correct. When I was a kid I craved dry noodles. I also ate other weird things like french dressing with shredded cheese. And yet I was diagnosed malnourished and wasn't growing. Why did my body crave dry noodles when I needed good nutrition? Why did I eat chapstick and glue? Lol iron deficiency can cause pica, I wonder why they aren't having an intense craving to eat liver? The body is weird! I don't think it will always lead us to the most nutritious food. So please don't ****-ume.

 

[Amazoniac]

You have been lieing about the Netherlands? I am so confused. Please don't use your anomynity to play around.

You are ****-uming that acerola doesn't have things about it that make it less sought after. Oranges are pretty high in C and people love oranges. Then you are ****-uming our cravings are always correct. When I was a kid I craved dry noodles. I also ate other weird things like french dressing with shredded cheese. And yet I was diagnosed malnourished and wasn't growing. Why did my body crave dry noodles when I needed good nutrition? Why did I eat chapstick and glue? Lol iron deficiency can cause pica, I wonder why they aren't having an intense craving to eat liver? The body is weird! I don't think it will always lead us to the most nutritious food. So please don't ****-ume.

I can't do that but it's fine for you to play tricks on me by induction, right?

How likely it is that any antinutrition in such fruit weights more than the desperation for vit C? There are many reviews from consumers of dry acerola powders that use them frequently in exorbitant amounts without issues. Guava juice is also available and its content adds to the juicy fruit that's blended with; it ends up being quite high in vit C as well, way more than tangerine.

And if you still insist on this delusion, for convenience they sell the effervescent vit C tablets on every drugstore. People just don't buy those unless they're after the funky fizz or when they make the association of a cold and the need for vit C, often suggested by ads and not as intuitive as with fruits. But more importantly, they use it once or twice and then abandon it to expiration.

When you have so many people choosing some things over others, you no longer have an isolated case with peculiar cravings. And this is why I mentioned situations involving groups as well.

 

[InChristAlone]

I can't do that but it's fine for you to play tricks on me by induction, right?

How likely it is that any antinutrition in such fruit weights more than the desperation for vit C? There are many reviews from consumers of dry acerola powders that use them frequently in exorbitant amounts without issues. Guava juice is also available and its content adds to the juicy fruit that's blended with; it ends up being quite high in vit C as well, way more than tangerine.

And if you still insist on this delusion, for convenience they sell the effervescent vit C tablets on every drugstore. People just don't buy those unless they're after the funky fizz or when they make the association of a cold and the need for vit C, often suggested by ads and not as intuitive as with fruits. But more importantly, they use it once or twice and then abandon it to expiration.

When you have so many people choosing some things over others, you no longer have an isolated case with peculiar cravings. And this is why I mentioned situations involving groups as well.

You literally ignored everything I said. So I will repeat myself. The body does not always lead you to what it needs. Please tell me how many Americans are eating intuitively? Saying that because stressed people aren't after vitamin C that proves we don't need much even when stressed is bunk.

 

[Amazoniac]

You literally ignored everything I said. So I will repeat myself. The body does not always lead you to what it needs. Please tell me how many Americans are eating intuitively? Saying that because stressed people aren't after vitamin C that proves we don't need much even when stressed is bunk.

That's your proyection.

Our cravings are always an attempt to restore balance. They don't always lead us to best choices because we can be desperate enough to correct something that we overlook its downsides; but once they do (which was the case for people mentioned, for having tasted already), you will seek more of and return to it until satiation, unless there's something limiting, but this isn't applicable to vit C since it has no negative effects.

Keep in mind that those people aren't reaching for heavily processed comfort foods, they're choosing an option that's right next to their elixir in a tasty package over and over again.

 

[InChristAlone]

That's your proyection.

Our cravings are always an attempt to restore balance. They don't always lead us to best choices because we can be desperate enough to correct something that we overlook its downsides; but once they do (which was the case for people mentioned, for having tasted already), you will seek more of and return to it until satiation, unless there's something limiting, but this isn't applicable to vit C since it has no negative effects.

Keep in mind that those people aren't reaching for heavily processed comfort foods, they're choosing an option that's right next to their elixir in a tasty package over and over again.

But I gave you an example of how this isn't true. Pica. That's a clinical diagnosis. Maybe acerola or guava doesn't taste as good? I wouldn't know. I have never tried it. But that is subjective. All of this is speculative. And again just because people aren't reaching for the option with more vitamin C does not in any way shape or form conclusively prove we don't need much.

 

[tankasnowgod]

But I gave you an example of how this isn't true. Pica. That's a clinical diagnosis. Maybe acerola or guava doesn't taste as good? I wouldn't know. I have never tried it. But that is subjective. All of this is speculative. And again just because people aren't reaching for the option with more vitamin C does not in any way shape or form conclusively prove we don't need much.

Adding to this, people can also be trained by others or even themselves to ignore their natural cravings. Media types have done a great job convincing people that things that taste good aren't healthy. Also, tastes and cravings can be deliberately created, and there's even a phrase for that- "It's an acquired taste." That usually applies to beer, wine, alcohol, and avocado (that I can think of off the top of my head) I remember Ray Peat even talking about this specifically, how people can develop a taste for fermented foods, when they didn't crave them before.

 

[InChristAlone]

Adding to this, people can also be trained by others or even themselves to ignore their natural cravings. Media types have done a great job convincing people that things that taste good aren't healthy. Also, tastes and cravings can be deliberately created, and there's even a phrase for that- "It's an acquired taste." That usually applies to beer, wine, alcohol, and avocado (that I can think of off the top of my head) I remember Ray Peat even talking about this specifically, how people can develop a taste for fermented foods, when they didn't crave them before.

That's right tastes are not always leading us to the best food. Albert Szent-Györgyi hated paprika but his wife would make him sandwiches with it, one day he decided to analyze it and found it was a powerhouse of vitamin C. Does that mean if we need vitamin C we should be craving paprika? Haha that's just crazy.

 

[Amazoniac]

But I gave you an example of how this isn't true. Pica. That's a clinical diagnosis. Maybe acerola or guava doesn't taste as good? I wouldn't know. I have never tried it. But that is subjective. All of this is speculative. And again just because people aren't reaching for the option with more vitamin C does not in any way shape or form conclusively prove we don't need much.

It's still a correction attempt and not random. I already told you it's not sour taste or something similar because they can be part of delicious blends. Frankdee concurs and a lot of people are with him on that.

My questionings have been based on cravings and intuition, but what are you using reference limit? The sophisticated parameter of shoving down vit C daily and waiting until people flush their insides? It's curious to say the least how no one that has these foods available seeks such state when they could.

Adding to this, people can also be trained by others or even themselves to ignore their natural cravings. Media types have done a great job convincing people that things that taste good aren't healthy. Also, tastes and cravings can be deliberately created, and there's even a phrase for that- "It's an acquired taste." That usually applies to beer, wine, alcohol, and avocado (that I can think of off the top of my head) I remember Ray Peat even talking about this specifically, how people can develop a taste for fermented foods, when they didn't crave them before.

Good point. If you persist, you might be able to condition yourself to not feel aversion for massive doses of purified vit C.

 

[InChristAlone]

It's still a correction attempt and not random. I already told you it's not sour taste or something similar because they can be part of delicious blends. Frankdee concurs and a lot of people are with him on that.

My questionings have been based on cravings and intuition, but what are you using reference limit? The sophisticated parameter of shoving down vit C daily and waiting until people flush their insides? It's curious to say the least how no one that has these foods available seeks such state when they could.

Good point. If you persist, you might be able to condition yourself to not feel aversion for massive doses of purified vit C.

I did used to eat so much fruit I'd get diarrhea. Epecially pineapple, some mornings I would eat nearly an entire pineapple then crap it all out. When I was pregnant my craving for watermelon was so great that's all I ever wanted. I ate it while in labor too. The craving vanished pretty soon after birth. But I also had pica postpartum I craved munching on ice. After my first baby I craved raw cookie dough. It was an intense desire. I typically don't have very many cravings these days. I just craved pineapple ironically, still kind of do so I will probably get more. That's after using plenty of vitamin C while being sick with a cold. So my body is in good balance these days I can stand in the kitchen and not have any craving for anything despite needing calories. According to you I must be so micronutrient deficient because of Ascorbic Acid my body should be leading me to nutrient dense food. Interesting how balanced I have actually been as compared to my past.

 

[Amazoniac]

I did used to eat so much fruit I'd get diarrhea. Epecially pineapple, some mornings I would eat nearly an entire pineapple then crap it all out. When I was pregnant my craving for watermelon was so great that's all I ever wanted. I ate it while in labor too. The craving vanished pretty soon after birth. But I also had pica postpartum I craved munching on ice. After my first baby I craved raw cookie dough. It was an intense desire. I typically don't have very many cravings these days. I just craved pineapple ironically, still kind of do so I will probably get more. That's after using plenty of vitamin C while being sick with a cold. So my body is in good balance these days I can stand in the kitchen and not have any craving for anything despite needing calories.

Have you ever noticed how when you don't know what to say you turn to yourself for stories?

According to you I must be so micronutrient deficient because of Ascorbic Acid my body should be leading me to nutrient dense food. Interesting how balanced I have actually been as compared to my past.

Where did I post that? I even suggested that over time the body might find a way to minimize possible detrimental effects.

 

[InChristAlone]

Have you ever noticed how when you don't know what to say you turn to yourself for stories?

Where did I post that? I even suggested that over time the body might find a way to minimize possible detrimental effects.

Because I have the freedom to talk about my own experience and things I have researched. I told you I have sought a state of fruit flush many many times. So you are ****-uming yet again people don't seek out fruit in excessive amounts. And that because they prefer tangerine over acerola that this somehow says things about the body.

And you have suggested Ascorbic Acid could imbalance other nutrients. Many times. But my health shows otherwise. And the health of thousands of people who use AA.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Good point. If you persist, you might be able to condition yourself to not feel aversion for massive doses of purified vit C.

Why do you assume I have an aversion for it? I don't. I like the taste of ascorbic acid, it reminds me of Sour Patch Kids. I liked them and other sour candies as a kid and into my teens.

I don't might the taste of Sodium Ascorbate, either. It tastes just like table salt to me, only not as strong.

 

[Tarmander]

I do think you should take another look at what you said to Tarmander, and you did certianly quote him out of context, and mis-represented what he was saying

I appreciate the support.

I wasn't rude to Tarmander, the guy that mocks has to be receptive to mockery.

Like he said, fair enough. I was mocking the study you posted.

The Tarmandus thing has been bothering you for pages and you still think that he was just being compassionate.

I was definitely not being compassionate, but mocking that study you posted.

I read back over my posts in this thread, maybe I should not have been as sarcastic in my answering your question Amazoniac. If I came off as angry, my bad. I still think there is some language barrier here because half the time I do not really understand you. You use odd words and jokes that make no sense to me. We go round and round but I am not really sure if anything other then talk happens, but I guess you enjoy it? Maybe I am just not that smart to pick up on your more subtle cues. I do enjoy some of the studies you post as they are much clearer, but I do not feel I have very meaningful interactions with you. Sorry mate. But, I just want to make sure there are no hard feelings.

 

[Amazoniac]

Because I have the freedom to talk about my own experience and things I have researched. I told you I have sought a state of fruit flush many many times. So you are ****-uming yet again people don't seek out fruit in excessive amounts. And that because they prefer tangerine over acerola that this somehow says things about the body.

And you have suggested Ascorbic Acid could imbalance other nutrients. Many times. But my health shows otherwise. And the health of thousands of people who use AA.

<Accepts mic while staring down focused getting in the rhythm>

♫

Uh, uh, uh..

Your words come out with much conviction
Even though your posts are filled with contradictions

For me, talk dosing in endotoxin is enough to shame [: threadjack]
For you, it's pica, ice chewing, pregnancy and we can't blame

Divine forces are on your side, it's cool and quite fantastic
You mention ice and the foro turns into arctic

I use as references cravings and intuition
But you prefer what's purging to deglutition

You won't dump a powder in a drink more times a day
But a single shot wears off in hours to your dismay

Google, give me results for Hickey and his work on vitamin C
But I didn't mean how to get rid of one so that no one can see

'Ascorbate: da science of vitamin C' - Steve Hickey and Hilary Roberts.

2x 1000 mg.

Steve criticized the experiments that evaluated levels hours later for only detecting a fraction of the peak activity.
Sustaining high levels is one of the goals of this therapeutic approach after all. But..​

It looks like you're after potentializing its laxative effect
But don't treat nutrient interactions with such neglect

Your toilet is happy with concentration
At least there's no obstruction from excrementation

230 mg in 100 g of guavas is negligible and just symbolic
But this is no surprise from someone that's ascorbaholic

The health improves and that's all we care
But what if we can negate the cost? This is my dare

Why do you assume I have an aversion for it? I don't. I like the taste of ascorbic acid, it reminds me of Sour Patch Kids. I liked them and other sour candies as a kid and into my teens.

I don't might the taste of Sodium Ascorbate, either. It tastes just like table salt to me, only not as strong.

I was talking in general, not you in specific. It must be possible to desensitize yourself/oneself to it.

I appreciate the support.



Like he said, fair enough. I was mocking the study you posted.



I was definitely not being compassionate, but mocking that study you posted.

I read back over my posts in this thread, maybe I should not have been as sarcastic in my answering your question Amazoniac. If I came off as angry, my bad. I still think there is some language barrier here because half the time I do not really understand you. You use odd words and jokes that make no sense to me. We go round and round but I am not really sure if anything other then talk happens, but I guess you enjoy it? Maybe I am just not that smart to pick up on your more subtle cues. I do enjoy some of the studies you post as they are much clearer, but I do not feel I have very meaningful interactions with you. Sorry mate. But, I just want to make sure there are no hard feelings.

No negative feelings. I would've otherwise eventually tried to figure out a way to reignite the flames of our bromance.

 

[yerrag]

No (Wagner, 2018).

The Antioxidant System

Spoiler

View attachment 11353

"For vitamin C, if we think about its chemistry in a little bit more detail, we can think of some very practical implications for how to keep it stable in our foods. So if you look on the screen, ascorbic acid has a hydroxyl group in the lower right corner and that hydrogen on the hydroxyl group can ionize into solution. A hydrogen ion is also called a proton and so ascorbic acid is in the protonated state, when that proton has left, it’s in the deprotonated state, which is the ascorbate ion. That oxygen is now negatively charged because a positive charge has left it. It is not a radical, all of its electrons are properly paired but it has one extra electron relative to its own number of protons.

That gives it a negative charge and whenever something is fully charged, we call it an ion. The ascorbate ion then becomes vulnerable to losing that extra electron and becoming the ascorbyl radical, which symbolized by the dot, is a free radical. You can think of this original hydrogen ion as a cap that protects that extra electron from oxidation. So ascorbic acid cannot undergo oxidation under any circumstances.

The ascorbate ion can undergo oxidation. And the ascorbyl radical could be reduced back to the ascorbate ion, but it’s very likely, if that doesn’t happen immediately, to undergo another oxidation to dehydroscorbate, and that’s simply the loss of another electron and you can see the double bonds move around to balance everything out. And dehydroscorbate is neither a free radical nor is it charged, so it’s much more stable than the ascorbyl radical. Now, why does this matter for our food? Well, we can manipulate the ratio of acorbic acid to ascorbate ion in a solution by controlling the acidity. So if we add acids to a solution that has vitamin C in it, then we will have more hydrogen ions, and these greater number of hydrogen ions will add themselves to this O minus and that will shift ascorbate ions towards ascorbic acid. Since ascorbic acid cannot undergo oxidation, adding acid to a food to preserve the ascorbic acid state over the ascorbate ion state, is going to prevent the formation of the ascorbyl radical and prevent the formation of dehydroascorbate in that food."

Spoiler

View attachment 11354

"Now, you can say, well why do I care if there is dehydroascorbate in my food? If that happens in my cells and I just reduce it back ascorbic acid, can’t I do the same thing with this food? Probably you can. The problem is, as shown on the screen, dehydroascorbic acid is vulnerable to hydrolytic ring rupture, which means that, hydro = water; lytic = breaks a part, the ring. So if you look at dehydroascorbate on the top, you see this bond between the top O and this larger structure on the side that bond is what can get ruptured apart. I put the water in red to make it easier to see what is happening. Water is an H and an OH, H2O. The H comes over here and the OH comes over here and in the process breaks apart that ring.

Once dehydroscorbic acid undergoes hydrolytic ring rupture, you can never get it back to any of the other forms; that’s irreversible loss."

"So, if we are thinking back about foods, then we want to do is prevent the formation of dehydroascorbate, because if we do that, then we are never going to have the irreversible destruction of vitamin C in the solution. So there is really two ways to do this. One way would be to simply keep vitamin C as a dry powder. If there is no water, this H can never leave into solution and you’re never going to get any ascorbate ion. So if you think about vitamin C supplements, that’s what they’ve done.

You have a dry powder in a jar, you have a dry powder in a capsule, you have dry powder mixed with some other agents in a tablet and that dryness preserves the vitamin C. What if you have a natural food? They have their own water.

Well to some degree, nature has taken care of that, because if you think about the foods with the most water that also have vitamin C, they tend to have other acids that bring the pH down. Think of citrus fruits you have a very juicy material, you know you squeeze an orange out, there is plenty of water there, but there’s also a pretty low pH because not only do you have vitamin C, but you also have other acids, and those acids help stabilize the vitamin C in that solution. You also to some degree have ongoing metabolism and that also could aid in vitamin C recycling. But if you take something like leaves, you may not have as much acid ,but you don’t need it because the vitamin C isn’t as diluted in that food.

The problem becomes when, let’s say you take leaves and then you juice them; well if you are going to drink them right away found then fine , but if you are gonna put it in the refrigerator, and save it for later, you could have a lot of loss of that vitamin C because now you have diluted the vitamin C put it in a solution and there’s not enough acid to stabilize it. So if you are going to juice things and make smoothies and make dishes that you’re saving for later especially when they’re dilute, you want to keep in mind that adding foods that provide acidity is gonna help stabilize the vitamin C."​

@yerrag

Thanks for sharing this Amazoniac. I should change my practice of dissolving my daily dose of vitamin in a water bottle and drinking the solution throughout the day. And if I should do so, I have to figure a way of acidifying it without having to add citric acid to it. Perhaps some ACV would do the job?

Would the ascorbate ion stay stable in solution when I make ascorbates of calcium, potassium, and magnesium? I suppose it wouldn't either, if I were to follow the logic as described, where ascorbate ions would easily turn into an ascorbate radical and continue on to become dehydroascorbate.

This leaves me no choice but to have to drink from a freshly made solution of ascorbic acid each time I would take ascorbic acid powder Or from a freshly made batch of ascorbate of calcium/potassium/magnesium each time I take them. This is rather inconvenient though, and not practical when I have to be on the go.

Since I'm rather sensitive to the acidic effect of ascorbic acid, I would choose the latter route of taking ascorbates as they are less acidic. I may just prepare a heterogenous mixture of calcium carbonate and water, and each time I want to take calcium ascorbate, I'd mix a preset amount of well-shaken calcium carbonate-water mixture with ascorbic acid powder, allow it to react fully, and then drink the resulting calcium ascorbate mixture. And if it's potassium ascorbate I need, I'd use potassium carbonate instead. Ditto with magnesium ascorbate and magnesium carbonate.

But that is too fussy. It makes sense then to just take capsules of ascorbates. This would be much more convenient, and I'd have to pay a little extra for the convenience.

In summary:

1. NO to drinking ascorbic acid or ascorbate solutions other than those that are freshly made
2. YES to taking capsules of ascorbic acid or ascorbate powders

From my own experience, the choice of ascorbic acid or ascorbate really depends on the person's condition. Those who get upset stomach from taking ascorbic acid should opt for the ascorbate form. But even if one could take ascorbic acid with no upset stomach, one should also consider whether ascorbic acid intake would cause his blood acidity to become relatively acidic. The way to tell is to test urine at different times during the day using urine pH test strips. If the test shows that the body has sufficient alkaline reserves such that blood/ecf pH is not adversely affected by ascorbic acid intake, then ascorbic acid can be taken. Otherwise, it would be best to take the ascorbate form.

Incidentally, I recently did 2 sets of C-Flush tests to determine my daily vitamin C requirement. One was with ascorbic acid. And the other with calcium ascorbate. I was expecting that I would be using twice the amount of ascorbic acid in calcium ascorbate (ascorbic acid + calcium carbonate = calcium ascorbate, in water solution) to achieve the same effect as straight ascorbic acid. This was because I had understood the ascorbate form to be half as effective as the pure ascorbic acid form. But I was surprised to see that the ascorbic acid used in both instances were the same. This makes me question the thinking I held all along that ascorbates are half as effective as the ascorbic acid form. Does anyone have similar experience or have references to this subject?