Vitamin B6 As Effective, General Anti-stress Therapy

[haidut]

I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid. As these two substances are obviously elevated in conditions of stress, one might conjecture that controlling them with vitamin B6 would be desirable. I did not go as far as suggesting this course of action. However, it is logical and it appears somebody else made the case for such therapy more than a decade ago. While I do not quite agree with the high doses proposed in this editorial (100mg - 300mg daily), the reasons are exactly the same as I have been giving - vitamin B6 is anti-stress (both adrenalin and cortisol) and pro-GABA. In theory, one can probably achieve the same effects as the ones discussed in the article by taking a much smaller amount (~25mg) of the activated form of B6 known as PLP or P5P. As some of you know a pharma company is trying to get PLP/P5P withdrawn from the market as it argues the vitamin is really a drug. Similarly to methylene blue, the company wants to sell you the exact same pill for 1,000 times the price. The effecive dose of that new "drug" in clinical trials for heart failure was 50mg and 250mg daily, with 50mg being more effective. Thus my conjecture that 25mg (of less) of PLP may be effective for the much milder symptoms of stress compared to heart failure.
You can get the full article if you Google around, and for those that will ask, yes I did read it in full.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10859691

"...Pyridoxine deficiency leads to increased sympathetic outflow and hypertension in rodents, possibly reflecting decreased central production of these neurotransmitters; conversely, supplemental pyridoxine lowers blood pressure in many animal models of hypertension, and there is preliminary evidence for antihypertensive activity in humans as well. Additionally, physiological levels of PLP interact with glucocorticoid receptors to down-regulate their activity. Thus, high-dose pyridoxine, by amplifying tissue levels of PLP, may be expected to have a favorable impact on certain dysphoric mental states, while diminishing sympathetic output and acting peripherally to blunt the physiological impact of corticosteroids. In light of growing evidence that chronic dysphoria, particularly when accompanied by hopelessness or cynicism, has a major negative impact on morbidity and mortality from a wide range of disorders, high intakes of pyridoxine may have the potential to improve prognosis in many individuals. With respect to cardiovascular health, reduction of homocysteine levels should contribute to this benefit. These predictions are consistent with recent epidemiology correlating plasma PLP levels with risk for vascular events and overall survival."

 

[Makrosky]

Is there any B Vitamin that it's not useful with stress/sugar/matabolism issues?????

We'll end up just simply taking the good old b-complex. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[aguilaroja]

Is there any B Vitamin that it's not useful with stress/sugar/matabolism issues?????
... good old b-complex.

page/exchanges

"Some of the B vitamins, especially B2, can be very allergenic. B6 doesn't affect the others very much; 10 mg per day is a big dose.

Its effects are usually visible immediately, or within a few days, if it's going to be helpful. It's best in general to get the B vitamins from regular foods, occasionally with liver, because supplements usually contain contaminants that can cause allergic reactions when they are used for a long time. Other B vitamins that are usually safe for occasional use are B1, niacinamide, and pantothenic acid.

If you are getting enough of the major nutrients, including protein, calcium, and sugar, it's possible that you have a specific stress-related deficiency, for example of B6, niacinamide, or selenium. 10 mg of B6 can sometimes make a quick difference in prostate and libido, 100 mg of niacinamide can reduce some stress symptoms. Applying caffeine solution to the scalp locally helps to promote hair growth. Water and a little alcohol are convenient for applying it. [LOW LIBIDO, HAIR LOSS FOR A YOUNG MALE]

Because of individual sensitivities, each one should be tested carefully. Allergic reactions sometimes show up within a few minutes of contacting your mouth, other times it takes a couple of days to see a bad reaction. The worst one is B2, folic acid is next for allergies. B1, pantothenic acid, niacinamide and B6 are pretty safe."

 

[haidut]

Is there any B Vitamin that it's not useful with stress/sugar/matabolism issues?????

We'll end up just simply taking the good old b-complex. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Some people may need one vitamin or the other in higher/lower doses. Also, the studies I post generally study these vitamins in pharmacological doses and due to specific mechanism of action such as receptors enzymes, etc. While Peat does provide some insight into how these vitamins work, it is sparse and for a good reason - you don't want an article or newsletter to be so dense as to be unreadable. Some people may simply want to take the B complex and be done with it. Others care about how these vitamins work and why they may be effective. For yet another group, the extra explanation and rational behind the studies provide people (who want to connect the dots) with ability to combine ideas and substances in a novel way. For instance, knowing that B6 is a glucocoricoid antagonist and also inhibits adrenalin release may lead people to compare it with pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, clonidine, etc and draw conclusions as to how the overall anti-stress system in the body works.
I know I am interested in this, and others have expressed interest as well. Without understanding how the system works (and Peat keeps emphasizing that all problems of health are systemic) many people are left at the mercy of quacks, in addition to not knowing what effect they would be causing when they take a specific substance.
So, my general guidelines for posting a study are these:

1. Does the study discuss a substance, process or concept that Peat has mentioned or expressed opinion about. The more "unexpected" and creative the study and its result, the higher the chance it would get my attention.
2. Does the study explain the specific of how a substance, process or concept of Peat work. This is important b/c it may either validate or disprove Peat's opinion on some thorny issues. For instance, all the people who think serotonin is the "happy" hormone could use some extra insight into how it is elevated in depression and multiple pathological conditions, and has never been found elevated in a healthy person. Specific on serotonin antagonists curing a number of serious diseases for which medicine claims there is no cure allow some people to escape the learned helplessness, which btw is also caused by serotonin.
3. Does the study provide specific information on effectiveness, side effects, duration, etc of the substance studied. While I will not make any claims of effectiveness, it is not illegal to provide information to people that will allow THEM to make claims for themselves or simply draw more informed conclusions/decisions. When you show up in a doctor's office with a science study you stand a dramatically higher chance of being taken seriously than if you simply expressed opinion. Of course, the cost is sometimes increased animosity, since some egocentric professionals feel challenged by the extra information, instead of using it to make even more informed decisions.

Anyways, there are multiple and valid reasons (IMHO) to post these studies. They are not meant to simply suggest "go take that pill and you'll be fine". It is against everything Peat has written about and what I believe in. Peat said that only through extra knowledge one can know what the right questions are and I hope that I provide a little of that extra knowledge.

 

[artemis]

... I hope that I provide a little of that extra knowledge.

You certainly do, haidut! I'm just beginning to study and learn about all these bodily processes, just scratching the surface, really. I count on you to decipher the meanings of these studies and present the bottom line to me in an easy-to-understand way. Your posts are so enlightening, and helpful in a practical way. And to think you take the time to do all this with no compensation is amazing.

Please don't ever stop posting -- promise?

 

[haidut]

... I hope that I provide a little of that extra knowledge.

You certainly do, haidut! I'm just beginning to study and learn about all these bodily processes, just scratching the surface, really. I count on you to decipher the meanings of these studies and present the bottom line to me in an easy-to-understand way. Your posts are so enlightening, and helpful in a practical way. And to think you take the time to do all this with no compensation is amazing.

Please don't ever stop posting -- promise?

No problem, this stuff fascinates me as well so I will keep posting as long as there is interest. Hopefully, more people are doing research on their own and connecting the dots. Not so much out of not believing Peat, but b/c with sufficient knowledge they can establish their own unique context.

 

[Makrosky]

Haidut! Sorry my message was unappropiate

I appreciate your posts very much.

 

[haidut]

Haidut! Sorry my message was unappropiate

I appreciate your posts very much.

No need to apologize, your post was certainly appropriate. As a matter of fact, I am glad someone got the discussion going. I am sure these thoughts pop up in people's minds.

 

[Tarmander]

Sorry to revive this thread, but seeing as how I have been taking B6 lately I had some questions.

I have been taking P5P sublingually at 10mg doses and below. I notice that after I take it, temps really rise. I definitely see lower cortisol, and hence lower blood sugar. However I also get an adrenaline response, either directly from the B6 or from the lower blood sugar. I am guessing it is probably a combination, and eating with the B6 can help lower that adrenaline response, but it does not take care of it. This adrenaline response can be quite pronounced and cause a mini-panic attack. I am more used to it now, but when I first started taking it the panic was real.

There seem to be some inconsistencies as well:

I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid.

From another thread titled B6:

It inhibits COM/COMT and as such increases plasma levels of dopamine and norepinephrine.

These seem to be contradictory. From my experience it definitely increases adrenaline. My questions are, is there anything other then food (to combat the lower blood sugar from the lower cortisol) that would lower the adrenal response from B6? Does P5P actually lower or raise adrenal response?

 

[haidut]

Sorry to revive this thread, but seeing as how I have been taking B6 lately I had some questions.

I have been taking P5P sublingually at 10mg doses and below. I notice that after I take it, temps really rise. I definitely see lower cortisol, and hence lower blood sugar. However I also get an adrenaline response, either directly from the B6 or from the lower blood sugar. I am guessing it is probably a combination, and eating with the B6 can help lower that adrenaline response, but it does not take care of it. This adrenaline response can be quite pronounced and cause a mini-panic attack. I am more used to it now, but when I first started taking it the panic was real.

There seem to be some inconsistencies as well:

I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid.

From another thread titled B6:

It inhibits COM/COMT and as such increases plasma levels of dopamine and norepinephrine.

These seem to be contradictory. From my experience it definitely increases adrenaline. My questions are, is there anything other then food (to combat the lower blood sugar from the lower cortisol) that would lower the adrenal response from B6? Does P5P actually lower or raise adrenal response?

The effect seems to be dose-dependent. In lower doses B6 can lower adrenalin but in higher doses (100mg PChl or 25mg+ P5P) it can raise it due to the inhibition of COMT. It those higher doses it will also raise dopamine since COMT is responsible for dopamine degradation too. Can you try a lower dose of P5P - say 5mg?

 

[Tarmander]

Sorry to revive this thread, but seeing as how I have been taking B6 lately I had some questions.

I have been taking P5P sublingually at 10mg doses and below. I notice that after I take it, temps really rise. I definitely see lower cortisol, and hence lower blood sugar. However I also get an adrenaline response, either directly from the B6 or from the lower blood sugar. I am guessing it is probably a combination, and eating with the B6 can help lower that adrenaline response, but it does not take care of it. This adrenaline response can be quite pronounced and cause a mini-panic attack. I am more used to it now, but when I first started taking it the panic was real.

There seem to be some inconsistencies as well:

I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid.

From another thread titled B6:

It inhibits COM/COMT and as such increases plasma levels of dopamine and norepinephrine.

These seem to be contradictory. From my experience it definitely increases adrenaline. My questions are, is there anything other then food (to combat the lower blood sugar from the lower cortisol) that would lower the adrenal response from B6? Does P5P actually lower or raise adrenal response?

The effect seems to be dose-dependent. In lower doses B6 can lower adrenalin but in higher doses (100mg PChl or 25mg+ P5P) it can raise it due to the inhibition of COMT. It those higher doses it will also raise dopamine since COMT is responsible for dopamine degradation too. Can you try a lower dose of P5P - say 5mg?

I'm probably taking between 7-10mg per day, I can try lowering that, however then it's effect at lowering glucose will not be as pronounced I think. Is there something else I can add in that would lower the adrenaline?

Also, my pee recently has smelled strongly of ammonia, is there some relationship there?

 

[haidut]

Sorry to revive this thread, but seeing as how I have been taking B6 lately I had some questions.

I have been taking P5P sublingually at 10mg doses and below. I notice that after I take it, temps really rise. I definitely see lower cortisol, and hence lower blood sugar. However I also get an adrenaline response, either directly from the B6 or from the lower blood sugar. I am guessing it is probably a combination, and eating with the B6 can help lower that adrenaline response, but it does not take care of it. This adrenaline response can be quite pronounced and cause a mini-panic attack. I am more used to it now, but when I first started taking it the panic was real.

There seem to be some inconsistencies as well:

I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid.

From another thread titled B6:

It inhibits COM/COMT and as such increases plasma levels of dopamine and norepinephrine.

These seem to be contradictory. From my experience it definitely increases adrenaline. My questions are, is there anything other then food (to combat the lower blood sugar from the lower cortisol) that would lower the adrenal response from B6? Does P5P actually lower or raise adrenal response?

The effect seems to be dose-dependent. In lower doses B6 can lower adrenalin but in higher doses (100mg PChl or 25mg+ P5P) it can raise it due to the inhibition of COMT. It those higher doses it will also raise dopamine since COMT is responsible for dopamine degradation too. Can you try a lower dose of P5P - say 5mg?

I'm probably taking between 7-10mg per day, I can try lowering that, however then it's effect at lowering glucose will not be as pronounced I think. Is there something else I can add in that would lower the adrenaline?

Also, my pee recently has smelled strongly of ammonia, is there some relationship there?

I would not expect B6 to cause issues with ammonia. It's supposed to increase the utilization of protein. How much protein are you eating daily and in one meal?
There is some data on vitamin E reducing adrenalin so you can try it with B6. Zinc lowers ammonia and also lowers cortisol. So, if B6 is not sitting well with you you can try zinc.

 

[Tarmander]

Sorry to revive this thread, but seeing as how I have been taking B6 lately I had some questions.

I have been taking P5P sublingually at 10mg doses and below. I notice that after I take it, temps really rise. I definitely see lower cortisol, and hence lower blood sugar. However I also get an adrenaline response, either directly from the B6 or from the lower blood sugar. I am guessing it is probably a combination, and eating with the B6 can help lower that adrenaline response, but it does not take care of it. This adrenaline response can be quite pronounced and cause a mini-panic attack. I am more used to it now, but when I first started taking it the panic was real.

There seem to be some inconsistencies as well:

I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid.

From another thread titled B6:

It inhibits COM/COMT and as such increases plasma levels of dopamine and norepinephrine.

These seem to be contradictory. From my experience it definitely increases adrenaline. My questions are, is there anything other then food (to combat the lower blood sugar from the lower cortisol) that would lower the adrenal response from B6? Does P5P actually lower or raise adrenal response?

The effect seems to be dose-dependent. In lower doses B6 can lower adrenalin but in higher doses (100mg PChl or 25mg+ P5P) it can raise it due to the inhibition of COMT. It those higher doses it will also raise dopamine since COMT is responsible for dopamine degradation too. Can you try a lower dose of P5P - say 5mg?

I'm probably taking between 7-10mg per day, I can try lowering that, however then it's effect at lowering glucose will not be as pronounced I think. Is there something else I can add in that would lower the adrenaline?

Also, my pee recently has smelled strongly of ammonia, is there some relationship there?

I would not expect B6 to cause issues with ammonia. It's supposed to increase the utilization of protein. How much protein are you eating daily and in one meal?
There is some data on vitamin E reducing adrenalin so you can try it with B6. Zinc lowers ammonia and also lowers cortisol. So, if B6 is not sitting well with you you can try zinc.

Interesting. I eat a lot of protein, probably over 100g. I wonder if the increased utilization of protein is increasing the breakdown of the protein I am already eating. I will give the vitamin e a try. I take zinc at night already. I think I'll try just backing off on the p5p. Thanks for the pointers haidut, you're really an asset to this forum.

 

[haidut]

Sorry to revive this thread, but seeing as how I have been taking B6 lately I had some questions.

I have been taking P5P sublingually at 10mg doses and below. I notice that after I take it, temps really rise. I definitely see lower cortisol, and hence lower blood sugar. However I also get an adrenaline response, either directly from the B6 or from the lower blood sugar. I am guessing it is probably a combination, and eating with the B6 can help lower that adrenaline response, but it does not take care of it. This adrenaline response can be quite pronounced and cause a mini-panic attack. I am more used to it now, but when I first started taking it the panic was real.

There seem to be some inconsistencies as well:

I have posted a number of studies over the last year showing that vitamin B6 acts acts as an anti-adrenalin and anti-glucocorticoid.

From another thread titled B6:

It inhibits COM/COMT and as such increases plasma levels of dopamine and norepinephrine.

These seem to be contradictory. From my experience it definitely increases adrenaline. My questions are, is there anything other then food (to combat the lower blood sugar from the lower cortisol) that would lower the adrenal response from B6? Does P5P actually lower or raise adrenal response?

The effect seems to be dose-dependent. In lower doses B6 can lower adrenalin but in higher doses (100mg PChl or 25mg+ P5P) it can raise it due to the inhibition of COMT. It those higher doses it will also raise dopamine since COMT is responsible for dopamine degradation too. Can you try a lower dose of P5P - say 5mg?

I'm probably taking between 7-10mg per day, I can try lowering that, however then it's effect at lowering glucose will not be as pronounced I think. Is there something else I can add in that would lower the adrenaline?

Also, my pee recently has smelled strongly of ammonia, is there some relationship there?

I would not expect B6 to cause issues with ammonia. It's supposed to increase the utilization of protein. How much protein are you eating daily and in one meal?
There is some data on vitamin E reducing adrenalin so you can try it with B6. Zinc lowers ammonia and also lowers cortisol. So, if B6 is not sitting well with you you can try zinc.

Interesting. I eat a lot of protein, probably over 100g. I wonder if the increased utilization of protein is increasing the breakdown of the protein I am already eating. I will give the vitamin e a try. I take zinc at night already. I think I'll try just backing off on the p5p. Thanks for the pointers haidut, you're really an asset to this forum.

If protein is not properly balanced by carbs, it will raise cortisol and will contribute to increase of ammonia. Also, individual doses of protein should not be more than 25g - 30g. That seems to the maximum a body can metabolize in one sitting and for younger people (under 30) even 25g may be too much. Older people seem to need higher individual doses but that's b/c they utilize less of it so need to ear more and in the process contribute to their already high ammonia and cortisol.
Most studies in young people show optimal response to ~20g of protein. Ray also said that only very very active people like athletes or people doing heavy physical work need about 120g daily. Most people should be able to achieve positive nitrogen balance with 80g - 100g. Finally, you can try essential amino acid supplementation instead of protein. This results in almost 100% nitrogen utilization and you can get by on just 30% of the protein you typically eat. So, if you eat 120g of protein daily by using essential amino acids you can get by on about 40g of amino acids with the added benefit that there will be no increase of ammonia and other toxic byproducts of protein metabolism. Here is the thread on amino acids:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7269

 

[tara]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/95060/ Ray also said that only very very active people like athletes or people doing heavy physical work need about 120g daily.

Not to say you aren't right about protein needs, Haidut, but at some point Peat also said that he didn't feel good on less than about 150g protein a day, and there's a quote around somewhere of him talking about a typical 3000 cal diet, and IIRC, at least 150g of it being protein.

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96115/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/95060/ Ray also said that only very very active people like athletes or people doing heavy physical work need about 120g daily.

Not to say you aren't right about protein needs, Haidut, but at some point Peat also said that he didn't feel good on less than about 150g protein a day, and there's a quote around somewhere of him talking about a typical 3000 cal diet, and IIRC, at least 150g of it being protein.

Yeah, I am aware of this other statement of his but I am pretty sure several of his articles talk about 80g daily being a good amount and in the collection of email exchanges he has told people that 120g is needed only by very active people. So, not sure what to make of it except maybe assume this is the optimal range - i.e. no less than 80g and no more than 150g. I am not surprised Peat needs 150g daily. Older people need much higher amounts of protein to achieve positive nitrogen balance.

 

[tara]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96193/ Yeah, I am aware of this other statement of his but I am pretty sure several of his articles talk about 80g daily being a good amount and in the collection of email exchanges he has told people that 120g is needed only by very active people. So, not sure what to make of it except maybe assume this is the optimal range - i.e. no less than 80g and no more than 150g. I am not surprised Peat needs 150g daily. Older people need much higher amounts of protein to achieve positive nitrogen balance.

Yeah, this makes sense to me. Optimal may be different for each of us depending on how well me can make use of and eliminate the by products of protein, but probably in the range of 80 - 150g for most people.

 

[docall18]

post 83381 Some of the B vitamins, especially B2, can be very allergenic. B6 doesn't affect the others very much; 10 mg per day is a big dose.

Its effects are usually visible immediately, or within a few days, if it's going to be helpful.

I am one of the ones who found B6 (10mg P5P) very helpfull. I get amazing benefits from it, more than all other supplements together, so I must have been very deficient in it.

When i initially started taking it I was so stimulated I could hardly sleep two hours a night. I eventually discovered that I also needed to take zinc (30mg), and vitamin C (3g) with it.

I think I had a condition called Pyroluria. Pyroluria is caused by a deficiency of B6, zinc, Manganese, Biotin etc. According to the link below, when you start to treat pyroluria a lot of copper and heavy metals get stirred up. Without zinc and vitamin C plus other 'detox' supps, I get symptoms of high copper ie. bloating, IBS, insomnia, over-stimulated mind.
http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/powerpoints/hpu 2009.pdf

 

[Braveheart]

Yeah, I am aware of this other statement of his but I am pretty sure several of his articles talk about 80g daily being a good amount and in the collection of email exchanges he has told people that 120g is needed only by very active people. So, not sure what to make of it except maybe assume this is the optimal range - i.e. no less than 80g and no more than 150g. I am not surprised Peat needs 150g daily. Older people need much higher amounts of protein to achieve positive nitrogen balance.

I'm 70 and average 120g daily...feel satisfied with that....feels good.

 

[Greg says]

I would not expect B6 to cause issues with ammonia. It's supposed to increase the utilization of protein. How much protein are you eating daily and in one meal?
There is some data on vitamin E reducing adrenalin so you can try it with B6. Zinc lowers ammonia and also lowers cortisol. So, if B6 is not sitting well with you you can try zinc.

I have been taking a high quality liquid P5P. Just 5mg with food. Done this twice, my god, I felt awful, whooshing butterflies, depressed and anxious.