Home > Health, Studies, Supps & Pharmaceuticals > Supplements > Vitamins > Water-Soluble Vitamins > B1 > Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency: The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency: The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses

  1. "In this video, Dr. Berg talks about vitamin B deficiency. Transketolase is the enzyme for vitamin B deficiency test. Enzymes are the things that do the work in the body and B1 is involved in 5 different enzymes. Vitamin B1 deficiency is called Beri Beri and known as a great mimicker of disease. He also talks about several reasons to why you become deficient in B1."

     
  2. Something Ive noticed over the months and years since I heard about Berg and started watching his videos is he slowly has diverged away from being the in-your-face keto IF guru. He still blatantly recommends keto and IF of course. Now he has increased his informative videos content to try and branch out and increase viewership. I always found it interesting that often times when I see his videos on my youtube feed they are sometimes bizarrely relevant to what is talked about here a lot. Carnivores, ketoers rarely talk or research about manganese, B1, potassium or micronutrients in general. For the carnivores its just "eat meat, drink water, eggs/dairy/organs optional" and keto is all about fat bombs and vegetables. Clearly the keto community icons have been learning from Peat or at least trying to learn actual nutritional science because the lowering insulin talk gets redundant.

    I also notice that that are many many videos he has made talking about improving energy levels which is bizarre seeing as keto is supposed to be the fountain of youth and supposed to give you the best energy as possible.

    Despite the fact that he is an adamant keto guru, its good news that he is getting information out there, especially about B1. Even ketoers can benefit from B1. Good at making short and informative videos, I'll give him that. Truth is truth regardless of who it comes from.
     
  3. I think this is the first time I heard of him. He just popped up in my youtube feed but he seemed to be pretty dialed in with this video.

    I wish I would have caught the B train a long time ago because it would have saved me a lot of suffering. :(

    Just ran across this quote from Peat from "Nutrition For Women:

    "[..]extra carbohydrate will make you need more vitamin B1."

    @hattip @Amazoniac for posting that quote in the thread below which is a gold mine of health nuggets:
    Nutrition For Women - Selected Parts
     
  4. I took pretty decent dosages of B1 for months, to the point where some of my nails started flattening out presumably from lack of iron. I have seen a few Dr.s recommend it as their go to when they are having a tough time diagnosing something. It probably has a lot of potential.

    With that said, it never impressed me that much. For all this promise the delivery was substandard. I have heard this is because it is poorly absorbed, and I never got into the fat soluble kinds, so maybe that is where the potential lies.
     
  5. That and making sure to get adequate magnesium along with the other b-vitamins their co-factors. Amazoniac et el has shown that B1 deficiency sometimes cannot be fixed until another B deficiency has been addressed. Then the ATP magic happens.
     
  6. And what is the other B deficiency that needed to be addressed first Charlie?
     
  7. I cannot remember off the top of my head but will see if I can hunt it down. @Amazoniac might know off hand.
     
  8. I hope you're not experiencing too much of that - the tip of the tongue syndrome. I've been getting a lot of that lately. Seems like amyloid plaque on my brain. Been blaming it on endotoxins, but it could also be from b1 deficiency. Seeing your thread made me realize I needed a b1 recharge. I've been sluggish lately, my blood sugar's high 2 hours after a meal (at 103 where normally it's at 85). I realize now it's likely a b1 deficiency, as I've experienced a lot of more than usual urinating for 2 months now, and that it would have exhausted by b1 (as well as potassium). It may also be affecting my memory, which hasn't been this bad before.
     
  9. It's what you already know: they can't do much on their own and it's very likely that deficiencies appear in clusters.

    There should be a thread entitled 'Therapeutic adequacy relying on multiples of the RDAs'. Something like: 1.5x electrolytes, 6x energy B-vitamins, 2x methylation B-vitamins (except choline), 2.5x trace minerals. It would only require minor adjustments.
     
  10. No I just plain forgot. lol I been reading so much on B's lately, so much to take in. But like Amazoniac said they run in a constellation so best to get them all covered as best as possible along with magnesium and the other B co-factors.
     
  11. I will be waiting. :ss2
     
  12. So basically a Myers cocktail? They do some amazing things but they have been around for a long time. I’d still recommend them
     
  13. This info below was posted a couple years ago on the acne.org, wonder if VA overload is the root of B1 deficiencies, since we need to convert to RA to excrete VA.

    I tried high dose B1/B2 previous to my low VA diet, with limit success. Trying allithiamine with low VA diet may be a novel way to get B1 back online. I may get some to test out, 10 months of low VA have done wonders for me, so I don't think it would hurt to experiment.


    =====
    Retinoic acid = decreased Transketolase (thiamine deficiency)

    Accutane inhibits hippocampal neurogenesis by using up the NADPH reducing cofactor... Thiamine

    NADPH needed as a CYP26A cofactor for retinoic acid detoxification.

    NADPH (B1) and FAD (B2) cofactors should be promoted.



    Proteomic approach reveals novel targets for retinoic acid-mediated therapy of thyroid carcinoma.

    Our previous studies demonstrated that retinoic acid (RA)-induced reduction of both, the key glycolytic enzyme ENO1 and proliferation-promoting c-Myc, resulted in decreased vitality and invasiveness of the follicular thyroid carcinoma cell lines FTC-133 and FTC-238. By employing two-dimensional electrophoresis and mass spectrometry, we identified proteins affected by RA treatment. In addition to previously reported decrease in ENO1 expression, we found that RA led to significantly reduced levels of glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase (GAPDH), pyruvate kinase isoenzymes M1/M2 (PKM1/M2), peptidyl-prolyl cis-trans isomerase A (PPIA), transketolase (TKT), annexin A2 (ANXA2), glutathione S-transferase P (GSTP1) and peroxiredoxin 2 (PRDX2) as compared to untreated control.
    Proteomic approach reveals novel targets for retinoic acid-mediated therapy of thyroid carcinoma. - PubMed - NCBI

    Decreased transketolase activity contributes to impaired hippocampal neurogenesis induced by thiamine deficiency.

    Thiamine deficiency (TD) impairs hippocampal neurogenesis. However, the mechanisms involved are not identified. In this work, TD mouse model was generated using a thiamine-depleted diet at two time points, TD9 and TD14 for 9 and 14 days of TD respectively. The activities of pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), alpha-ketoglutamate dehydrogenase (KGDH), glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD), and transketolase (TK), as well as on the contents of NADP(+) and NADPH were determined in whole mouse brain, isolated cortex, and hippocampus of TD mice model. The effects of TK silencing on the growth and migratory ability of cultured hippocampal progenitor cells (HPC), as well as on neuritogenesis of hippocampal neurons were explored. The results showed that TD specifically reduced TK activity in both cortex and hippocampus, without significantly affecting the activities of PDH, KGDH, and G6PD in TD9 and TD14 groups. The level of whole brain and hippocampal NADPH in TD14 group were significantly lower than that of control group. TK silencing significantly inhibited the proliferation, growth, and migratory abilities of cultured HPC, without affecting neuritogenesis of cultured hippocampal neurons.Taken together, these results demonstrate that decreased TK activity leads to pentose-phosphate pathway dysfunction and contributes to impaired hippocampal neurogenesis induced by TD. TK and pentose-phosphate pathway may be considered new targets to investigate hippocampal neurogenesis.
    Decreased transketolase activity contributes to impaired hippocampal neurogenesis induced by thiamine deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI

    13-cis Retinoic acid (accutane) suppresses hippocampal cell survival in mice.

    Sakai Y1, Crandall JE, Brodsky J, McCaffery P.
    Author information

    Abstract
    Use of the acne drug Accutane (13-cis retinoic acid, [13-cis RA]) has been associated with severe depression. This association has been considered controversial because no causative link has been found between 13-cis RA and this disorder. A recent hypothesis has suggested that atrophy of the hippocampus can result in depression. We now show, in a mouse model, that endogenous RA generated by synthetic enzymes in the meninges acts on hippocampal granule neurons, and chronic (3-week) exposure to a clinical dose of 13-cis RA may result in hippocampal cell loss. In humans this may be conjectured to be the mechanism by which Accutane contributes to depression.

    also..
    http://www.accutaneaction.com/Studies/2004_Sakai.pdf
     
  14. Boom! I knew it! Hot diggity dog. Just like Dr. Lonsdale says,,, B12 and Folate go high( I think the context was Autism patients) and throw things out of whack when there is a B1 deficiency. Then when B1 is brought back in the Folate and B12 come down because it is able to be metabolized correctly. I was thinking the same thing probably happens with vitamin A or something along those lines.

    Holy moly this is yuuuuuuge!
     
  15. Dr. Lonsdale feels magnesium is super important too and Amazoniac et el feels all the B's run as a complex.
     
  16. What else does folate and B12 have in common? They are photoreceptors (look that up). Your light environment determine how you metabolize those vitamins...
     
  17. I tried all the Mg forms when testing the B1/B2 experiments, along with higher dose non active Bs. MgCl topically and orally, glycinate, etc... Connecting the dots, I think allithiamine is the next experiment, after some time under zero/low VA diet.

    There were lots of forums discussing 1600mg B1 HCl per day, to get it back online, tried this for a few months, with Mg and all the other Bs, no real movement in health in a positive direction, but no negatives either. I think getting VA depleted or out of overload territory could be helpful here.
     
  18. Please let us know how it goes.
     
  19. Very important, thank you!
     
  20. There are variations on it, but the proportions are odd.

    - 100 mg thiamine HCl
    - 2 mg riboflavin
    - 100 mg nicotinamide
    - 0 mg choline
    - ~250 mg dexpanthenol
    - ~ 100 mg pyridoxine HCl
    - 0 mg biotin
    - 0 mg folate
    - 1 mg hydroxocobalamin
    ..

    Have you tried calcium chloride?

    Given that requirements are generalized to guarantee adequacy for most people, in theory this means that if the entire population suddenly started to need more, a great deal of them would still be covered.

    upload_2019-9-8_19-36-43.png

    upload_2019-9-8_19-36-54.png

    Nevertheless, for safe nutrients, it's better to err on the side of abundance when someone has to recover. Logging a diet on nutrition apps might give the impression that it's adequate if you judge by default targets, when in reality it's not.
     
  21. Yes but the amounts you need to take to get good calcium levels is massive.
     
  22.  
  23. And calcium chloride is an acidic load, especially when taken at large dosage. But @Amazoniac, I'm not getting the relevance of calcium chloride on a discussion on vitamin b1, nor to the Myers cocktail. Also, isn't the Myers cocktail for IV use? Is the cocktail you had broken down into constituents already adjusted for oral consumption?
     
  24. Amazoniac knows I take a nice amount of Betaine HCL and he is often suggesting a different way to get chloride for me.

    Yes Myer's cocktail is an IV...we were talking about b complexes and myers has one in it directly delivered into your vein verse oral consumption.
     
  25. Charlie, toward the end of the video, he discourages use of synthetic B1 for basic needs due to its questionable manufacturing with substances like ammonia and coal tar. I've been checking out other links and looking on the forum for some backup of this concern but find none. I've been taking Thiamine HCL caps from PureBulk and hope it isn't as bad as that, especially if their source is China, as some here claim.

    Assuming you are supplementing B1, what have you found to be a good source, and is switching to benfotamine or allithiamine a better choice if there is concern in the processing/origin issues?

    I appreciate his suggestion of at least combining single Bs with food and/or B complex for synergy. I have non-fortified nutritional yeast, and it's what I'm using when I take my Bs, always with food in general, and even started applying liquid Bs on my skin with MgChloride.
     
  26. btw - do you boil the yeast and only consume the liquid-extracted b-vits? Ray mentioned the yeast itself as having an estrogenic substance that isn't water soluble. Haidut has mentioned this somewhere too
     
  27. For regular Thiamine I use this one:
    B1 Thiamine HCl Powder USP - 50 Grams

    For Allithiamine I use this one but looking for a cleaner source:
    https://www.amazon.com/Ecological-Formulas-Allithiamine-Vitamin-Capsule/dp/B001Y9WZ5O

    And for Lipothiaine I use this one but again looking for a better source:
    https://www.amazon.com/Cardiovascular-Research-Lipothiamine-White-Count/dp/B002GODI7U/
     
  28. I am using the Allithiamine and Lipothiamine temporarily just in case I have a protein transport issue but plan on using Thiamine HCL solely in the near future. I prefer the thiamine hcl because it is cheaper and no excipients.
     
  29. How much thiamine hcl do you plan on dosing @charlie
     
  30. I see. Are you basically going by how you feel on these 2 before switching back? Curious how one would know. Just visited Lonsdale's site and his article on TTFD. Interesting and amazing, per users' comments on helpfulness. Sounds like Dr. prefers Lipo version due to brain barrier function.
     
  31. Around 50 to 100 milligrams a few times a day. After a while I hope to be able to back down to a couple hundred milligrams a day. Just gotta see how it goes.
     
  32. I assume you do mean 50-100mg HCL form, not Alli- or Lipo-? How much Lipo do you take, and is there a best time of day?
     
  33. I have been mixing and matching right now, just kinda jumping around testing different levels of each. Like today, I am mostly doing Alli and Lipo and will prolly do this a couple days then go heavy on the HCL a few days. There has been discussion that tapering off towards the evening so sleep is not affected. Dr. Lonsdale feels a person should start out low and slow because "refeeding" syndrome can happen. Then work your way up. He says he has seen no toxicity problems with thiamine. He also says magnesium should be taken with it. He also says Thiamine does not deplete any of the other B's.
     
  34. Thanks for clarifying. This is so interesting. I am really enjoying the various articles and Q&A on his website. Seems more than coincidence that thiamine was named B-1, given the exhaustive list of benefits as well not affecting other Bs when taken solo.

    btw- he says this: Allithiamine (AL) and Lipothiamine (LI) are both TTFD. The only differences are: AL is powdered so the dose can be split:LI is an enteric coated tablet of 50 mg TTFD to pass it through stomach acid to get to the small intestine where thiamine is absorbed. Both are available from Ecological Formulas on line.

    I was a little confused by the brand names. I have only found AL by Ecological Formulas, and LI by Cardiovascular Research (but something tells me they may be from the same parent company).

    Then, is it not necessary to take both AL and LI, or are you just deciding between brands given their undesirable excipients (I'm not finding any other brands besides EF and CVR)?
     
  35. His book looks interesting, but quite expensive!
     
  36. In the link you posted in a recent thread to his article on thiamine and allergies, Lonsdale mentions in the comments the importance of thiamine, manganese, and riboflavin for energy. You've mentioned magnesium a few times but does he not recommend manganese in addition?
     
  37. Well technically he does because he recommends a multivitamin. I am getting most my manganese from maple syrup.
     
  38. Well then he doesn't seem to be worried about high doses of supplemental thiamine depleting low doses of manganese from diet and multivitamin.
     
  39. I have not seen any indication that is a concern for him. He mostly keys on magnesium.
     
  40. Does he recommend a form? Citrate and oxide reach bowel tolerance quickly. Glycinate and taurate sedate over time. Aspartate is excitotoxic. Chloride applied externally might work. Malate and threonate seem most promising.
     
  41. He does but I cannot remember which one. I use magnesium bicarbonate.
     
  42. @charlie and @Orion I have used Allithiamine since early Jan 2016...immediate benefits of energy...by March 2016 I added B2 and saw more energy benefits. Last spring I added in Inositol with another increase. Still taking B vitamins, sometimes using unfortified yeast, and couldn't handle the boiling water dose. Mid Oct 2018 started low Vitamin A diet....with even more energy increase. Now I cannot do too many B's without it upsetting my body...still have other issues, but energy has been restored, PTL.
     
  43. Good to hear @Trix Same for me, low VA has given my energy back, always feel rested after minimal sleep. Also I do not get hangovers from any amount of alcohol binge ingested, this is a huge change. I plan on testing small amounts of allithiamine to see of I react, currently take a divided Bcomplex that gives 10mg's or 10mcg's of the Bs, which seems enough for me.
     
  44. which B complex Orion?

    Same for alcohol with me, but only with bourbon/whiskey/scotch. A few beers still makes me feel a bit off the next day
     
  45. I use this one, dividing the pill in 4, take a 1/4 pill most days.
    B Complex
     
  46. No concern for the excipients @Orion
     
  47. Would like a cleaner one, but its inexpensive and the small dosage seems to agree with me.
     
  48. Posted this in the VA thread as well:

    Tested allithiamine the last 5 days(~10mg/day).

    Did not go well; decreased mood, increased fatigue, frequent night wakings, colder hands and feet. Seems to drive carb metabolism to much in me, carbs used up to quickly?, stress response and like fat metabolism gets turned off. Assuming it skews the B1/B2 ratio to much, I did take extra B2 with it.

    Did not get this response from high dose B1 HCl and B2. That said it could be quite useful for some, seems quite powerful stuff.
     
  49. It could be the refeeding paradox that Dr. Lonsdale talks about.
     
  50. Ok that makes a little more sense, I may have to test again in awhile, might wait for some months to get circulating VA down a little lower as well.

    "Derrick Lonsdale says:
    August 8, 2017 at 9:39 am
    You ARE “flying blind” because very few physicians know about “paradox”. It also has been mentioned on this website as “refeeding syndrome”. When you have been deficient in thiamin, in particular, for a long time, the paradox is apt to be prolonged because you are resuscitating a mechanism that has been broken. It is too difficult at a technical level to explain refeeding syndrome or paradox. It is to do with an explosion in oxygen utilization. The longer you have been deficient, the longer the paradox and it is entirely and completely unpredictable. My experience over many years is that it is the best prediction of ultimate success. It is encoded in the saying “there is no gain without pain”. Jason has evidence of multiple B complex vitamin deficiencies and he would benefit best from intravenous vitamins or multiple injections of B complex."
     
  51. I have some benfo on the way to try. Orion do you think trying much less would work for you? like a few mg?
     
  52. Started reading through all the Dr. Lonsdale comments on the posts over at
    Hormones Mattter
    seems that low and slow are the way to go, with 50mg/day being low, getting to 100mg X 3 during the day, and trying to wait out the paradox/refeed symptoms, that could last up to a month. He does recommend alli or lipo over benfo(it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier). Just not sure what the duration of supping is to fully recover.

    The symptoms I got were miserable, so waiting it out would be tough, could be good to go really low and take your time, maybe skip some days.

    I think there is a connection here between vitamin A and thiamine, he mentions that excess sugar is the B1 deficiency creator, I think VA overload is another big contributor, with accutane crippling the system.
     
  53. If you find any noteworthy quotes and would like to post it to the thread below I would sincerely appreciate it. :hattip

    Quotes From Dr. Derrick Lonsdale
     
  54. Interesting.
    Have you stumbled across publications that hint at retinoids modulating b1 or is it a hunch?
     
  55. I am going to give thiamine a decent try, maybe try Alli if Benfo doesn't work. There are definitely some red flags with the treatment though, but given that the refeeding/detox/herx/whatever is only supposed to go on for a month, I think we can find out rather quickly if B1, VA, and this whole things are tied together.
     
  56. Yes, thanks @Orion. I‘ve read that already and forgotten. Thanks for sharing !
     
  57. I know that there is an activated form of thiamine which has different names Thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP or ThPP), or thiamine diphosphate (ThDP), or cocarboxylase, but the molecule is the same.
    This form is made from thiamine through the enzyme thiamine diphosphokinase and, as I see, like all other B vitamins, ATP is required. I don't understand, are there any advantages from the Вenfotiamine and Allithiamine compared to Thiamine pyrophosphate? They are described as a more bioavailable form, but exactly Thiamine pyrophosphate is the form of coenzyme that is used in the most important reactions, such as:

    I found some on sale:
    - Swanson Premium Activated Vitamin B-1 16 mg 30 Veg Caps - Swanson Health Products
    - Vitamin B1, Thiamine Pyrophosphate, 60 capsules by Metabolics

    Did anybody try something like this? And what is your opinion about this?
     
  58. Read through the comments on this article, Dr. Lonsdale says that cocarboxylase does not enter cells like alli or lipo.

    Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter
     
  59. I have been taking benfo for the last week and I have to say it is much different then thiamine HCL. I am surprised how different because I used to chug down Thiamine HCL and it was meh, but this stuff actually has an effect.

    Blood sugar control is much better with my Dexcom showing a flat blood sugar line where it used to spike a bit more. Going to continue and see what other nice things occur.
     
  60. I've been on Benfo for the past week as well. While Thiamine Hcl made me tired and weak in doses above 50 mg, Benfo makes me more alert. Don't notice muscular weakness or strength.

    The 250 mg Life Extension capsule feels pretty strong so after Monday I've been taking only half (with some fat).

    I've eaten a cup of white rice and 2 kgs of green grapes every day since Monday and it's all vanishing despite only one workout. Normally I would only eat half a cup of rice every day if I workout every other day. But I even felt during my workout that I had not eaten enough carbs.
     
  61. wow sounds like a good thing to try this benfo thiamine!
     
  62. Can a person simply take high doses of thiamine? Like 1000mg a day
     
  63. Hi EH, ever since I read Dr. Peat say that the bar exam candidates could access everything they learned if they took thiamine the day before examination during study and then directly before the exam, I've been experimenting with varying doses of thiamine hcl. All futile because the more I would take the more tired and demotivated I would get. I didn't figure out why at the time but came across Dr. Weil's webpage yesterday where he says drowsiness and muscular fatigue is a common side effect of thiamine supplementation (above 100mg?).

    When Charlie revived Dr. Lonsdale's ideas, I remembered B1 was also critical for glucose oxidation and wanted to experiment again. Only if I tapped 5-20 mg thiamine hcl out of the capsule with a meal did I not experience too much discomfort but there was certainly no perceivable benefit.

    I was attracted to Benfo over Alli or Lippo because I tend to want to maximize utility (17 bucks vs 30-40). Lonsdale prefers the latter two and isnt a fan of Benfo (because of some enzymatic reaction it has to undergo before being useful?) but I have not noticed a problem and feel that my body has been able to use it considering how much starch (white rice, Dutch potatoes) I've had to add to my diet in order to have energy in the gym. I wasn't taking Benfo for cognitive benefits but I may test it if I decide to go down the CPA route.

    Side note, I'm not trying to bash thiamine hcl, even though my last few posts have not been positive about it. Maybe the brand I was using was garbage (Swanson.. I haven't forgotten their TRAACS magnesium scandal). Benfotiamine is just so much better. I trust Japanese innovation.
     
  64. Benfotiamine increases glucose oxidation and downregulates NADPH oxidase 4 expression in cultured human myotubes exposed to both normal and high glucose concentrations

    " Benfotiamine significantly increased glucose oxidation under normoglycemic (35 and 49% increase at 100 and 200 μM benfotiamine, respectively) as well as hyperglycemic conditions (70% increase at 200 μM benfotiamine). Benfotiamine also increased glucose uptake. In comparison, thiamine (200 μM) increased overall glucose metabolism but did not change glucose oxidation"
     
  65. I've been taking benfo. I have been gaining like 5 pounds the past week. However, strangely, my pants aren't any tighter. If anything they are looser. I'm going to continue. I'm taking 100mg a day. And about 100mg or so of niacinamide spread out over 3 doses.

    I'm not happy about this sudden weight gain either. But I don't think it is fat gain.
     
  66. Just glancing around I noticed Dr. Berg is pretty different in approach than Peat. He seems aligned with the whole idea that low-carb is ideal for diabetes 2, which kind of goes against the idea here that restricting carbs is usually not a solution but maybe a band-aid at best for certain illnesses.

    Not saying he makes bad points with B1, but at what level we can consider something "anti-Peat" is probably always going to be debatable. For example, people will -- on the surface level at least -- might be bound to consider anyone pro carbs, dairy, sugar, salt, etc. to be Peaty. The thing is when we branch out or approach subjects differently you get a mixed up idea on Peat-like principles and kind of thinking somewhat outside the "Peat box" you could say (like with the whole Vit. A toxicity & such).

    But also, isn't it true that many deficiencies can technically mimic various conditions anyways? I don't think this is limited to B1 problems only. Niacin/stomach/brain are connected too, along with the addition of various other combinations everything can work in.
     
  67. I have gained a few pounds as well..I thought it might have been some licorice in one of the supplements I was testing out but maybe it's the benfo?
     
  68. I've read in other forums that large doses of B1 will deplete B2 faster. And this is likely the case for sure if you are dosing regularly. B2 is needed for burning fat and activating the other B-vitamins. You are likely losing the ability to burn fats.


    Read what I wrote to tarmander. Are you supplementing the other Bs in some what similar doses? It appears too easy to disrupt the other Bs when not supplementing others. B1 will drop B2 and no doubt the others. You gained a few pounds, which is likely fat but because thiamine is very good at reducing edema you are holding on to less water in general.

    It is probably a good idea to always have the other Bs supplemented then higher doses of one will not cause imbalance. Just my 2 cents.

    For example my B complex:

    25mg B1
    20mg B2
    25mg B3
    5mg B6
    400mcg folic acid
    1mg biotin
    5.5mg pantothenic acid
    60mg vitamin C

    And along with that I have been dosing 100mg B2 and 2g vitamin C per meal for a personal experiment. That way I always have a baseline to keep up with higher doses of B2(or B1 in your case). I can take the B complex as many times as I need or even just once a day. But its always there to back up my higher doses of B2 and C. I have never not screwed myself from just taking a few Bs and not taking others.
     
  69. That was VERY interesting! Thanks for posting this!
     
  70. What is Alli and Lippo?
     
  71. Allithiamine and Lipotiamine I presume. As far as I am aware they contain fat or some other molecules that allow them to absorb from gut better and get into cells better. Some docs recommend these over regular thiamine although they are more expensive.
     
  72. Thanks! Yeah that's what I thought....didn't read all the posts that mentioned this
     
  73. thank you. Good points.
     
  74. I like Dr. Berg. But he is very anti- fructose. Total opposite of Dr. Peat. In fact the keto-ian's think fructose is evil. Even worse than sugar. Still haven't figured that out. He does recommend the keto "approved" fruits like berries in small amounts. That's what bothers me about Keto. IMO fruit is great for the nutrients and fiber it provides.
     
  75. Benfotiamine compared to Thiamine HCl is like night and day. Better be ready with the carbs if you're gonna dip into Benfoland. Amazing sugar oxidation potential. Almost impossible for me to stay ahead of the sugar needs but I am giving it my all to see where it goes. Loading up on carbs before hand and also after is a necessity for myself. I also notice magnesium and potassium are called on heavily.

    I know someone personally with extreme beriberi(wet beriberi and dry beriberi) and they started on Benfotiamine today, hoping for the best. Beriberi was diagnosed by the hospital but they said there is nothing they can do. Can you freaking believe it? Scandalous.
     
  76. When you say "Benfotiamine compared to Thiamine HCI is like night and day" do you mean Benfotiamine is superior to Thiamine HCI in what it does for you?
     
  77. Yes mam, I feel that Benfotiamine and Allithiamine are superior to Thiamine HCl. Dr. Lonsdale and his work has shown that the transport mechanism can be broken which delivers thiamine into the cells. The fat soluble thiamines(Benfo and Alli) bypass this broken mechanism and drives the thiamine to where it needs to be. Also, if you check out the study posted above Benfo has incredible sugar oxidation powers, more then HCl. With that said I still take a bit of HCl but have been bringing in the fat solubles thiamines with it.
     
  78. I already take the Thiamine HCl and feel pretty good with it, but if these other ones are superior, which one should I try first: the Benfotiamine or Allithiamine? Is there one that's better if you are a low methylator?
     
  79. How much fat is needed with Benfo to ensure optimal absorption?
     
  80. Ok just read that BeriBeri article by Dr. Lonsdale. If Beriberi is a disease that developes from widespread "ingestion of sugar", why do you need to up your carbs if you are taking the Benfotiamine?
     
  81. You need Thiamine to oxidize sugar. If your intake is low and you eat carbs you will get deficient. Benfotiamine increases sugar oxidation, which can increase your carbohydrate requirement.
     
  82. What Haidut said about B1 in this thread (he sounds like the forum expert) sounds reasonable:Vitamin B1 Dosage

    I'm going to try the Allithiamine, because according to him, he says it gets into all areas of your body
     
  83. Also he said the regular oral Thiamine absorbs well......so guess it's a choice with what you want to use for a specific purpose. He says he takes it 3 X a day at 1500 mg but not sure if he meant the Alli or just regular Thiamine
     
  84. I tried 50mg of Alli today. Can't say I have noticed much of a difference yet other then some heightened frustration.

    Your telling me I have arrived in the Peat utopia from a couple weeks of benfo at around 100mg?
     
  85. If benfotiamine was all you were taking at 100mg a day all the B1 was using up the other Bs as all the B vitamins play a role in energy production. The more initial sparks you light(this is what B1 is, a spark) the more of the other vitamins you need by definition to keep the fuel burning. Not burning fat because you lack or have less of the essential vitamins to do it is bad news.

    Of course you will always burn fat and sugar simultaneously, as some tissues burn fat preferentially that is just how it is, you don't want to handicap your ability to burn fats, unless you want fat to keep piling on slowly but surely. Of course maybe I'm wrong, I don't know everything, but I am pretty confident that isolated Bs will always cause more energy production problems then it solves.
     
  86. Well it should be easy to test right? Take some B2 and see if the weight drops.

    I can tell you though, I have messed around with B2 quite a bit and I usually get a nice muscle pump, but no weight loss from it.
     
  87. Nice Charlie!

    I wish I had the time and the appetite to eat all the carbs a daily benfo regimen requires. Need more potatoes and OJ.
     
  88. Yeh because it breaks down noradrenaline a lot by increasing MAO-A which will dilate the veins instead of vasoconstriction which is what noradrenaline does. I also get my veins popping out 24/7 how they used to when I was younger taking B2. Its great for that.
     
  89. I think starting with HCl might be optimal to get things going, then slowly bring in the fat soluble B1's. Easing into it seems prudent. Starting with a full dose of fat soluble B1 is probably unwise. Dr. Lonsdale felt it should be started low and increased slowly too.
     
  90. I use a quarter, half, or full capsule depending on the amount of carbs I'm eating. And I stopped taking Benfo two days in a row because I don't want to lose too much weight.
     
  91. OCT1 is a high-capacity thiamine transporter that regulates hepatic steatosis and is a target of metformin (OCT1 is a high-capacity thiamine transporter that regulates hepatic steatosis and is a target of metformin)

    "We next demonstrate that OCT1 is a major hepatic transporter for thiamine, vitamin B1, and that Oct1 deficiency results in reduced hepatic levels of thiamine and its active metabolite, thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP). In parallel experiments, we show that dietary restriction of thiamine decreases hepatic steatosis, while increasing phosphorylation of AMPK and ACC. These studies suggest that the mechanism by which Oct1 deficiency modulates hepatic steatosis is related to decreased levels of thiamine and TPP in the liver, resulting in a change in hepatic energy status."

    Maybe the supplemented thiamine remains in the liver, while its fate should be elsewhere.

    Or it might not have anything to do with your weight gains, but I find that interesting nonetheless.

    PS: I received my Allithiamine supplement. I tried one 50mg friday night and slept through the night without having to go to the bathroom. Was also the case saturday night.
     
  92. Allithiamine is kind of kicking my butt. 50mg per day for the last few days. Have only had 6 hours of sleep per night the last few nights, usually divided up into 3 hour chunks. Luckily work has been slow and I have been able to nap a bit during the day. But I think I will take a break for awhile, or go back to benfo.

    Positives are pretty amazing. Body feels really different. There is a suppleness, a flexibility that was there when I was younger but forgot about. All water weight is gone, much more defined in the legs and arms. I feel skinny. It is hard to describe but my stomach and body feel lithe and thin.

    Pretty cool but the sleep aspect is undermining it all.
     
  93. Same I have stopped testing 50mg per day as well, it revs up metabolism, like being on lots of T3, sleep deteriorates and big stress response, cold hands/feets, night sweats, can't eat enough to keep up. It took me about 5 days to get back to baseline after stopping. First 2 days testing felt great, good mood, deep sleep, warm all over, but then it opens the flood gates. Probably will test again soon, but smaller doses and in greater intervals.
     
  94. No doubt lactic acid has been greatly reduced and most glycogen has been burnt; however, do you also feel like nitric oxide has been lowered? The way you describe having lost water weight, feeling skinny, and noticing a difference in/on your stomach is very much how I feel from benfotiamine, gamma tocopherol, and methylene blue. I find myself overeating carbs and salt to compensate for the lack of bloat and pump that had been a feature of my life for years.
     
  95. Interesting post by @Ihor

     
  96. Yeah I am going to do a meyer's cocktail later today, 20g of vitamin C. Usually a nice way to reset things.
     
  97. So basically back to the old Peat problem...we can push on metabolism but sustaining it is the issue. Amazing how many years it took for us to figure out that this is the order of things. Fuel ---> increased Metabolism...not the other way around which we all tried so hard to make work. I felt great the first couple days as well, and then downhill. Thankfully I did not get the adrenal reaction you described but I did lose a bit of my hair line.

    This sounds accurate. No lactic acid and low glycogen.
     
  98. Has anyone tried Allicin? I bought some allimax and noticed better skin, calmer gut, without some of the insomnia from Allithiamine. Might be worth trying