Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency: The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses

[Sulcuscentralis]

Like I said I highly doubt the B vitamins that grains are fortified with are enough to imitate what happen to this user. But the high dose B complex and zinc supplementation for 3 years causing massive weight gain speaks for itself. So in that way maybe, but from food likely no.

What form of creatine do you guys use?

Just the simple monohydrate. Don't waste money on special forms 3-5g/day and no loading phase.

 

[stackz07]

Just the simple monohydrate. Don't waste money on special forms 3-5g/day and no loading phase.

Any impact on hair?

 

[Peater]

You're on to something with the D vitamin thing. I've discovered my b1 deficiency half a year ago and vitamin D supplements make feel tired, sluggish and depressed - I wonder why...

That is a really interesting point. I have really cut back on Vit D recently after another poster mentioned insomnia and I noticed my sleep was getting worse.

Just the simple monohydrate. Don't waste money on special forms 3-5g/day and no loading phase.

200 mesh from nootropicsdepot.com - haven't really used it yet just been sitting here for months.

Thanks chaps.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

So fortified cereals and bread are fat promoting due to synthetic B vitamins being added 70s and 80s, processed food manufacturing seems to have a lot to answer for

Well, maybe the B-s made him hungry and he was just happen to consume those cereals and bread which are extremely unsatiating and easy to overeat thus weight gain. If he consumed protein with some fat and carbs and lifted weights instead who knows - maybe he would've become Mr Olympia

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Any impact on hair?

I started developing MPB 2 years after I started lifting weight seriously right around the age 24 and was using creatine on and off since that age. My lifestyle was extremely bad - poor sleeping habits, stress from med school, family issues, relationship issues, binge drinking and partying on weekends, regular soccer on top of weight lifting 2-3times a week. Add all those things up and you'll have a recipe for disaster (basically burning the candle from both ends) Don't think creatine did anything for hair, if anything it probably helped it, who knows.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

That is a really interesting point. I have really cut back on Vit D recently after another poster mentioned insomnia and I noticed my sleep was getting worse.

So your sleep was getting worse from the supplement or after stopping it?

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I started developing MPB 2 years after I started lifting weight seriously right around the age 24 and was using creatine on and off since all that time. My lifestyle was extremely bad - poor sleeping habits, stress from med school, family issues, relationship issues, binge drinking and partying on weekends, regular soccer on top of weight lifting 2-3times a week. Add all those things up and you'll have a recipe for disaster (basically burning the candle from both ends) Don't think creatine did anything for hair, if anything it probably helped it, who knows.

 

[Peater]

So your sleep was getting worse from the supplement or after stopping it?

With the supplement, 10,000 IU's every (mostly) day.

(Apologies the other post was ambiguous)

 

[TheSir]

You're on to something with the D vitamin thing. I've discovered my b1 deficiency half a year ago and vitamin D supplements make feel tired, sluggish and depressed - I wonder why...

I've also noticed weird issues with vit D. One is that I begin getting heart palpitations/skipped beats (that sudden sinking THUD feeling in your chest) on 50-100mcg doses. I thought it would be magnesium, salt or potassium issue but supplementing these does not help.

 

[TheBeard]

I've been adding my b's into my half gallon jug of water and sipping that throughout the day. Recently added 1g of taurine to that as well and am thinking about adding a grab of creatine since I'm switching to mainly gelatin as my primary protein (I lift weights and need a good amount of protein). Maybe doing something similar to me would alleviate that kidney feeling.

Not sure why adding more stuff to my routine would alleviate the load on my kidneys

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I've also noticed weird issues with vit D. One is that I begin getting heart palpitations/skipped beats (that sudden sinking THUD feeling in your chest) on 50-100mcg doses. I thought it would be magnesium, salt or potassium issue but supplementing these does not help.

I've noticed the palpitations too! Weird stuff. No wonder Amazoniac calls it Venom D

 

[stackz07]

Not sure why adding more stuff to my routine would alleviate the load on my kidneys

You're not downing it all at once and instead drinking water with it diluted into it.

 

[Simatta]

@charlie Great thread. I thought I would add this video. And personally, I would suggest people starting with thiamine hcl, then trying the benfo or allithiamine versions if they don't notice results in the first couple of weeks. I find clients with sulfur issues can sometimes experience very wonky symptoms from benfo- and allithiamine versions. Particularly difficulty breathing, tightness in chest, weird soreness in muscles. As well consider a B-Complex like Metabolic Maintenance's versions. Or a high quality nutritional yeast if your body can handle it. Great post and I think it's one of the most over-looked things especially those taking after a Ray Peat-style of eating.

 

[charlie]

@charlie Great thread. I thought I would add this video. And personally, I would suggest people starting with thiamine hcl, then trying the benfo or allithiamine versions if they don't notice results in the first couple of weeks. I find clients with sulfur issues can sometimes experience very wonky symptoms from benfo- and allithiamine versions. Particularly difficulty breathing, tightness in chest, weird soreness in muscles. As well consider a B-Complex like Metabolic Maintenance's versions. Or a high quality nutritional yeast if your body can handle it.

Hi @Simatta I agree that thiamine hcl should be tried first. Also potassium is important to keep in mind, I find coconut water handles that for me. Thanks for the b-complex recommendation, gonna check it out. Always looking for a better one.

I think it's one of the most over-looked things especially those taking after a Ray Peat-style of eating.

Agreed. I have been shouting it from the rooftops. lol

 

[DANIEL]

As well consider a B-Complex like Metabolic Maintenance's versions.

Thanks for the b-complex recommendation, gonna check it out. Always looking for a better one.

Mega B6 dose on that one, sadly.

Thorne's Basic B Complex would be perfect if they didn't add silicon dioxide and MCC to it.

 

[Perry Staltic]

This guy thinks covid is really a B1 deficiency. A bit simplistic IMO, but I'm sure there's some, if not a lot of, truth to it. One thing I like about this guy is that he backs up virtually every claim he makes with clickable references.

NOT COVID

 

[Perry Staltic]

Very interesting comment in the video about metaformin causing a B1 deficiency, which can cause shortness of breath. I am convinced that many cases of moderate to severe covid are due to problems caused by pharmaceuticals. For example, imagine a diabetic on metaformin experiencing shortness of breath because of B1 deficiency, compounded by anxiety over covid, going to a hospital and being put on a mechanical ventilator because their blood oxygen is low. For anyone who doesn't know, mechanical ventilation activates inflammatory pathways through barotrauma and biotrauma, which can lead to cytokine storm, thrombosis, multiple organ failure and death, basically the same pathology as severe covid.

 

[Simatta]

Hi @Simatta I agree that thiamine hcl should be tried first. Also potassium is important to keep in mind, I find coconut water handles that for me. Thanks for the b-complex recommendation, gonna check it out. Always looking for a better one.

Agreed. I have been shouting it from the rooftops. lol

That's a good point regarding potassium. As well as magnesium with these B vitamins.

 

[Simatta]

Hi @Simatta I agree that thiamine hcl should be tried first. Also potassium is important to keep in mind, I find coconut water handles that for me. Thanks for the b-complex recommendation, gonna check it out. Always looking for a better one.

Agreed. I have been shouting it from the rooftops. lol

Agreed. You might like this video as well. Great point on potassium and I think magnesium as well as the obvious B complex.



I created Time-Stamps took like 2 hours but I felt it worthwhile.

00:39 - Why Elliot got interested in thiamine (author Dr. Derrick Lonsdale and the myth that thiamine deficiency disappeared)

02:00 - Thiamine deficiency first presented in Japan when refining rice to white rice because it was more aesthetically pleasing, which became a status symbol. Symptoms such as Beri Beri, peripheral nervous system disorder, Wernicke-korsakoff syndrome, psychosis, cardiac arrhythmias, gastrointestinal system via constipation, GERD, breathlessness, inability to concentrate, regulate emotions.

04:00 - When you refine foods you run into vitamin deficiencies even if physicians state thiamine deficiency is a thing of the past, Elliot has found this not to be the case. 04:43 - Alcoholic’s, anorexia begins to reseed usually on a lot of carbs and needs thiamine significantly.

05:16 - Early stage of thiamine deficiency doesn’t necessarily present as typical symptoms

05:27 - Dr. Derrick Lonsdale was a Cleveland Clinic Pediatrician who wrote a book co-authored with Chandler Marrs Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High-Calorie Malnutrition

06:11 - Thiamine deficiency isn’t a thing of the past, Elliot’s perspective on going back to basics on to why we need thiamine. When you eat certain foods like fats, carbs, and proteins. We need enzymes, so say you consume sugar, and it is transported into the cells, the end product is usable energy called ATP. The cells need this to do things. For the cells to work you need co-factors like vitamins/minerals. Thiamine is a very important part of those enzymes to make utilization of energy from these foods particularly carbohydrates.

08:15 - Problem with refining the foods you take out the nutrients and minerals. So you get a pure energy food substrate, but without the co-factors to make use of this without taxing your reserves.

08:52 - Sugar cane has a vast amount of vitamins and minerals. And with thiamine being water-soluble you need to get them from somewhere, so you need a constant supply of them.

09:19 - Every time you have sugar or fats, you are using some of the thiamine you have. And ordinarily, when eating whole foods, you’ll be adding in thiamine when consuming sugar. The problem lies when you’re using refined foods you’re taxing thiamine. Therefore the problem you run into is carb metabolism issues cause the necessary co-factors aren’t any longer present with high-calorie vitamin/mineral deficits.

10:37 - Acetylcholine is one of the major neurotransmitters and needs thiamine to keep healthy levels. Because it helps with the synthesis of neurotransmitters. Thus nerve transmission and thinking requires thiamine.

10:52 - One of the symptoms of cognitive decline is from deficits of thiamine.

11:04 - Research suggests that thiamine is important for maintaining the health of the myelin sheath and the neurons themself.

11:21 - There is a part of the brain called the limbic system and it's part of the brain stem, (emotional brain) it is a primitive part that has a lot of control of the autonomic nervous system.

11:38 - The cells in that part of the brain are particularly sensitive to thiamine deficiency. And when there is no longer thiamine in that part of the brain it acts similar to a deficiency of oxygen. And we know what happens when there is a deficit of oxygen. The cells die and they no longer function. So this is similar to what happens to that part of the brain when thiamine is low.

12:03 - People can get more emotional, mood problems. Some symptoms of early stages of thiamine deficiency are depression, emotional instability, mood changes, bipolar, schizophrenia. And even though it impacts our emotions, it can impact our entire body. Because our nervous system is really in control of the vasculature, so it can control how many of the organs function especially the cardiovascular system. So when you look at early-stage thiamine deficiency, it can manifest in multiple different ways. One of the first symptoms is heart palpitations, but eventually, the heart can enlarge to try to make up what it perceives to be an oxygen deficit. Which can lead to heart failure.

13:12 - Even benign symptoms like Reynaurds which is the uncontrolled constriction and dilation of the blood vessels in response to different temperatures. But essentially when there is a thiamine deficiency, it means the nervous system can effectively no longer adapt to the environment. So temp regulation can be skewed.

13:36 - There is a condition called POTS postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, this typically involves the nervous system being unable to control the blood vessels which can result in all types of symptoms.

13:50 - This can also impact the gut, because we have to understand that the gut, in order for it to propel food from the stomach down the intestine it requires it to contract. So one of the aspects you’ll find is SIBO small intestinal bacterial overgrowth due to improper migrating motor complex which can go unrecognized.

14:15 - Pins and needles around the arms or neurological symptoms like this can be due to thiamine deficiency

14:52 - Thiamine’s function in energy metabolism. Energy metabolism occurs in every single cell. In order for all cells to do what they need to do they need enough energy. And when you look at various diseases all have mitochondrial dysfunction or defective energy production. This refers to cells no longer being able to make energy as well as it once did. And when we look at thiamine, it sits at the top of how a cell can make energy. Without it, energy production is mostly halted.

15:54 - What Derrick Lonsdale found was that people whom he treated, had skewed immune function and that’s because the immune system requires energy. So he saw in many of his client's poor immune function due to thiamine deficits.

16:16 - The integrity of tissue, say the bladder, the cells that line in the bladder being mucosa and in order for that mucosa to be healthy you need enough energy to produce healthy tissue. This being a more novel idea to medicine that restoring energy production restores tissue health. And how thiamine can improve so many conditions even that seem unrelated.

17:33 - A lot of research on thiamine being used for things like Chronic Fatigue. Which its base being mitochondrial dysfunction. Fibromyalgia being another. And the onset of CF and FB showed its face typically with the use of an antibiotic classified as a fluoroquinolone antibiotic. One of the aspects of this is fluoroquinolone depletes thiamine, and so researchers are using thiamine to successfully treat CF and Fibromyalgia. In one small study on Fibromyalgia, they found up to 80% of 3 people just supplementing thiamine in relief of malaise, subjective feeling of well-being, etc.

18:52 - Fluoroquinolone depletes thiamine in unknown ways but it has been documented. Elliot suspects oxalate components but it is very complex. And it may inhibit the absorption of thiamine. Ruptured tendons being an issue with fluoroquinolone, which likely has an issue with glycine, vitamin B6, vitamin C. It gets progressively complex.

20:45 - Trickle-down effect or downstream effect that can affect the metabolism of various B vitamins and collagen synthesis and energy metabolism. Some aspects being disruption of microbiome and oxalates.

21:09 - Need b vitamins to get nutrients in our tendons.

21:25 - Other medications such as oral contraceptives, metformin, (possibly NSAIDs), and many others reduce thiamine in the body.

22:09 - Most B vitamins are produced by the microbiome. But the majority comes from the diet.

22:31 - Another problem is absorption. One issue is tannins in tea, coffee, sulfites, hydrogen sulfite (imbalanced gut bacteria that produces hydrogen sulfite can degrade B vitamin in the gut so it doesn’t even get absorbed). Another issue is celiac, Crohn’s disease can potentially inhibit the absorption of thiamine. Also, genetic transporter issues such as mutations in genes would prevent proper absorption of thiamine more easily.

24:04 - Doses of thiamine. The type of thiamine named Thiamine HCL is of low bio-availability. When prescribed at therapeutic doses, not much is absorbed. But mega doses of around 300-600mg a day could have beneficial effects. Thiamine transporters on the cell membrane that help thiamine get into the cell. And this makes testing thiamine difficult. Because someone could have normal blood levels of thiamine, but it doesn’t mean it can get into the cell, and on top of that it doesn’t mean it can be utilized once in the cell. So to find thiamine that can get into the cell Benfotiamine can be used to readily get into the cell and treat diabetic neuropathy.

26:12 - Certain types of thiamine can get into the brain. TTFD Thiamine is a Lipo-Soluble that can get into the brain as shown in Japanese studies. These are lower doses, such as below 100mg, although higher doses could prove very helpful.

27:23 - When there is a chronic deficiency like thiamine. Because we have various machinery in our cells that use thiamine, and when we have low levels of the vitamin, the machinery [proteins, enzymes] are naturally going to be down-regulated to match the deficit. In that case, the enzymes may be down-regulated, but likewise, the transporters may also be down-regulated. So if there aren’t enough enzymes or transporters for thiamine, it won’t be used to a high efficacy. They basically found that you may need to do high dose thiamine to send a message to the body to encourage the body to adapt its machinery to match the requirement [proteins, enzymes, transporters] to heal the energy metabolism. Even POTs situations might need 3-5 months of treatment to see the benefit in those situations.

30:10 - POTs many symptoms can be eradicated permanently with thiamine if structural damage hadn’t occurred. Digestive symptoms, blood pressure issues, etc. Can be resolved with treatment.

31:17 - A chronic deficiency can go on for a very long time. And oftentimes you need a stressor to initiate warning signs of that chronic deficiency. It could be a vaccine, infection, UV light, life event, etc. Which can put a lot of stress on the system, which can illustrate the thiamine deficiency.

32:37 - Gardasil vaccine leads to POT’s in many situations and thiamine can treat this.

33:12 - Type 1 and Type 2 diabetics have shown 50-60% less thiamine in these groups in studies. What we see in the cell for these individuals impacts drastically how insulin works in these individuals. Even in non-diabetes thiamine deficits can show hypo or hyperglycemia. So blood sugar balance is very dependent on thiamine. And even in different eating behaviors like bulimia and anorexia, it can cause a voracious appetite or disenchantment with food, and with thiamine, you can treat both of these conditions. 34:35 - Thiamine is a very safe treatment. Upon administrating thiamine, we need magnesium. Sometimes when you administer thiamine you might see heart palpitations initially, if you take it with magnesium with a b complex these didn’t occur.

36:16 - Learning difficulties, autism seem to improve significantly with thiamine. As well as chronic vomiting, gastrointestinal issues, nausea, migraines, headaches all got better with thiamine administration. As well as cardiovascular issues typically respond favorably.

37:17 - Much of the heart's electrical activity is coordinated by the autonomic nervous system through the vagus nerve. And when there is low thiamine, it can really breakdown the body’s ability to regulate the stress system. One of the big symptoms is an over-active sympathetic nervous system [fight or flight]. Thiamine can really help intervene with these issues.

38:37 - Why do you think thiamine doesn’t get much attention? Elliot finds it odd there isn’t much publicity surrounding this substance. It is such a lone-wolf and so he hopes the book can encourage further research surrounding this safe effective treatment of so many conditions. Especially for those using sugar and refined foods as calorie sources.

39:45 - People with kidney failure, gastric bypass, anyone with anorexia, the elderly, and anyone who is young such as children all are very susceptible to thiamine deficits. The general population at large is likely suffering from some sub-clinical thiamine deficiency. As well with many people taking over-the-counter drugs, it can lead to deficits in thiamine. And especially gut dysbiosis (constipation or diarrhea). Mold toxicity is another major aspect that can deplete thiamine. He finds most people eating refined carbs especially are at risk of thiamine deficiency. And if you drink tea or coffee do so away from foods if you refuse to supplement. If you boil potatoes you lose the B vitamin.

 

[Simatta]

It appears I responded to you twice @charlie. I think my comp was having difficulties with loading stuff and I am moving like a thousand miles an hour consuming, curating, and creating content ^o^. Anyway, I should sleep now. Cheers everyone.

P.S. Anyone exploring Peat's work really really really needs to look at this Thiamine (B Complex/Magnesium) connection on a major level. I will be creating something that will cover some more of the basics for intro's so people have less confusion about Ray's principles and trouble-shooting will become easier.