Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency: The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses

[LeeLemonoil]

I‘ve been taking between 100-200mg on and Thiamine HCL after loosely following the recent threads on it, on and off for 14 days, just for the sake of it, no specific goal in mind or condition to cure. But I eat sugar and carbs by the wagonload and according to Marrs and Lonsdale that might be sufficient to induce B1-defiency longterm.

Noticed distinct endurance-improvement in football and running, hardly tiring on it. I usually run much and hard in a football match and noticeably decline around ~65 minutes into a game. Not after the first week of B1 and not in the second weekend. Nothing else different but B1 supplementation. One teammate commented on my „lunatic“ running the second match.

Also, feel more grounded / focused mentally on B1 and feel like it inproves mental organisation of information and thoughts, also more mental energy.

Downside: Shedding. There are 20-40 hairs or so in the sink when washing hair. I‘m nearing forty but hardly ever experienced shedding.

Gonna reduce the dose now and see what happens

 

[yerrag]

Has anyone tried Allicin? I bought some allimax and noticed better skin, calmer gut, without some of the insomnia from Allithiamine. Might be worth trying

I've used allicin regularly on my cats when they have a wound from fighting with other cats. I'd grate garlic (to create allicin) and mix it with honey and apply it on the wound. I hadn't realize that I could take that ointment as a syrup as well. Saw this video about just grating the garlic and taking it by itself, but the comment below suggested adding honey.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

I‘ve been taking between 100-200mg on and Thiamine HCL after loosely following the recent threads on it, on and off for 14 days, just for the sake of it, no specific goal in mind or condition to cure. But I eat sugar and carbs by the wagonload and according to Marrs and Lonsdale that might be sufficient to induce B1-defiency longterm.

Noticed distinct endurance-improvement in football and running, hardly tiring on it. I usually run much and hard in a football match and noticeably decline around ~65 minutes into a game. Not after the first week of B1 and not in the second weekend. Nothing else different but B1 supplementation. One teammate commented on my „lunatic“ running the second match.

Also, feel more grounded / focused mentally on B1 and feel like it inproves mental organisation of information and thoughts, also more mental energy.

Downside: Shedding. There are 20-40 hairs or so in the sink when washing hair. I‘m nearing forty but hardly ever experienced shedding.

Gonna reduce the dose now and see what happens

Shedding stopped, seems it was not necessarily connected to B1 supplementation. Still take it, after researching further it seems a crucial supplement on a Peat-inspired diet with lots of carbs / sugars.

 

[Jing]

Ive taken up to 1.2 grams of benfothiamine with no need to increase carbs what does this mean ? Should this much make me need more carbs?

 

[Mito]

Thiamine Deficiency Causes Intracellular Potassium Wasting

Whilst I always suspected a direct link between potassium and thiamine deficiency (outside of the context of refeeding syndrome), I had not come across any direct research elucidating the mechanisms – until NOW. In short, thiamine deficiency causes intracellular potassium wasting. Animal research in rats showed that chronic thiamine deficiency increases sodium tissue content in heart, liver and skeletal muscle by 18-35%, while also decreasing potassium content by 18-25%. Interestingly, although tissue levels were altered, plasma levels of these electrolytes remained unaffected and stayed within the normal-high range (sodium at 141.6 and potassium at 4.8). This means that blood measurements did not reflect tissue content. The thiamine deficient group also displayed remarkably lower levels of stored liver glycogen (0.3gm/100 vs 2.7gm/100 in controls). This inability to store glycogen is one factor which helps to explain the strong tendency towards hypoglycemia seen in many people with a thiamine deficiency.

Interestingly, the researchers showed a shift towards an increased level of extracellular water and reduced intracellular water. This finding, along with the shift in intracellular electrolyte concentrations, is 100% consistent with Ling’s Association-Induction hypothesis.

In short, the bioenergetic state of the cell governs its ability to retain potassium ions and structure water into a gel-like phase. A cell with plentiful ATP can maintain this ability, independent of the “sodium potassium pump”. On the other hand, cells lacking energy lose their capacity to retain potassium, intracellular water becomes “unstructured” and intracellular concentration of sodium ions increases and the electronic state of the cell is changed. This causes water to “leak” out of the cells into the extracellular space to produce a localised edema of sorts. Thiamine, playing a central role in energy metabolism, is partially responsible for maintaining healthy redox balance and a continuous supply of ATP. Hence, it is no wonder why a deficiency of this essential nutrient produces such drastic changes in the cellular electrolyte balance.
Thiamine Deficiency Causes Intracellular Potassium Wasting - Hormones Matter

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Ok that makes a little more sense, I may have to test again in awhile, might wait for some months to get circulating VA down a little lower as well.

"Derrick Lonsdale says:
August 8, 2017 at 9:39 am
You ARE “flying blind” because very few physicians know about “paradox”. It also has been mentioned on this website as “refeeding syndrome”. When you have been deficient in thiamin, in particular, for a long time, the paradox is apt to be prolonged because you are resuscitating a mechanism that has been broken. It is too difficult at a technical level to explain refeeding syndrome or paradox. It is to do with an explosion in oxygen utilization. The longer you have been deficient, the longer the paradox and it is entirely and completely unpredictable. My experience over many years is that it is the best prediction of ultimate success. It is encoded in the saying “there is no gain without pain”. Jason has evidence of multiple B complex vitamin deficiencies and he would benefit best from intravenous vitamins or multiple injections of B complex."

Aka "healing crisis".

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Can a person simply take high doses of thiamine? Like 1000mg a day

Yes , doses up to 2g can be used, most of it wont absorb anyways beacuse of the transoprter's limitation.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Yeh because it breaks down noradrenaline a lot by increasing MAO-A which will dilate the veins instead of vasoconstriction which is what noradrenaline does. I also get my veins popping out 24/7 how they used to when I was younger taking B2. Its great for that.

Wow - thanks for the explanation, I noticed the vein dilation too.

 

[redsun]

Wow - thanks for the explanation, I noticed the vein dilation too.

Also B2 is involved as FAD and FMN in nitric oxide synthase so that also plays a role as NO will increase vasodilation as well.

 

[ddjd]

b6 and b3 will deplete b1

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Thanks for the latest post, @Mito
Essential knowledge for any peater

 

[Steven Bussinger]

b6 and b3 will deplete b1

Do you have any further reading for that?

 

[sweetpeat]

Based on my own n=1 experience, high dose thiamine can indeed lower iron. My serum iron went from 83 to 54 with no other changes in diet or supps. Ferritin stayed about the same and actually went up a little, from 43 to 50.

I had decided to try thiamine HCL to see if it would help with edema, intermittent fatigue/brain fog, and fasting glucose which has been creeping up lately. I worked my way up to about a gram/day in divided doses. I made sure to take it with magnesium and a B-complex. It did help a little with the edema, and brain fog improved quite a lot. Didn't help with fasting glucose or fatigue. I think fatigue was actually a little worse. Then I started noticing an unusual amount of hair shedding and remembered that being mentioned here, along with possibly affecting iron. Since I was getting some lab work anyway, I decided to check on it.

I haven't completely given up on thiamine, but I have substantially lowered the dose. I'm also experimenting with allithiamine to see if I can get the same benefits by taking less thiamine overall.

 

[charlie]

Thiamine Deficiency Causes Intracellular Potassium Wasting

Whilst I always suspected a direct link between potassium and thiamine deficiency (outside of the context of refeeding syndrome), I had not come across any direct research elucidating the mechanisms – until NOW. In short, thiamine deficiency causes intracellular potassium wasting. Animal research in rats showed that chronic thiamine deficiency increases sodium tissue content in heart, liver and skeletal muscle by 18-35%, while also decreasing potassium content by 18-25%. Interestingly, although tissue levels were altered, plasma levels of these electrolytes remained unaffected and stayed within the normal-high range (sodium at 141.6 and potassium at 4.8). This means that blood measurements did not reflect tissue content. The thiamine deficient group also displayed remarkably lower levels of stored liver glycogen (0.3gm/100 vs 2.7gm/100 in controls). This inability to store glycogen is one factor which helps to explain the strong tendency towards hypoglycemia seen in many people with a thiamine deficiency.

Interestingly, the researchers showed a shift towards an increased level of extracellular water and reduced intracellular water. This finding, along with the shift in intracellular electrolyte concentrations, is 100% consistent with Ling’s Association-Induction hypothesis.

In short, the bioenergetic state of the cell governs its ability to retain potassium ions and structure water into a gel-like phase. A cell with plentiful ATP can maintain this ability, independent of the “sodium potassium pump”. On the other hand, cells lacking energy lose their capacity to retain potassium, intracellular water becomes “unstructured” and intracellular concentration of sodium ions increases and the electronic state of the cell is changed. This causes water to “leak” out of the cells into the extracellular space to produce a localised edema of sorts. Thiamine, playing a central role in energy metabolism, is partially responsible for maintaining healthy redox balance and a continuous supply of ATP. Hence, it is no wonder why a deficiency of this essential nutrient produces such drastic changes in the cellular electrolyte balance.
Thiamine Deficiency Causes Intracellular Potassium Wasting - Hormones Matter

So if someone has Beriberi and then starts taking a vitamin D supplement which causes potassium wasting seems like a recipe for disaster.

I haven't completely given up on thiamine, but I have substantially lowered the dose. I'm also experimenting with allithiamine to see if I can get the same benefits by taking less thiamine overall.

I am finding that I can comfortably handle very small doses..... 1mg of TTFD and/or 5mg of HCL at a time. A couple milligrams of Benfo is too much. Anything above that and a stress response ensues.

Dr. Lonsdale feels that there is an epidemic of Beriberi going on and I find myself agreeing with his research. Some of us come into Peating and load up the sugar which then digs the hole deeper on the Beriberi spectrum and bad things start happening. This is why some who go back to low carb find immediate relief due to the strain on Beriberi being lifted. So low carbing is basically a bandaid on the wound caused by Beriberi. But we all know where low carbing will lead us. Just gotta plug up that thiamine deficiency hole which appears to take quite a while and is not a straight shot when having to take in mind other deficiencies and imbalances.

 

[Orion]

So if someone has Beriberi and then starts taking a vitamin D supplement which causes potassium wasting seems like a recipe for disaster.


I am finding that I can comfortably handle very small doses..... 1mg of TTFD and/or 5mg of HCL at a time. A couple milligrams of Benfo is too much. Anything above that and a stress response ensues.

Dr. Lonsdale feels that there is an epidemic of Beriberi going on and I find myself agreeing with his research. Some of us come into Peating and load up the sugar which then digs the hole deeper on the Beriberi spectrum and bad things start happening. This is why some who go back to low carb find immediate relief due to the strain on Beriberi being lifted. So low carbing is basically a bandaid on the wound caused by Beriberi. But we all know where low carbing will lead us. Just gotta plug up that thiamine deficiency hole which appears to take quite a while and is not a straight shot when having to take in mind other deficiencies and imbalances.

Could be along with sugar the high vitamin A intake in animal alcohol form(retinol), contribute to the B1 deficiencies, similar to alcoholics.

I take allithiamine ~5mg every second day, if i use it every day it produces stress response and sleep declines quickly, its a slow pace for some. B1 HCl does not have this effect on me, but I don't get the same energy production from it.

 

[charlie]

Could be along with sugar the high vitamin A intake in animal alcohol form(retinol), contribute to the B1 deficiencies, similar to alcoholics.

I agree.

its a slow pace for some.

Indeed.

 

[Jing]

Benfo is too much. Anything above that and a stress response ensues.

What do you think causes this stress to benfo? I could take 1.2 grams with no problems.

 

[Peater]

While I understand the thiamine depleting effects of sugar, I am struggling to understand how Peat and Lonsdale, who both focus on energy/oxidative metabolism have such different opinions on carbs. Thiamine helps metabolise carbs so fruit etc should be fine? And even sugar if all nutrients are sufficient? Thiamine and low carb just seems to cause people to crash their blood sugar?

This is before we even get started on coffee depleting thiamine!

I am pretty sold on the idea of thiamine insufficiency being a big problem.

I have actually bought Dr Lonsdale's book, it won't be a quick read, but I'll try and do a bigger post here with any important points. No mention of PUFA so far.

I am taking mag taurate and 50 - 100mg of lipothiamine a day. I had been noticing fatigue and read with interest the iron lowering potential of thiamine. My lower eyelid seemed a little pinker than perhaps it would normally, hard to be sure. I just had some fried calves liver with OJ and noticed an improvement after an hour or so. Not necessarily low iron of course but doubt it's B vit depletion as I am making sure to take folinic acid, P5p, pantothenic acid, niacinamide and sublingual B12. Riboflavin is in my Life Extension Boron supplement.

 

[redsun]

While I understand the thiamine depleting effects of sugar, I am struggling to understand how Peat and Lonsdale, who both focus on energy/oxidative metabolism have such different opinions on carbs. Thiamine helps metabolise carbs so fruit etc should be fine? And even sugar if all nutrients are sufficient? Thiamine and low carb just seems to cause people to crash their blood sugar?

This is before we even get started on coffee depleting thiamine!

I am pretty sold on the idea of thiamine insufficiency being a big problem.

I have actually bought Dr Lonsdale's book, it won't be a quick read, but I'll try and do a bigger post here with any important points. No mention of PUFA so far.

I am taking mag taurate and 50 - 100mg of lipothiamine a day. I had been noticing fatigue and read with interest the iron lowering potential of thiamine. My lower eyelid seemed a little pinker than perhaps it would normally, hard to be sure. I just had some fried calves liver with OJ and noticed an improvement after an hour or so. Not necessarily low iron of course but doubt it's B vit depletion as I am making sure to take folinic acid, P5p, pantothenic acid, niacinamide and sublingual B12. Riboflavin is in my Life Extension Boron supplement.

I dont think in the long term taking B1 at that dose is necessary. Long term strategy is to stick to high B1 foods and avoid B1 depletion to begin with. Also thiamine + keto is a very quick way to raise cortisol because sugar is low in the diet. Thats probably why it helps them, because at least the rise in cortisol provides more sugar to them despite the obvious drawbacks. Keto people should never have low B1 to begin with because the diet is high in B1 but low in carbs which deplete it.

 

[RWilly]

I was just reading how B vitamins can cause obesity:

Excess vitamin intake: An unrecognized risk factor for obesity

"Core tip: B vitamins are a known fat gain promoting factor. Food fortification-induced high vitamin consumption is followed by a rapid increase in obesity prevalence. Why is the fat gain effect of B vitamins neglected in obesity studies? Why does obesity prevalence vary from country to country? Why are the poor in developed countries but the rich in developing countries at high risk of obesity? Why is obesity prevalence higher in blacks than whites in the United States? Why does formula feeding (which is associated with high energy expenditure) increase the risk for obesity? Why is physical inactivity associated with increased obesity risk? This paper reviews the role of excess vitamins in obesity and proposes a unified answer to these questions."