Vitamin B1 / Thiamine deficiency increases serotonin in the brain

Sergey

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Interesting ideas. I'm not sure how much we can extrapolate from these studies but grain feeding in cows seems to reliably induce thiamine deficiency through several mechanism = high lactate (Thiamine status, metabolism and application in dairy cows: a review - PubMed):

"As the co-enzyme of pyruvate dehydrogenase and α-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, thiamine plays a critical role in carbohydrate metabolism in dairy cows. Apart from feedstuff, microbial thiamine synthesis in the rumen is the main source for dairy cows. However, the amount of ruminal thiamine synthesis, which is influenced by dietary N levels and forage to concentrate ratio, varies greatly. Notably, when dairy cows are overfed high-grain diets, subacute ruminal acidosis (SARA) occurs and results in thiamine deficiency. Thiamine deficiency is characterised by decreased ruminal and blood thiamine concentrations and an increased blood thiamine pyrophosphate effect to >45 %. Thiamine deficiency caused by SARA is mainly related to the increased thiamine requirement during high grain feeding, decreased bacterial thiamine synthesis in the rumen, increased thiamine degradation by thiaminase, and decreased thiamine absorption by transporters. Interestingly, thiamine deficiency can be reversed by exogenous thiamine supplementation in the diet. Besides, thiamine supplementation has beneficial effects in dairy cows, such as increased milk and component production and attenuated SARA by improving rumen fermentation, balancing bacterial community and alleviating inflammatory response in the ruminal epithelium."

Does the same thing happen in humans who eat too much grain/starch?
I think most "dense" foods can do that, probably due to changes in microbiome and overgrowth of some fungal stuff. They probably use up / "destroy" thiamine like many fungi do. Lonsdale's "thiamine paradox" fits well there - adding more thiamine feeds more fungi so person gets worse, not better. And according to Lonsdale its a good sign. With the dose high enough improvements start appearing in a month or so and gradually problem resolves. Dose is critical according to him, and low doses might not be sufficient. To me it sounds like with doses high enough some thiamine makes it through fungal/archaea antithiamine action, proper gut flora starts to grow and fight back. Though many people (me inducing) seem to be unable to push through "thiamine paradox" and if this model is right there can be other things, not just high dose thiamine, which could help in resolving all this.
 

PolishSun

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But fungi survives because of low stomach acid as well, and that one is dependent on stress and other nutrients.
 
OP
Mauritio

Mauritio

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I think most "dense" foods can do that, probably due to changes in microbiome and overgrowth of some fungal stuff. They probably use up / "destroy" thiamine like many fungi do. Lonsdale's "thiamine paradox" fits well there - adding more thiamine feeds more fungi so person gets worse, not better. And according to Lonsdale its a good sign. With the dose high enough improvements start appearing in a month or so and gradually problem resolves. Dose is critical according to him, and low doses might not be sufficient. To me it sounds like with doses high enough some thiamine makes it through fungal/archaea antithiamine action, proper gut flora starts to grow and fight back. Though many people (me inducing) seem to be unable to push through "thiamine paradox" and if this model is right there can be other things, not just high dose thiamine, which could help in resolving all this.
Maybe this is where benfo and sulbutiamin come into play as you need a lot lower doses of the to raise thiamine levels .
 

Sergey

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Maybe this is where benfo and sulbutiamin come into play as you need a lot lower doses of the to raise thiamine levels .
Don't know. They are supposed to be better in delivering thiamine into the cells and blood, not into the gut beyond dysbiotic upper GI. Which is of course important, though I am not sure if it helps much with resolving gut issue. Maybe they make living with that gut issue easier. After about 1.5 years of experiments with all thiamine forms I stopped taking all vitamins and most other supplements too.
 

Korven

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I think most "dense" foods can do that, probably due to changes in microbiome and overgrowth of some fungal stuff. They probably use up / "destroy" thiamine like many fungi do. Lonsdale's "thiamine paradox" fits well there - adding more thiamine feeds more fungi so person gets worse, not better. And according to Lonsdale its a good sign. With the dose high enough improvements start appearing in a month or so and gradually problem resolves. Dose is critical according to him, and low doses might not be sufficient. To me it sounds like with doses high enough some thiamine makes it through fungal/archaea antithiamine action, proper gut flora starts to grow and fight back. Though many people (me inducing) seem to be unable to push through "thiamine paradox" and if this model is right there can be other things, not just high dose thiamine, which could help in resolving all this.

Is this why thiamine has been associated with higher risk for some cancers The Role of Thiamine in Cancer: Possible Genetic and Cellular Signaling Mechanisms ? Basically you're feeding the nasty dysbiotic SIBO/SIFO colonies instead of absorbing any nutrients. This study on the other hand suggests HIGH dose thiamine to have anti-cancer properties High Dose Vitamin B1 Reduces Proliferation in Cancer Cell Lines Analogous to Dichloroacetate

I've also used tons of allithiamine and it didn't solve all my health issues, but I don't know maybe it helped and I just didn't notice the improvements. My digestion is definitely stronger.

Taking thiamine either IV or topically should avoid feeding any fungi in the GI tract? I was thinking of dissolving TTFD in MCT oil and applying in navel. There are anecdotes of CFS people doing very well with allithiamine transdermal lotion.

If you can not push through the "thiamine paradox" and see improvements, what other things can you do to stop the thiamine wasting dysbiosis?
 

Sergey

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Is this why thiamine has been associated with higher risk for some cancers The Role of Thiamine in Cancer: Possible Genetic and Cellular Signaling Mechanisms ? Basically you're feeding the nasty dysbiotic SIBO/SIFO colonies instead of absorbing any nutrients. This study on the other hand suggests HIGH dose thiamine to have anti-cancer properties High Dose Vitamin B1 Reduces Proliferation in Cancer Cell Lines Analogous to Dichloroacetate

I've also used tons of allithiamine and it didn't solve all my health issues, but I don't know maybe it helped and I just didn't notice the improvements. My digestion is definitely stronger.

Taking thiamine either IV or topically should avoid feeding any fungi in the GI tract? I was thinking of dissolving TTFD in MCT oil and applying in navel. There are anecdotes of CFS people doing very well with allithiamine transdermal lotion.

If you can not push through the "thiamine paradox" and see improvements, what other things can you do to stop the thiamine wasting dysbiosis?
I wish I knew a method which would work 100%.
Somehow I dont’ believe that huge doses of thiamine are needed to just push it through some invisible barrier at the cell surface or something like that. However they are effective, or at least they do stir up something.
Outside of its purely metabolic effects there seem to be at least two other areas - microbiome and infections (or maybe it is the same after all).
With regards to the gut issues the case for “methanogens vs thiamine” seem to be very strong. Methanogens overgrowth depletes thiamine, and thiamine supplementation rescues cows from methanogens-induced acidosis.
Methanogens seem to be quite resistant to many things however they dont like pufa, squalamine and lovastatin (maybe other statins, not sure). So taking these could be a good strategy. However it only seem to work short term. Methanogens seem to coexist very often with candida or other yeast and and presence of this pair seem to strongly correlate with lots of carbs in the diet (especially starch) and little fat and protein. So dietary strategy could work here.
There is another angle in gut related stuff. Generally methanogens seem to like bacterial activity due to increased hydrogen production, thats why it seem logical to just kill all the bugs. That however doesnt seem to be effective long term, something comes back again and again. Among the bacteria which is native to stomach and small intestine (where methanogens also prefer to live) one caught my attention - l reuteri. Some of its strains clearly reduce methane production, even when doses are quite low (up to one billion cfu). I haven’t seen similar results for other bacteria, while bitidobacterium infantis for example produces the opposite effect - methane production is increased.
Interestingly, the same strain of l reuteri which reduces methane production is capable of producing thiamine, unlike many other strains.
Also, reuteri and m. Smithii seem to lead to the opposite body composition patterns - m.smithii is associated with low bmi, while reuteri is associated with high bmi and sometimes obesity. Now this sounds a little discouraging, but maybe there can be some healthy explanation. When m smithii is present there seem to be so many issues with appetite, food moves very slowly, person eats very little, so no way he or she becomes obese. On the other hand, l reuteri does stimulate (or regulate) many processes, it boosts oxytocin production, increases testosterone, improves bone methabolism, etc etc, so no surprise people are more likely to get obese - maybe its not the l reuteri which is the cause, but the absence of methanogens. In the gut or in the mouth I haven’t seen a healthy condition where methanogens are present in large quantities. However they are present in periodontal disease, gut disease etc. I am probably oversimplifying(or just totally wrong), but high counts or methanogens seem to be a marker of a disease.
So to me there seem to be a clear antagonism between these two - reuteri and smithii. Interestingly, reuteri has quite special growth requirements. Lately I have been reading studies on fermentation with reuteri starters and they report a surprising findings - it grows worse when carbs and other nutrients are supplies in normal ranges for bacterial growth. One study investigated its growth in coconut milk, which seem to be a very good medium for reuteri, and they foun that among different ratios of coconut pulp to water the lowest one (1/9) produced the best growth. Similar finding with all other additives, proteins, carbs etc. Authors said “minimal concentrations tested were optimal”. In another study l reuteri growth has been studied in pumpkin juice, and similar finding - growth in pure juice was “surprisingly” better than with additional carbs - fructose, sucrose and glucose. I bet that if they would dilute juice similar to coconut study, they’d get even better growth. There was however one study which found that caseine peptone, but not carbs, enhanced l reuteri growth in milk.
So why all this could be important? L reuteri seem to be the natural enemy of methanogens. It occupies the same niche. And it seems to prefer low nutritional environment. M smithii at the same time seem to like nutritionally dense environments - high carbs, starches etc.
There were studies showing progressive decline of l reuteri in human microbiome in the last few decades. Its tempting to attribute many modern diseases at least partially to this change. Increased use of antibiotics and increased consumption of “empty” carbs quite possibly wipes out this important resident of small intestinal microflora and leads to overgrowth of methanogens, issues with thiamine, issues with candida (m smithii seem to enhance resilience of fungi, at least some of them). Paradoxically, if this is true, then more antibiotics could be effective short term by suppressing other bacteria and keeping hydrogen levels low in the small intestine. However it would not be a good long term solution - just course after course to maintain unstable equilibrium.
I have experimented with supplying these specific strains of l reuteri first via supplements and then by fermenting milk with them as a starter. The results were dramatic. Not only physical, psychological changes are huge. Whether its oxytocin or something else, I am not sure. But physically I gained lots of energy in a very little time. New hair started to grow on my chest in 2 weeks. When I eat this yoghurt I have 2 bowel movements per day. That weird feeling of food being stuck somewhere in the upper right abdomen is either gone or significantly reduced.
You can find more about fermenting milk with reuteri via Dr Davis reuteri yoghurt. He seem to be a bit incorrect on small things (ability of l reuteri to consume all the lactose in milk etc)., but he does great job in promoting this bacteria and a way to supplement them. I personally don’t follow his recipe, but thats minor details.
Now this does not fix all the problems all at once. For me dairy is a big issue (probably due to some candida in the throat or stomach), especially non fermented dairy and even more so unfermented dairy with lactose (lactose free is less problematic). So I am trying to find a way to culture reuteri and reduce lactose and other carbs to a minimum. Currently playing with first culturing reuteri for a day and then adding other lactobacilli to quickly reduce ph and consume lactose. The more acidic the final product the better I tolerate it.
There are few other species worth looking at. First one is L sakei. It is known for its ability to cure even tough sinusitis, and, like l reuteri, it is associated with high bmi. I find that it definitely is a powerful bacteria which seem to have very strong antifungal effects. I make cultured milk with l sakei, it acidifies it much better than l reuteri, so there are less issues there. However it does not have the same effect on gut motility as does l reuteri. From all the species I have tried no one comes close to l reuteri in that regards.

Another lactobacteria i find very useful is l gasseri. This one is isolated from vaginas, but well, whatever. This one, I believe, has very strong anti-fungal properties, actually it is the only bacteria which quickly dissolves my tooth plaque. The reason I started to look at gasseri was that it degrades oxalates and oxalates production by fungi seem to be one of the major issues out there. People are suddenly becoming more and more “oxalate intolerant” which doesnt make much sense. However, if oxalate degraders such as oxalobacter are also killed by increased use of antibiotics, and oxalate producing fungi overgrow as the result of those antibiotics and too much carbs, it seems very important to address oxalate via bacterial degradation. There are so many oxalate related information out there, linking it with thiamine, sulphur issues, autism, and who knows what else. I’d say that subjectively l gasseri does something extremely important for me, and I crave it even more than l reuteri.
Some other lactobacteria can degrade oxalates too, for example l acidophilus. I use it in a mixed started, but hasn’t played with it individually. However it is the most common strain in commercial yoghurts, so much easier to find.
One thing I forgot, there are at least three unexpected foods which stimulate l reuteri. Coconut oil (seem to stimulate most lactobacteria), garlic and black pepper. Interestingly, garlic and black pepper also stimulate growth of L sakei as well. Actually when kimchi is made without garlic l sakei is absent in the final product. L sakei seem to be part of garlic’s natural biome and could be responsible for some of its health effects.
Ok, thats probably too many words and too many typos already. Hopefully some of it makes sense.
Just couple of thoughts on second potential route of thiamine actions. There were reports of people quickly recovering from almost septic conditions of unknown cause when high doses of thiamine have been administered. It probably has some antibacterial properties. Or antiviral, somehow it feels that antiviral is more likely. There is not much information on that, but there are some scattered bits on thiamine and treatment of herpes/vzv, and herpes, I believe, is involved in such a large number of issues - from ocds to depression, back pain, muscle spasms and so on. Herpes seem cause serotonin overproduction which could explain quite a lot. A Japanese study which found a very strong connection between ME/CFS and viral infections of nasopharynx made me think in a different way about how viruses could cause strange health symptoms. In that study they have achived remission in 25% and significant imprtovement in many others (dont remember number) by simply applying zinc chloride to nasopharynx. If thiamine can somehow suppress viral replication maybe it could lead to similar effects, but that is almost pure speculation, just my personal experience comparing thiamine effects and those of herpes/antiherpes medicine.
 

Korven

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I wish I knew a method which would work 100%.
Somehow I dont’ believe that huge doses of thiamine are needed to just push it through some invisible barrier at the cell surface or something like that. However they are effective, or at least they do stir up something.
Outside of its purely metabolic effects there seem to be at least two other areas - microbiome and infections (or maybe it is the same after all).
With regards to the gut issues the case for “methanogens vs thiamine” seem to be very strong. Methanogens overgrowth depletes thiamine, and thiamine supplementation rescues cows from methanogens-induced acidosis.
Methanogens seem to be quite resistant to many things however they dont like pufa, squalamine and lovastatin (maybe other statins, not sure). So taking these could be a good strategy. However it only seem to work short term. Methanogens seem to coexist very often with candida or other yeast and and presence of this pair seem to strongly correlate with lots of carbs in the diet (especially starch) and little fat and protein. So dietary strategy could work here.
There is another angle in gut related stuff. Generally methanogens seem to like bacterial activity due to increased hydrogen production, thats why it seem logical to just kill all the bugs. That however doesnt seem to be effective long term, something comes back again and again. Among the bacteria which is native to stomach and small intestine (where methanogens also prefer to live) one caught my attention - l reuteri. Some of its strains clearly reduce methane production, even when doses are quite low (up to one billion cfu). I haven’t seen similar results for other bacteria, while bitidobacterium infantis for example produces the opposite effect - methane production is increased.
Interestingly, the same strain of l reuteri which reduces methane production is capable of producing thiamine, unlike many other strains.
Also, reuteri and m. Smithii seem to lead to the opposite body composition patterns - m.smithii is associated with low bmi, while reuteri is associated with high bmi and sometimes obesity. Now this sounds a little discouraging, but maybe there can be some healthy explanation. When m smithii is present there seem to be so many issues with appetite, food moves very slowly, person eats very little, so no way he or she becomes obese. On the other hand, l reuteri does stimulate (or regulate) many processes, it boosts oxytocin production, increases testosterone, improves bone methabolism, etc etc, so no surprise people are more likely to get obese - maybe its not the l reuteri which is the cause, but the absence of methanogens. In the gut or in the mouth I haven’t seen a healthy condition where methanogens are present in large quantities. However they are present in periodontal disease, gut disease etc. I am probably oversimplifying(or just totally wrong), but high counts or methanogens seem to be a marker of a disease.
So to me there seem to be a clear antagonism between these two - reuteri and smithii. Interestingly, reuteri has quite special growth requirements. Lately I have been reading studies on fermentation with reuteri starters and they report a surprising findings - it grows worse when carbs and other nutrients are supplies in normal ranges for bacterial growth. One study investigated its growth in coconut milk, which seem to be a very good medium for reuteri, and they foun that among different ratios of coconut pulp to water the lowest one (1/9) produced the best growth. Similar finding with all other additives, proteins, carbs etc. Authors said “minimal concentrations tested were optimal”. In another study l reuteri growth has been studied in pumpkin juice, and similar finding - growth in pure juice was “surprisingly” better than with additional carbs - fructose, sucrose and glucose. I bet that if they would dilute juice similar to coconut study, they’d get even better growth. There was however one study which found that caseine peptone, but not carbs, enhanced l reuteri growth in milk.
So why all this could be important? L reuteri seem to be the natural enemy of methanogens. It occupies the same niche. And it seems to prefer low nutritional environment. M smithii at the same time seem to like nutritionally dense environments - high carbs, starches etc.
There were studies showing progressive decline of l reuteri in human microbiome in the last few decades. Its tempting to attribute many modern diseases at least partially to this change. Increased use of antibiotics and increased consumption of “empty” carbs quite possibly wipes out this important resident of small intestinal microflora and leads to overgrowth of methanogens, issues with thiamine, issues with candida (m smithii seem to enhance resilience of fungi, at least some of them). Paradoxically, if this is true, then more antibiotics could be effective short term by suppressing other bacteria and keeping hydrogen levels low in the small intestine. However it would not be a good long term solution - just course after course to maintain unstable equilibrium.
I have experimented with supplying these specific strains of l reuteri first via supplements and then by fermenting milk with them as a starter. The results were dramatic. Not only physical, psychological changes are huge. Whether its oxytocin or something else, I am not sure. But physically I gained lots of energy in a very little time. New hair started to grow on my chest in 2 weeks. When I eat this yoghurt I have 2 bowel movements per day. That weird feeling of food being stuck somewhere in the upper right abdomen is either gone or significantly reduced.
You can find more about fermenting milk with reuteri via Dr Davis reuteri yoghurt. He seem to be a bit incorrect on small things (ability of l reuteri to consume all the lactose in milk etc)., but he does great job in promoting this bacteria and a way to supplement them. I personally don’t follow his recipe, but thats minor details.
Now this does not fix all the problems all at once. For me dairy is a big issue (probably due to some candida in the throat or stomach), especially non fermented dairy and even more so unfermented dairy with lactose (lactose free is less problematic). So I am trying to find a way to culture reuteri and reduce lactose and other carbs to a minimum. Currently playing with first culturing reuteri for a day and then adding other lactobacilli to quickly reduce ph and consume lactose. The more acidic the final product the better I tolerate it.
There are few other species worth looking at. First one is L sakei. It is known for its ability to cure even tough sinusitis, and, like l reuteri, it is associated with high bmi. I find that it definitely is a powerful bacteria which seem to have very strong antifungal effects. I make cultured milk with l sakei, it acidifies it much better than l reuteri, so there are less issues there. However it does not have the same effect on gut motility as does l reuteri. From all the species I have tried no one comes close to l reuteri in that regards.

Another lactobacteria i find very useful is l gasseri. This one is isolated from vaginas, but well, whatever. This one, I believe, has very strong anti-fungal properties, actually it is the only bacteria which quickly dissolves my tooth plaque. The reason I started to look at gasseri was that it degrades oxalates and oxalates production by fungi seem to be one of the major issues out there. People are suddenly becoming more and more “oxalate intolerant” which doesnt make much sense. However, if oxalate degraders such as oxalobacter are also killed by increased use of antibiotics, and oxalate producing fungi overgrow as the result of those antibiotics and too much carbs, it seems very important to address oxalate via bacterial degradation. There are so many oxalate related information out there, linking it with thiamine, sulphur issues, autism, and who knows what else. I’d say that subjectively l gasseri does something extremely important for me, and I crave it even more than l reuteri.
Some other lactobacteria can degrade oxalates too, for example l acidophilus. I use it in a mixed started, but hasn’t played with it individually. However it is the most common strain in commercial yoghurts, so much easier to find.
One thing I forgot, there are at least three unexpected foods which stimulate l reuteri. Coconut oil (seem to stimulate most lactobacteria), garlic and black pepper. Interestingly, garlic and black pepper also stimulate growth of L sakei as well. Actually when kimchi is made without garlic l sakei is absent in the final product. L sakei seem to be part of garlic’s natural biome and could be responsible for some of its health effects.
Ok, thats probably too many words and too many typos already. Hopefully some of it makes sense.
Just couple of thoughts on second potential route of thiamine actions. There were reports of people quickly recovering from almost septic conditions of unknown cause when high doses of thiamine have been administered. It probably has some antibacterial properties. Or antiviral, somehow it feels that antiviral is more likely. There is not much information on that, but there are some scattered bits on thiamine and treatment of herpes/vzv, and herpes, I believe, is involved in such a large number of issues - from ocds to depression, back pain, muscle spasms and so on. Herpes seem cause serotonin overproduction which could explain quite a lot. A Japanese study which found a very strong connection between ME/CFS and viral infections of nasopharynx made me think in a different way about how viruses could cause strange health symptoms. In that study they have achived remission in 25% and significant imprtovement in many others (dont remember number) by simply applying zinc chloride to nasopharynx. If thiamine can somehow suppress viral replication maybe it could lead to similar effects, but that is almost pure speculation, just my personal experience comparing thiamine effects and those of herpes/antiherpes medicine.

Thank you that was a fantastic read.

I have taken BioGaia's L reuteri before but they only had 100 million units per pill. I think I'm going to buy the more expensive BioGaia Osfortis with 10 billion CFU and see what happens.

According to these articles L reuteri likes to eat glycerol and saturated fatty acids so a diet with whole milk and meat could favour colonization:

 

Sergey

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Messages
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Thank you that was a fantastic read.

I have taken BioGaia's L reuteri before but they only had 100 million units per pill. I think I'm going to buy the more expensive BioGaia Osfortis with 10 billion CFU and see what happens.

According to these articles L reuteri likes to eat glycerol and saturated fatty acids so a diet with whole milk and meat could favour colonization:

Make the yogurt if you tolerate dairy. The difference is huge. Basic recipe is fine, milk+cream, 10 tablets, yoghurt maker with temp control. Sterilizing milk is the key, otherwise yeast can take control - there would be gassy fermentation with some alcohol. I sterilize the container and spoons in the basic steam cooker, then pour milk which has been taken to the boiling point, leave it all in steam cooker for about 20 minutes, then cool down. Crush 10 gastrus tablets, wrapped in some food plastic, add to cool milk. Wait for 36-48 hours, enjoy.
I have been trying to find some other way to culture l reuteri because it seems that it really not a milk lover.
Coconut milk works great but it really aggravates herpes.
I have tried oat milk and oat+hemp milk and results have been great so far.

Not sure that diet high in red meat and milk will favor l reuteri that much. Yeast maybe, but that's arguable of course. L reuteri does not like LA, but well, most pufas are antibacterial and antifungal overall. I am not a big fan of eating soy oil etc, but my gut and overall health suffered so much during my years of "no pufa, meat+eggs+dairy+coffee+proper simple carbs", that I reconsidered all of my earlier beleifs. Most of them ended up in the trash bin.

L reuteri is indeed known for reuterin, but if you try culturing milk with different bacteria, you will see that L reuteri yoghurt is very very comfortable environment for yeast. In contrast, L gasseri yoghurt never gets yeasty and L gasseri also produces antimicrobial substances, gasserins I guess:) L sakei is somewhere in between, L casei shirota is also a strong anti-yeast one.
I have cultured milk with Equilibrium probiotic and despite low initial counts and no detectable acidity in the final product, it does not become yeasty even after a week of storage. I am still puzzled by this yeast boosting effect of L reuteri cultured milk, maybe its the B12 which it produces, don't know. B12 seem to stimulate some fungus a lot.

Equilibrium is great, by the way, but I would also use it as a starter, otherwise its quite expensive.

When I cleaned my diet I realized that milk and red meat are the worst aggravators at the moment. When I was eating everything reactions were so mixed and aggravation was constant. But thats just me of course, no way to generalize to everyone. I am "lucky" to have an early indicator of how foods affect me. Whatever makes me worse will first generate weird dental plaque shortly after eating. So cheese is the worst, red meat is next, followed by milk and egg yolks.
 

Sergey

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Messages
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@Korven
Forgot something, L reuteri is not only stimulated by garlic, it grows well in pressed garlic and seem to get all the nutrients from it.
I also ferments fruit juices, like pineapple and pumpkin. With pumpkin it grew less when extra protein was added.
So its probably not as simple as that guy says - give it some meat and it will skyrocket, Plus we don't wan't to create a monoculture, that will likely lead to some other issue long term. I mentioned L reuteri as a promising tool to overcome gut dysbiosis, but the goal here is to slowly move to some normal eating without supplying any extra nutrient/microbe by "unnatural" means.
Single apple contains dozens of different bacterial species, so "probiotics" are all around us. Shame I can't eat any apples at the moment:)
 

Sergey

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Messages
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@Korven
It was not hard to find about molds and L reuteri:

"Gram-positive microorganisms were more resistant to reuterin than gram-negative microorganisms.
Penicillium expansum and Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC 53608 survived at concentrations up to 10 and 8.5 mM, respectively.
Escherichia coli DH5α was the most sensitive to reuterin (0.9 mM)."

I am now confused how is it possible that they've obtained 34 mM of reuterin in fermented milk, but at the same time L reuteri itself dies at just 8.5 mM.
But this resistance of mold to high levels of reuterin explains quite a bit.

In the article itself they mention that tested bacteria resisted reuterin concentrations up to 1.5-2 mM, but "that 2.7, 1.8, and 8.1 mM reuterin were necessary to achieve a MIC for Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Aspergillus flavus, and Fusarium samfucienum, respectively."

So fungi inhibition requires much higher reuterin concentrations.... Riiiight....
 
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It might explain the behavioral in alcoholics - the rage, anger and antisocial behavior (unfortunately first hand experience with a family member).
 

Korven

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Make the yogurt if you tolerate dairy. The difference is huge. Basic recipe is fine, milk+cream, 10 tablets, yoghurt maker with temp control. Sterilizing milk is the key, otherwise yeast can take control - there would be gassy fermentation with some alcohol. I sterilize the container and spoons in the basic steam cooker, then pour milk which has been taken to the boiling point, leave it all in steam cooker for about 20 minutes, then cool down. Crush 10 gastrus tablets, wrapped in some food plastic, add to cool milk. Wait for 36-48 hours, enjoy.
I have been trying to find some other way to culture l reuteri because it seems that it really not a milk lover.
Coconut milk works great but it really aggravates herpes.
I have tried oat milk and oat+hemp milk and results have been great so far.

Not sure that diet high in red meat and milk will favor l reuteri that much. Yeast maybe, but that's arguable of course. L reuteri does not like LA, but well, most pufas are antibacterial and antifungal overall. I am not a big fan of eating soy oil etc, but my gut and overall health suffered so much during my years of "no pufa, meat+eggs+dairy+coffee+proper simple carbs", that I reconsidered all of my earlier beleifs. Most of them ended up in the trash bin.

L reuteri is indeed known for reuterin, but if you try culturing milk with different bacteria, you will see that L reuteri yoghurt is very very comfortable environment for yeast. In contrast, L gasseri yoghurt never gets yeasty and L gasseri also produces antimicrobial substances, gasserins I guess:) L sakei is somewhere in between, L casei shirota is also a strong anti-yeast one.
I have cultured milk with Equilibrium probiotic and despite low initial counts and no detectable acidity in the final product, it does not become yeasty even after a week of storage. I am still puzzled by this yeast boosting effect of L reuteri cultured milk, maybe its the B12 which it produces, don't know. B12 seem to stimulate some fungus a lot.

Equilibrium is great, by the way, but I would also use it as a starter, otherwise its quite expensive.

When I cleaned my diet I realized that milk and red meat are the worst aggravators at the moment. When I was eating everything reactions were so mixed and aggravation was constant. But thats just me of course, no way to generalize to everyone. I am "lucky" to have an early indicator of how foods affect me. Whatever makes me worse will first generate weird dental plaque shortly after eating. So cheese is the worst, red meat is next, followed by milk and egg yolks.

Nice - I'll try making L reuteri yogurt later, that should save me quite a bit of money. And thanks for the info, it's much appreciated. I randomly came across this study on mice showing that chronic stress lowered intestinal L.reuteri and taking fructooligosaccharides (FOS) increased it, so yeah it's probably true that they also enjoy eating fruits and vegetables.

What issues did you run into with the Peat style meat/eggs/dairy/coffee/sugar diet? Gut dysbiosis? I'm doing a lot better on a low fiber diet vs lots of starches/fruits/veggies but we're all different so...

You seem to be very knowledgeable about gut microbiome stuff, any opinion on using E.coli probiotics if you have close to 0% according to a stool test? I think I destroyed my poor E.coli population by being vegan for 3 years, apparently fermenting fiber/starch in your colon and producing lots of SCFA lowers pH which e.coli doesn't like.
 

Korven

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"Escherichia coli DH5α was the most sensitive to reuterin (0.9 mM)."

Okay on second thought perhaps I should NOT take L reuteri and further wreck my E.coli creatures.
 

AinmAnseo

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Thank you that was a fantastic read.

I have taken BioGaia's L reuteri before but they only had 100 million units per pill. I think I'm going to buy the more expensive BioGaia Osfortis with 10 billion CFU and see what happens.

According to these articles L reuteri likes to eat glycerol and saturated fatty acids so a diet with whole milk and meat could favour colonization:

FYI, you can make L reuteri (started from BioGaia) at home very easily.
Cheaper than using the biogaia pills, and much much higher bacteria count.
 

cjm

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Make the yogurt if you tolerate dairy. The difference is huge.

Indeed, I am impressed how strong a difference the two species have made in a matter of hours after consuming a couple cups. I made 3 quarts of l. gasseri and l. reuteri along with starter from a commercial yogurt.

Culturing for 36 hours is crucial -- there is an exponential growth curve that takes off in the last 12 hours, at least per the literature I received with my cultures. Commercial yogurt will never be any use if they are only fermenting for 6 hours.

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