Vitamin B1 in critically ill patients: needs and challenges

[charlie]

This is a treasure trove of studies related to vitamin B1.

Vitamin B1 in critically ill patients: needs and challenges

Background: Thiamine has a crucial role in energy production, and consequently thiamine deficiency (TD) has been associated with cardiac failure, neurological disorders, oxidative stress (lactic acidosis and sepsis) and refeeding syndrome (RFS). This review aims to explore analytical...

www.degruyter.com

 

[Perry Staltic]

That was very helpful to learn that about 30 mg of thiamine is stored in muscle tissue, liver and kidneys, and can deplete in 3 or so weeks. That will help me gauge what I actually need.

 

[Homo Consumericus]

This is a treasure trove of studies related to vitamin B1.

Vitamin B1 in critically ill patients: needs and challenges

Background: Thiamine has a crucial role in energy production, and consequently thiamine deficiency (TD) has been associated with cardiac failure, neurological disorders, oxidative stress (lactic acidosis and sepsis) and refeeding syndrome (RFS). This review aims to explore analytical...

www.degruyter.com

Gratitude, sir!

 

[achillea]

A slip on ice resulted in a head cracking blood gusher. I compressed it and hit the B-1, Progesterone, Coffee and Asprin. 4 days later, feeling fine again, whirring sound is subsiding. It's good to know these things at such a crucial time as medical independence is becoming a premium value. Much gratitude to this forum as it has helped me keep my life my own.

 

[animalcule]

Thanks for this!

 

[CLASH]

@charlie
Can confirm, followed up with some info you presented by Dr. Lonsdale about thiamine and began to experiment with. It has a pretty potent beneficial effect. Elliot Overton has an interesting series on it as well:

Mega-Dose Thiamine: Beyond Addressing “Deficiency”

Throughout the past few years, I have been prescribing thiamine more and more often for individuals with a range of different health conditions. I have witnessed major symptomatic improvement in some people who displayed none of the key risk factors for thiamine deficiency, and many times had...

www.eonutrition.co.uk

(not sure if it has been posted before)

 

[yerrag]

@charlie
Can confirm, followed up with some info you presented by Dr. Lonsdale about thiamine and began to experiment with. It has a pretty potent beneficial effect. Elliot Overton has an interesting series on it as well:

Mega-Dose Thiamine: Beyond Addressing “Deficiency”

Throughout the past few years, I have been prescribing thiamine more and more often for individuals with a range of different health conditions. I have witnessed major symptomatic improvement in some people who displayed none of the key risk factors for thiamine deficiency, and many times had...

www.eonutrition.co.uk

(not sure if it has been posted before)

Clash, I just had a thought and I wonder if you can tell me if increasing vitamin b1 intake would also increase NADPH production in the PPP. I have this idea of increasing NADPH production so that I would be able to increasing production of ROS to potentize the respiratory burst of phagocytosis. This may make neutrophils and macrophages of the innate immune system to become more effective in eating up immune complexes. I suspect immune complexes (ICs) accumulated in my kidneys cause inflammation and oxidative stress chronically. The ICs stay because the neutrophils and macrophages are unable to eat them up, but it could just be because they lack the punch needed to knock them out. They could be lacking enough ROS due to short of NADPH oxidase.

Thinking of increasing my daily b1 intake to as much as 1500mg to see if it can have a good effect. What do you think?

 

[mostlylurking]

Clash, I just had a thought and I wonder if you can tell me if increasing vitamin b1 intake would also increase NADPH production in the PPP. I have this idea of increasing NADPH production so that I would be able to increasing production of ROS to potentize the respiratory burst of phagocytosis. This may make neutrophils and macrophages of the innate immune system to become more effective in eating up immune complexes. I suspect immune complexes (ICs) accumulated in my kidneys cause inflammation and oxidative stress chronically. The ICs stay because the neutrophils and macrophages are unable to eat them up, but it could just be because they lack the punch needed to knock them out. They could be lacking enough ROS due to short of NADPH oxidase.

Thinking of increasing my daily b1 intake to as much as 1500mg to see if it can have a good effect. What do you think?

It is my understanding that TTFD thiamine will deplete NADPH (it increases its requirements). Thiamine HCL, not so much. There are workarounds.

"Specifically, we examined how TTFD can temporarily deplete glutathione (GSH) and increase the recycling requirements (using activated riboflavin and NADPH)." link: Paradoxical Reactions With TTFD: The Methylation Connection - Hormones Matter

video that discusses this issue:

 

[CLASH]

@yerrag
I would think that proteolytic enzymes such as lysosomes would be more involved in the degradation of the immune complexes than respiratory bursts. From what I've read so far the issue macrophages have with immune complexes is an inability to properly phagocytize and degrade the immune complexes. Based on my current understanding I would speculate that the ROS would be more helpful for actually killing a pathogen.

With this said my guess is serrapeptase, bromelain, papain, maybe nattokinase etc. may be better suited for degrading the immune complexes.

 

[Unknownuser]

Not sure if coincidence but I started injecting about 50mg B1 weekly 6 weeks ago. I had strong chronic migraines (1-2 per week) and constant background headaches for 4+ years. And now it's been 6 weeks and I only had one migraine so far.

 

[Vileplume]

Not sure if coincidence but I started injecting about 50mg B1 weekly 6 weeks ago. I had strong chronic migraines (1-2 per week) and constant background headaches for 4+ years. And now it's been 6 weeks and I only had one migraine so far.

So awesome!

 

[TheSir]

Everytime I try 100 mg of thiamine HCL I develop horrible nausea a few hours later. What could that be about?

 

[yerrag]

@yerrag
I would think that proteolytic enzymes such as lysosomes would be more involved in the degradation of the immune complexes than respiratory bursts. From what I've read so far the issue macrophages have with immune complexes is an inability to properly phagocytize and degrade the immune complexes. Based on my current understanding I would speculate that the ROS would be more helpful for actually killing a pathogen.

With this said my guess is serrapeptase, bromelain, papain, maybe nattokinase etc. may be better suited for degrading the immune complexes.

Thanks Clash. That was my first bet. I took enzymes - Dr Wong's ZymEssence and it increased my blood pressure. And then when I tried a 120k IU of serrapeptidase, just one capsule alone caused by wbc to rise from 7 to 11, so there was a lot of immune activity arising from it that made me suspect a lot of erstwhile dormant bacteria in the plaque biofilm got released into the bloodstream and became planktonic. The enzymes may have lysed the ICs, but the benefits were outweighed by the release of ICs as well as bacteria from the plaque lysing, and so the net to me was negative.

So now I'm staying away from these systemic enzymes for now and just focusing on the ICs that have accumulated on the kidneys.

And as for what you're saying about the ROS being helpful for killing a pathogen, that is correct but I also think that killing ICs is not exclusive of killing pathogens. Because the ICs are antibodies linked to pathogens which marks the pathogens for phagocytosis. It is said that small and medium agglomerations of ICs do not generate enough signals to attract phagocytes to engulf them, while large agglomerations of ICs have a stronger signal and these get eaten up by phagocytes. I don't know it that is true but I'm hoping it's not. I'm hoping that it's because my immune system can't summon enough ROS to really finish the job of phagocytosis and it's related to the strength of the respiratory burst, which is dependent on having enough ROS to potentiate the respiratory burst action.

So that led me to thinking about what is the limiting factor that keeps ROS from being produced? I think the my mitochondria is downregulated enough in terms of energy production, in the form of ATP, in order to create more ROS, but the ROS production may not be sufficient or potent enough. So I'm thinking the limiting factor is NADPH oxidase, which is the enzyme needed to convert superoxide to hydrogen peroxide, as well as for making ROS such as HOCl- and HOI-, and other ROS as well. Since I'm not deficient in Cl- and I'm supplementing some iodine with potassium iodide intake, I have to just guess, and it's a wild guess, that maybe, just maybe, I need a boost in NADPH oxidase. So I have to have the Pentose Phosphate Pathway increase its production of NADPH, and if vitamin is the limiting factor in producing NADPH, then maybe increasing vitamin B1 intake would help.

That's my reasoning for trying increased vitamin B1 intake.

@redsun can you also critique my reasoning as well?

 

[yerrag]

It is my understanding that TTFD thiamine will deplete NADPH (it increases its requirements). Thiamine HCL, not so much. There are workarounds.

"Specifically, we examined how TTFD can temporarily deplete glutathione (GSH) and increase the recycling requirements (using activated riboflavin and NADPH)." link: Paradoxical Reactions With TTFD: The Methylation Connection - Hormones Matter

video that discusses this issue:

Thanks.

I don't know if it will be counterproductive for me if it depletes NADPH. Gotta find out more about this as my knowledge is very cursory. Only know that B1 is needed in the PPP, and that PPP makes NADPH. But that is a very rudimentary understanding, and just enough to make me dangerous.

 

[Jem Oz]

Everytime I try 100 mg of thiamine HCL I develop horrible nausea a few hours later. What could that be about?

What brand? Could be excipients.

 

[TheSir]

What brand? Could be excipients.

Solgar, it's the thiamine that's causing it.

 

[Jem Oz]

Solgar, it's the thiamine that's causing it.

You don’t know that. Solgar has added extras that make plenty of people feel sick. Try a pure powder

 

[TheSir]

You don’t know that. Solgar has added extras that make plenty of people feel sick. Try a pure powder

I know it because other Solgar products don't affect me the same way. Furthermore, there are hardly any additives in Solgar at all. It's the thiamine. Excipients are largely a meme anyway.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks.

I don't know if it will be counterproductive for me if it depletes NADPH. Gotta find out more about this as my knowledge is very cursory. Only know that B1 is needed in the PPP, and that PPP makes NADPH. But that is a very rudimentary understanding, and just enough to make me dangerous.

Watch the video. The issue is more pronounced with TTFD (I think). There are things you can do (see video).

 

[yerrag]

Watch the video. The issue is more pronounced with TTFD (I think). There are things you can do (see video).

I watched it. It talks about prepping with some supps including low dose thiamine HCl before getting into using TTFD.

I think I have already satisfied all those prep, except for taking glutathione. But I'm not deficient on glutathione as I having been taking a lot of gelatin from some time already.

But why TTFD deplete NADPH? It must be also helping produce a lot of NADPH also, but causing a lot of NADPH to be used but where is the NADPH sink?