Visceral Fat

[Dobster]

Good day, was wondering if anyone with VF and blood sugar issues had success with reducing VF and ultimately improving BS / metabolism. Also what's a good/fast way to reduce VF? Diet ? Exercise ? Combo ?
Sauna/Steam ?

Thank you
Dobster

 

[mujuro]

I know it's a very anti-Peat approach but I was carrying quite a bit of visceral fat a few years ago and the way I got it off was through alternate day fasting + LISS cardio. It only took 4 weeks, my waist dropped several sizes. This was done using growth hormone secretagogue peptides, so the fat loss was accelerated. I alternated fat loss days with normal feeding, so I think perhaps it might be possible to combat the ravages of fat oxidation and fasting on the alternate day by refeeding with sugars, aspirin, niacinamide, pregnenolone, and various other FAOIs and anti-stress measures.

 

[Dobster]

Hey Mujuro, thanks for the input. Interesting."growth hormone secretagogue peptides" is this stuff safe to use ? I am not sure I can get this in Asia.

Cheers
Dobster

 

[marikay]

Hey Mujuro, thanks for the input. Interesting."growth hormone secretagogue peptides" is this stuff safe to use ? I am not sure I can get this in Asia.

Cheers
Dobster

It's a strange day indeed when I visit the raypeatforum and see someone recommending growth hormone peptides. Here's a link you may want to look at before you try these things:

Growth hormone: Hormone of Stress, Aging, and Death?

Caffeine, progesterone, and thyroid are the best things for fat from a Peat perspective (IMO).

 

[Dobster]

Hi Marikay, appreciate the response. I always live by 'When in doubt Ask'

 

[mujuro]

It's a strange day indeed when I visit the raypeatforum and see someone recommending growth hormone peptides. Here's a link you may want to look at before you try these things:

Growth hormone: Hormone of Stress, Aging, and Death?

Caffeine, progesterone, and thyroid are the best things for fat from a Peat perspective (IMO).

I did not recommend them, I just stated what I used. Losing fat as fast as I did and through such means as I used would induce a huge amount of stress.

Secretagogues aside, caffeine and thyroid and LISS cardio in a fasted state would be my choice.

 

[tara]

... caffeine and thyroid and LISS cardio in a fasted state would be my choice.

This too appears to conflict with Peat's usual advice.

 

[mujuro]

This too appears to conflict with Peat's usual advice.

I realize that too, but I know of no other effective, consistent way to remove visceral fat. Visceral fat is considerably more resistant to removal than subcutaneous fat, indeed it seems that visceral fat requires a hardline approach. If you look at bodybuilders, many who abuse insulin and rHGH take on a distended abdomen, the result of massive visceral deposits, and retain this even at competition time when they have extremely low subcutaneous fat. They are losing fat in one distribution, but visceral adiposity continues to accumulate.

Hence I believe it simply becomes about tempering the harms of fat oxidation on fat loss days with pro-Peat measures every other day.

 

[Fractality]

On the topic of the harms of HGH: it has been my cursory takeaway that short-term elevations of HGH are "okay." Ray seems to dispute the notion that HGH is a universally positive hormone. Like cortisol, it has its role in human biology but it isn't the elixir the mainstream views it as.

 

[Dobster]

Hmmm.. decisions decisions ...

 

[NathanK]

I realize that too, but I know of no other effective, consistent way to remove visceral fat. Visceral fat is considerably more resistant to removal than subcutaneous fat, indeed it seems that visceral fat requires a hardline approach. If you look at bodybuilders, many who abuse insulin and rHGH take on a distended abdomen, the result of massive visceral deposits, and retain this even at competition time when they have extremely low subcutaneous fat. They are losing fat in one distribution, but visceral adiposity continues to accumulate.

The distended belly is not from visceral fat, but because chronic exogenous growth hormone causes organs to grow larger. Thats why they cant, and wont ever, be able to lose that belly.

Otherwise, from what I recall, GH has an symbiotic relationship with insulin, which should be looked at when discussing. Ray has spoken about insulin being more the anabolic good guy and GH the stressful bad guy. Both work in pulsatile fashion as needed.

High IGF-1, which production is stimulated by pituitary hormone GH in the liver, is correlated with many diseases.

 

[tara]

Visceral fat is considerably more resistant to removal than subcutaneous fat

Maybe there are good reasons for that.
Visceral fat is usually more saturated than subcutaneous, isn't it? Which mainstream says makes it more dangerous, but is not the way some of us here see it.
Maybe what works depends on the causes?
Visceral fat seems to be one of the first things the body typically prioritises during/after starvation/deprivation. If this is the cause, it's not obvious that further deprivation would be the solution.

 

[bobbybobbob]

The distended belly is not from visceral fat, but because chronic exogenous growth hormone causes organs to grow larger. Thats why they cant, and wont ever, be able to lose that belly.

The whole field is broscience, but I don't buy the organ growth claim. It's visceral fat from insulin injections and chronically high stress from the other drugs and lifting regimen, in conjunction with massive caloric surplus. Some of them do get surgery to remove the fat deposits. They don't get segments of intestine removed, they get fat sucked out.

I'm too lazy to dig up references but I've seen evidence that it takes high intensity training, such as circuit weight training and sprint intervals, to reduce visceral fat. Sustained lower intensity is not very effective and caloric restriction is not very effective. From this I would infer the bit about growth hormone supplementation is probably onto something. You do get a surge of endogenous HGH from hard intervals.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

If you’re pro-moderate to high fat consumption then don’t bother responding to my comment as my comment is intended to share my experience with the OP as it relates to his/her post. This isn’t a macronutrient debate thread. I’m just giving “Dobster” my opinion. My opinion is also not “anti-Peat” because Peat has mentioned the fattening effects of all three types of fats. That doesn’t mean that Peat is “anti-fat” it just means he’s mentioned the fattening effects of fats.

PUFA: No need to post quotes.

MUFA(monounsaturated fat): “Olive oil, though it is somewhat fattening, is less fattening than corn or soy oil, and contains an antioxidant which makes it protective against heart disease and cancer.” - RP

SAFA(saturated fat): See here: Why Do I Find Dairy Fat To Be Particularly Fattening?

Your concern about visceral fat is warranted. It’s not good stuff. This is what visceral fat can do to your kidneys:



I’ll share my experience with you. I've lost a lot of weight over the past 1.5 years. I had a lot of visceral fat. I'm 29. I started to lose body fat 1.5 years ago in Sept 14' when I was 27. I'm 5'10 1/2" and I weighed 235 lbs./106 kilos at my heaviest 1.5 years ago so I was obese. I’m now around 170 lbs./77 kilos. Similar to gaining body fat, losing it happens slowly in a normal setting, on average about a pound/.5 kilos per week which is about 4 in one month. It doesn’t seem like it’s happening sometimes but it adds up if you keep going. Scale weight changes every day because it depends on the food that you just ate, the food that’s still in your intestines, how much water/fluid you're holding which depends on your salt and aldosterone, muscle, and true body fat/adipose tissue. But the important thing when it comes to losing “weight" is not just losing “weight” but losing excess body fat/adipose tissue. You will know when you're actually losing body fat because you can see it, measure it, and feel it. We’re born with a set number of fat cells so it’s not that fat people generate more fat cells as they get fat, it’s that their set fat cells just collect more and more free triglycerides in the blood which come from food, mostly fats. They latch on to the fat cells and you just get bigger and bigger. That’s how it gets there. Visceral fat and blood sugar issues go hand in hand, which I was also able to fix.

For me, the key force in losing visceral fat was eating a low fat diet, in combination with doing some kind of movement. “Some kind of movement" is also not “anti-Peat.” See here: Positive Peat quotes on exercise

"Some muscle-building resistance exercise might help to increase the anabolic ratio, reducing the belly fat.”- RP

Let’s go through the three type of fats. Polyunsaturated/PUFA, monounsaturated/MUFA, and saturated/SAFA. I don't count fish fat when the whole fish is eaten because fish is mostly protein and it's fat content for weight/fat gain is negligible. It's the "pure" fats that are the problem.

Sources of PUFA: See here: Pufa In Foods?

Sources of MUFA: Pretty much just olives, avocados, nuts, and seeds and all of their oils and foods cooked in their oils.

Sources of SAFA: Any pure dairy fat product such as cheese, butter, ghee, cream, and ice cream, any dairy product that is not fat free/skim, coconut, palm oil, cacao fat, and some rare tropical palm fats that don’t really matter because you probably don’t have access to them. I don't think the SAFA intact in ruminant meats is a problem, unless consumed daily, which then the amino acids would be more of a problem.

I’ve successfully eliminated my visceral fat by keeping all of those low. There is no reason to eat any of the above in more than small quantities, to me. I’ve found that the most fattening are nuts, seeds, any kind of oil, and any kind of dairy cream/dairy fat. In practice that means little to no nuts or nut/seed butters like peanut butter, deep fried foods, free oils as in mayo and dressings and condiments put on food, and dairy fat meaning all dairy fat. My taste adjusted to low fat over time. Satiation comes from fiber and fruit/starch calories and not from fat for me. Eating like that in combination with enough sleep and the right kind of movement worked. It takes practice and dedication.

If the thought of eating low-fat seems boring to you then it is because your taste is neural-adpated to stimulate dopamine when fat hits your tongue. But you can neural-adpat to low fat after some time. You also have to ask yourself what is more important; fixing your problems of visceral fat and blood sugar issues or neural-adpating to a diet that works? For a lot of people, the pain and discomfort motivates them to change.

People misunderstand my views on dietary fat. I do not think it's "evil" or the cause "of every problem." I think the over consumption of it is the main problem, dietary-wise. Other offenders are most flour products, corn syrup, and food additives that cause a strain on the organs. I also think the obsession with protein is causing problems and the lack of fiber from whole fruit and other fibers and the lack of magnesium from green plants are contributory dietary-wise as well.

Unless you're a thyroid master like Peat, and you know the exact dosages to take to put yourself in a slightly hypermetabolic state, then taking thyroid may not work for losing visceral fat. I tried that and almost went to the ER. I've found doing it the way I did was best for me.

See here for my post on Sept. 6th, 2014 where I almost went to the ER which was right before I started my low fat diet and was the springboard for me to want to start it: Very high reverse T3

 

[damngoodcoffee]

@Westside PUFAs are you a vegan nowadays?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

@Westside PUFAs are you a vegan nowadays?

I assume you mean do I eat a "vegan" diet nowadays? No. I eat chicken eggs and duck eggs, very lean beef/bison, and fat free goat dairy sporadically making sure to choose the lowest fat options. Some days may be "vegan" simply because I ran out of those products that day or because I didn't feel a need for them that day. Veganism is not a diet. I also consume bee products.

 

[mujuro]

The whole field is broscience, but I don't buy the organ growth claim. It's visceral fat from insulin injections and chronically high stress from the other drugs and lifting regimen, in conjunction with massive caloric surplus. Some of them do get surgery to remove the fat deposits. They don't get segments of intestine removed, they get fat sucked out.

I'm too lazy to dig up references but I've seen evidence that it takes high intensity training, such as circuit weight training and sprint intervals, to reduce visceral fat. Sustained lower intensity is not very effective and caloric restriction is not very effective. From this I would infer the bit about growth hormone supplementation is probably onto something. You do get a surge of endogenous HGH from hard intervals.

+1 I believe the elevations of IGF-1 may cause growth of the small intestine due to the high turnover of its cells but I don't think organ growth accounts for the bulk of the mass. What you'll also notice accompanying this distended belly is a new level of muscle thickness and fullness. This is marbling of the muscle, due to insulin resistance.

bobby, I tried both methods. Working off the writing of Lyle McDonald, I would ingest caffeine, tyrosine and then do 5 minutes HIIT in order to create a surge of catecholamines. Immediately following this I would do 25 minutes LISS and fast for another 2 hours, allowing passive fat oxidation to continue. Both worked well for me.

There is a researcher who goes by the handle Datbtrue and whose special field of interest is growth hormone. He is a lesser-known "guru" (he hates the term) in bodybuilding circles. He has owned and run a private forum for many years now, and if Peat's take home lesson is "PUFA = unhealth", then Datbtrue's take home lesson would be "everything in nature works in pulses/cycles" or "GH = good, IGF-1 = bad". He champions the secretagogues BECAUSE they are pulsatile in their mode of action. They initiate a brief but intense surge in endogenous growth hormone. Typical growth hormone used in bodybuilding is the recombinant type, the 191aa isoform. It has a long plasma half life and thus creates periods of prolonged elevations in IGF-1, which is the real villain implicated in aging and cancer. Dogma and misinformation persist, and so despite secretagogues being superior in every way, rHGH continues to be the choice of most bodybuilders.

 

[tara]

Sources of MUFA: Pretty much just olives, avocados, nuts, and seeds and all of their oils and foods cooked in their oils.

Milk, beef and lamb fat, all contain significant portions of MUFA too.

 

[Tenacity]

@Westside PUFAs How much fat constitutes as 'low fat'?

 

[Milky]

Your concern about visceral fat is warranted. It’s not good stuff. This is what visceral fat can do to your kidneys:

@Westside PUFAs: If you're going to post photos that are hosted on NSFW hosting sites, could you please warn us? You just caused me to hit my content filter at my job.

Mods: Please put an end to this guy's recklessness. I don't care how many good points everyone thinks he makes, there is no excuse for this.