Visceral Fat Composition

Kyle M

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Don't really understand your statement. Visceral fat produces all the inflammatory adipokines. I don't think I'm making that up. That is proven anatomical science. How can you see a deeper cause than metabolism? PUFAs are being ingested, they are being stored (somewhere), and they are contributing to hormonal/metabolic disturbances. Please enlighten me on how this is a symptom and not the cause.
1) The adipocytes are not necessarily produce all of, or even most of, the cytokines found there. Most of those proteins are likely produced by macrophages that have infiltrated the tissue. This suggests that an inflammatory process is occurring to draw them in and activate them, which may be caused by the presence of the fat itself, or by something else that also causes the deposition of large amounts of fat into the tissue depot.

2) When fat, including PUFA, is stored in adipocytes, that is when it is at it's least metabolically active. It's when that fat is mobilized that it causes problems. Visceral fat has greater turnover than subcutaneous, so what is likely happening is a chronic situation where a metabolic miscommunication is causing fatty acids to be pushed into visceral adipocytes, as well as being pulled out of lipid droplets to go into the blood as free fatty acids for energy, in a futile cycle that is being caused by dysregulating inflammation. Bacterial endotoxin or bacteria themselves are likely present in the tissue or the blood nourishing the tissue.

3) PUFA has two main modes of causing trouble, one being in it's virgin state it slows down enzymatic processes and gunks up cellular action in general, and two being that it's downstream metabolites and breakdown products are specifically inflammatory and/or oxidative. The best case scenario if you have a lot of PUFA coming in is that you store it in adipocytes and then slowly oxidize it in the lipid droplets for local energy without lipolyzing and releasing it into the blood again. I believe that PUFA is more of a problem when it is in places other than adipocytes, like muscle, liver, and the blood.
 
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Colin Nordstrom
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Kyle, you make a lot of interesting points. Inflammation is definitely a chicken or the egg scenario. You've pointed my mind in a better direction. If saturated fat is predominantly in visceral fat stores, and PUFA is predominantly in SC stores, then it could be simply a localized inflammatory response at that area. Visceral fat does have greater blood flow and more cortisol receptors than SC fat. It is also more efficient at converting cortisone to cortisol. Maybe it's less of a question of what the composition of visceral fat is vs. what inflammatory/stress environment it facilitates.

Not to take anything away from your others points because I agree PUFA floating around in the blood and lodging in the liver are huge problems.
 
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Kyle M

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One other point, when it is said that a food is a "good source of saturated fat" or PUFA or whatever, it doesn't mean it's 99% that type of fatty acid. A "balanced" profile would be one-third each type, PUFA, MUFA, and SFA, right? Coconut oil is very very high in SFA, well over 90%, but most "saturated fats" are nowhere near that percentage. Many of them have as much or more MUFA as SFA, and pork these days has as much linoleic acid as the entire SFA contribution combined. Beef fat usually has little PUFA, in the single digits percent, but it has basically an equal percentage of MUFA and SFA. Grass fed beef has slightly more SFA and slightly less unsaturated, down to the low single digits, but it isn't a huge difference unless you are looking at specific PUFA species.

This is the same when fat depots are reported. You have to find the raw numbers or percentages, and not trust when someone reports that a fat depot is "mostly saturated" or "mostly unsaturated." That could mean 40% SFA, since that would only leave 30 and 30 for MUFA and PUFA.

It's a slippery language situation.
 

charlie

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Sorry I can't post links.
You should be able to now. Still adjusting the parameters of the new spam software, it's pretty aggressive out of the box. Been dialing it back to find the sweet spot.

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paymanz

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One other point, when it is said that a food is a "good source of saturated fat" or PUFA or whatever, it doesn't mean it's 99% that type of fatty acid. A "balanced" profile would be one-third each type, PUFA, MUFA, and SFA, right? Coconut oil is very very high in SFA, well over 90%, but most "saturated fats" are nowhere near that percentage. Many of them have as much or more MUFA as SFA, and pork these days has as much linoleic acid as the entire SFA contribution combined. Beef fat usually has little PUFA, in the single digits percent, but it has basically an equal percentage of MUFA and SFA. Grass fed beef has slightly more SFA and slightly less unsaturated, down to the low single digits, but it isn't a huge difference unless you are looking at specific PUFA species.

This is the same when fat depots are reported. You have to find the raw numbers or percentages, and not trust when someone reports that a fat depot is "mostly saturated" or "mostly unsaturated." That could mean 40% SFA, since that would only leave 30 and 30 for MUFA and PUFA.

It's a slippery language situation.
And milk has more SFA than fat depot in the animal's body, that's interesting.
 

paymanz

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The best case scenario if you have a lot of PUFA coming in is that you store it in adipocytes and then slowly oxidize it in the lipid droplets for local energy without lipolyzing and releasing it into the blood again.
That's my question for a while,

So we are able to use fat without lipilysis and liberation of fatty acids into blood stream?

Or is that only for adipocytes? Other cells, muscles, can't use the fat locally without lipolysis?!

Ray says muscles use fat when they are resting , they absorb free fatty acids from blood or they use local fats near them?
 

Kyle M

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That's my question for a while,

So we are able to use fat without lipilysis and liberation of fatty acids into blood stream?

Or is that only for adipocytes? Other cells, muscles, can't use the fat locally without lipolysis?!

Ray says muscles use fat when they are resting , they absorb free fatty acids from blood or they use local fats near them?
Any tissue that can oxidize fatty acids can use local fatty acids, I was referring to lipolysis of lipid droplets and the export of fatty acids from adipocytes to blood. Non-adipocyte cells don't store fatty acids the same way, so they are relatively free to be oxidized or are in some kind of structural complex like phospholipid.
 

smith

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Superficial subcutaneous fat appears to be extremely high in babies and healthy(not malnourished) children. SuperSub fat is unsaturated, so perhaps what comprises it is the single "safe" unsaturated fat Mead Acid/omega-9 that Ray spoke about?
 

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