Very High Salt Intake (50g A Day) Increases Metabolism, Makes People Energetic And Happy

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zarrin77

zarrin77

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@zarrin77

I start by saying I totally agree with you on fruits.

That being said, I think most of Ray's recommendations of orange juice for example are a matter of convenience for the common people, and the comparative difficulty of finding ripe fruits in most of the developed world.

I find it disappointing when people reduce Ray's ideas down to certain patterns. In many interviews, he's spoken glowingly about the potential of fruits for the human diet, and even about the possibility of combining different fruits to obtain complete proteins.

And regarding, good bacteria, he's also had several good quotes on the anti-inflammatory effect of lactobacilli, and has even said that he thinks yogurt without the lactic acid is safe, and an interesting food.

There is a lot of nuance to what he says. One man can't know everything, but I'm unabashedly a fan of this man and I think it's sad when people either follow the ''RP diet of milk and OJ'' without thinking for themselves, or when people reduce Ray's ideas down too much. Perceive, Think, Act. That's it, rant over! :)

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this =)
 
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zarrin77

zarrin77

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Some points I can agree with. Not too much to sneeze at.

If you are arguing that eating whole fruit is better than not eating any fruit-derived food products, then, other than a few carnivores and a segment of members with dental problems, most will agree with you.

If you are arguing that whole fruit has "a much stronger health-promoting effect" than fruit juice, I'd like to see those RCTs. If your "fantastic long term human evidence" consists of nutritional epidemiology, I guess you didn't get the memo, so brace yourself for some bad news. Nutrional epidemiology is unable to prove whether humans thrive because of one food or despite that food or really prove anything.

The good news is that stack of printouts of dogmatic speculation based on goofy data from surveys (which even my program at the accounting and information management department strictly forbade us from conducting for our master theses due to obvious unreliability) can be reappropriated as the ideal solution to the covid19 TP dearth.

I barely read any epidemiology studies, and that’s not the type of research I’m referring to.

I’m not anti-fruit juice at all, and I’m all for convenience. I was saying above that I didn’t understand the “focus” on juice when whole fruit has better data.

Example:

The effect of fruit juice on weight / fat gain tends to be neutral or negative compared to whole fruit:

Fruit Consumption and Adiposity Status in Adults: A Systematic Review of Current Evidence - PubMed
“Consumption of whole fruit was found to contribute to a reduced risk for long-term weight gain in middle-aged adults. Experimental trials suggest this beneficial effect of whole fruit is mediated by a reduction in total energy intake. Fruit juice, however, had an opposing effect, promoting weight gain over the long term.”

Impact of Whole, Fresh Fruit Consumption on Energy Intake and Adiposity: A Systematic Review
“RCTs, and particularly those of higher quality, suggest that increasing whole, fresh fruit consumption promotes weight maintenance or modest weight loss over periods of 3–24 weeks (moderate certainty), with limited evidence suggesting that a high intake of fruit favors weight loss among people with overweight or obesity.”

*****Intake of Whole Apples or Clear Apple Juice Has Contrasting Effects on Plasma Lipids in Healthy Volunteers - PubMed. << Really good study to show the differences by keeping or removing the fiber & polyphenols in the fruit
Results: The intervention significantly affected serum total and LDL-cholesterol. Trends towards a lower serum LDL-concentration were observed after whole apple (6.7%), pomace (7.9%) and cloudy juice (2.2%) intake. On the other hand, LDL-cholesterol concentrations increased by 6.9% with clear juice compared to whole apples and pomace.”

Association Between Consumption of Fruit or Processed Fruit and Chronic Diseases and Their Risk Factors: A Systematic Review of Meta-Analyses - PubMed
“The results showed that the degree of processing influences the health effects of fruit-based products. Fresh and dried fruits appeared to have a neutral or protective effect on health, 100% fruit juices had intermediary effects, and high consumption of canned fruit and sweetened fruit juice was positively associated with the risk of all-cause mortality and type 2 diabetes, respectively.”

Moreover, the fiber in fruit (pectin, for example), can have independent benefits (rodent data, pectin hasn’t been studied in humans like this to my knowledge):

Switching from a high-fat cellulose diet to a high-fat pectin diet reverses certain obesity-related morbidities

Regulation of thermogenic capacity in brown and white adipocytes by the prebiotic high-esterified pectin and its postbiotic acetate

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Dawley_rats_fed_with_high-fathigh-energy_diet


Again, I really am not trying to argue against Peat or anything. I am here because I agree with most of his ideas, and he is so far ahead of most nutritionists etc.
 

yerrag

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Magnesium citrate. Now only learned that it's not good for histamine issues

Is that right? I also wasn't aware of that. I've used it before but being that the elemental magnesium content is low, I had to take a large amount of it. I never got around to taking a large amount of it, so maybe that's why I didn't experience any bad effects from it. Elemental magnesium is just 11% of the salt in weight. If I wanted to take 600 mg of magnesium, I'd have to take 5500mg of it, and 4900mg of it would be in citrates. Since I'm taking it for the magnesium and not the citrate, magnesium citrate wouldn't be a good choice, especially given some of the downsides of citric acid.

The cost (if bought prepared as a solution) and the trouble (making your own with a carbonator) aside, I would go with magnesium bicarbonate. Once you got the setup going, an initial inconvenience, you'd be making your own magnesium bicarbonate cheaply. And once you're done with therapeutic supplementation, say after a year, you can still make your own seltzer water. I currently mix my own b-complex taurine drink with the seltzer water. With some sugar and some citrus juice, it tastes and looks like Mountain Dew. What you add to the seltzer is dependent on your needs and your imagination. I'm adding ginger extract and my backyard-grown aloe vera chunks to it next.

And the CO2 tank can also provide CO2 that you can fill a plastic bag with, and that bag can be used to help with wound healing.

The tempting thing to take is magnesium chloride. It's cheap and convenient, but a daily intake of it led me to having acidosis as it's a daily cumulative acid load. It lowered my immune levels and I ended up with a dry cough that never went away until I figured out what was going on.

Some members swear by magnesium oxide, which is cheap and they haven't had anything bad to say, despite the popular negative things said about it. I've not tried it, but it may be worth testing.
 

Ogilvie

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Zarrin77, could you please spell out how your make your Potassium bicarbonate/Taurine drink, please? I've searched all your threads as well as your website but can't find the recipe. Thanks in advance, and I really enjoy your articles and your contributions here.
 

Vinny

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I’ve found the opposite to work better for me. Load up on sodium then magnesium seems to have much more potent effects. But both aren’t retrained and utilized well unless ATP/thyroid is present to make use of them. Both magnesium and salt just run directly out though your urine unless your cells retain them.
Thanks
 

yerrag

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I was asking @Nebula what form of magnesium he was taking to further make sense of what he was saying. There is only one kind of salt, when referring to sodium - NaCl, generally speaking. But what one experiences with one magnesium salt would be different with another magnesium salt. That's why it would help to know what magnesium salt he was taking.

Nebula was also saying something that contradicts what I'm saying, and that is fine with me, as I could be wrong, and I'd like to know some details.

What was the magnesium salt he was taking? How much each day? In one dose or in two doses, or three doses? It matters how much you take in one dose, especially when it's a large dose.
 

Kevtoon2905

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"The basal me- tabolism then stood at 35-39 Cal/m2/hr., which was well consid- ered to be in the neighbourhood of the upper limit of the normal range. The metabolism rose on the third day of the increased salt formula,- 10g. of extra salt were given with each meal, in other words there was an intake of some 50-60g. every day. On the sixth day the subject had a swollen face, congestion of the ocular conjunctivae, and com- plained of a general feeling of weak- ness. The basal metabolism began to decline. "

So on one hand the salt made the metabolism higher and made people feel eremitic. And in another case it did the opposite...
 

Nebula

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I was asking @Nebula what form of magnesium he was taking to further make sense of what he was saying. There is only one kind of salt, when referring to sodium - NaCl, generally speaking. But what one experiences with one magnesium salt would be different with another magnesium salt. That's why it would help to know what magnesium salt he was taking.

Nebula was also saying something that contradicts what I'm saying, and that is fine with me, as I could be wrong, and I'd like to know some details.

What was the magnesium salt he was taking? How much each day? In one dose or in two doses, or three doses? It matters how much you take in one dose, especially when it's a large dose.
I haven’t noticed a significant difference between magnesium forms or dose amounts except obviously very large amounts that induce loose bowels. Retention/utilization seems completely dependent on ATP/T3.
 

yerrag

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I haven’t noticed a significant difference between magnesium forms or dose amounts except obviously very large amounts that induce loose bowels. Retention/utilization seems completely dependent on ATP/T3.
Thanks. It's not easy to notice differences, especially with regards to effects that are hard to notice, like the effect on acid-base balance, or retention and utilization - as effects are not manifested immediately. If effects do come, they could come at a later time where we can't make the connection. That was the case with my daily intake of magnesium chloride- it took 3 months for me to notice that it caused my acid-base balance to go very acidic. By then, I was already having a prolonged dry cough that would never go away. Had I not come across an article on the acidic load of different electrolyte mineral salts, I would never have found out.

The only readily noticeable effect of magnesium salt intake is with its ability to cause diarrhea. It's interesting that you experienced better results with magnesium intake when you take in salt before it. I wonder if you could elaborate more on that. If you have amounts and the magnesium salt used, that would be great.
 
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zarrin77

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"The basal me- tabolism then stood at 35-39 Cal/m2/hr., which was well consid- ered to be in the neighbourhood of the upper limit of the normal range. The metabolism rose on the third day of the increased salt formula,- 10g. of extra salt were given with each meal, in other words there was an intake of some 50-60g. every day. On the sixth day the subject had a swollen face, congestion of the ocular conjunctivae, and com- plained of a general feeling of weak- ness. The basal metabolism began to decline. "

So on one hand the salt made the metabolism higher and made people feel eremitic. And in another case it did the opposite...

This was in the summer time when they realized that people became “salt overloaded” sooner. In the winter they could handle more salt and it had beneficial effects. In the summer, negative effects started sooner.

Keep in mind though, both for the summer and winter, the dosages were absolutely massive. So still a pretty high ceiling in all likelihood.
Plus, we don’t know know if it was due to an imbalance. Raising Na / K / Mg/ Ca all together (relatively, not same doses) would likely give the best results.
 
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zarrin77

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Zarrin77, could you please spell out how your make your Potassium bicarbonate/Taurine drink, please? I've searched all your threads as well as your website but can't find the recipe. Thanks in advance, and I really enjoy your articles and your contributions here.

It came from this paper (attached).

29B71C12-995E-4A93-B70F-E56ADE2EA133.jpeg


So, 1 L of water, 6g of potassium bicarbonate, and 7.5 g of taurine, to copy the author here.

I play with the dosages a bit, tend to use less taurine, but just try it this way first and adjust from there.
 

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Tarmander

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Amazoniac

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- Sodium excretion in relation to calcium and hydroxyproline excretion in a healthy Japanese population

"[It is generally accepted] that urinary output of sodium accurately reflects its intake (19)."

"Shortt and Flynn (2) summarized previously reported results of different clinical studies of the relation between urinary sodium and calcium excretion in healthy subjects, and showed that in most of the studies urinary calcium increased by an average of 0.6-1.5 mmol for a 100-mmol increase in urinary sodium. In the present epidemiologic study, we estimated from the results of the multivariate analyses that the increases in urinary calcium excretion for a 100-mmol increase in urinary sodium excretion were 0.6-1.0 mmol."

"Because bone is a major reservoir of collagen in the body, increased bone resorption is expected to be accompanied by increased urinary excretion of hydroxyproline."​

⬑ [2] Sodium-calcium inter-relationships with specific reference to osteoporosis

- The Nature and Significance of the Relationship between urinary Sodium and urinary Calcium in Women

upload_2020-4-20_21-2-54.png

"The slopes are very similar in the two groups (~1 mmol [40 mg] change in urinary calcium for every 100 mmol [2300 mg] change in urinary sodium), although the intercept on the y-axis is higher in the postmenopausal group, i.e., there is more calcium in the urine at zero sodium."

"It is not possible to deduce from these data whether the sodium or the calcium is the independent variable in the relation between them, but intervention studies indicate that it is generally the sodium. Quite modest salt restriction and supplementation reduce and increase urinary calcium, respectively."

"This is not to say that the relation between urinary sodium and calcium is always sodium driven. Primary changes in calcium load can also have secondary effects on urinary sodium, but this is generally seen only in severe hypercalcemia. However, an oral calcium load may have the same effect, as previously reported by Reid et al. (1986), who found that the rise in urinary sodium after a calcium load was ~20 times the rise in urinary calcium. Similar data are shown in Table 9. A 25-mmol load of calcium raised the urinary calcium by 2.3 mmol and the urinary sodium by 21 mmol, a ratio of about 1 to 10."

"Thus the ratio of change in sodium to change in calcium is much smaller when calcium is the determinant than would be expected from the ratio of change in calcium to change in sodium when sodium is the determinant."​
 

cyclops

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For example, during Ray’s time...

Ray's still alive and active, so his time is today. Also he has changed his opinion on things before, so I think if he came across new research that he felt disproved his earlier ideas he would acknowledge that and share his new thoughts.
 

yerrag

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Ray's still alive and active, so his time is today. Also he has changed his opinion on things before, so I think if he came across new research that he felt disproved his earlier ideas he would acknowledge that and share his new thoughts.
And Ray is at his prime, where he is most productive in synthesizing the knowledge he's accumulated and putting them all together in insightful analysis.
 

SOMO

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What would high salt intake do with Histamine and Mast Cell activation?

Salt lowers Histamine.

-Anything that raises Stomach Acid will lower histamine.
-Stomach acid reducing drugs raise histamine.

I don't think it's the Sodium though, it's most likely the Chloride, forming HCl.

I think "histamine reactions" from food are likely due to low stomach acid, which allows undigested proteins to escape into the intestines where they are picked up by the immune system.

I barely read any epidemiology studies, and that’s not the type of research I’m referring to.

I’m not anti-fruit juice at all, and I’m all for convenience. I was saying above that I didn’t understand the “focus” on juice when whole fruit has better data.

Example:

The effect of fruit juice on weight / fat gain tends to be neutral or negative compared to whole fruit:

Fruit Consumption and Adiposity Status in Adults: A Systematic Review of Current Evidence - PubMed
“Consumption of whole fruit was found to contribute to a reduced risk for long-term weight gain in middle-aged adults. Experimental trials suggest this beneficial effect of whole fruit is mediated by a reduction in total energy intake. Fruit juice, however, had an opposing effect, promoting weight gain over the long term.”

Impact of Whole, Fresh Fruit Consumption on Energy Intake and Adiposity: A Systematic Review
“RCTs, and particularly those of higher quality, suggest that increasing whole, fresh fruit consumption promotes weight maintenance or modest weight loss over periods of 3–24 weeks (moderate certainty), with limited evidence suggesting that a high intake of fruit favors weight loss among people with overweight or obesity.”

*****Intake of Whole Apples or Clear Apple Juice Has Contrasting Effects on Plasma Lipids in Healthy Volunteers - PubMed. << Really good study to show the differences by keeping or removing the fiber & polyphenols in the fruit
Results: The intervention significantly affected serum total and LDL-cholesterol. Trends towards a lower serum LDL-concentration were observed after whole apple (6.7%), pomace (7.9%) and cloudy juice (2.2%) intake. On the other hand, LDL-cholesterol concentrations increased by 6.9% with clear juice compared to whole apples and pomace.”

Association Between Consumption of Fruit or Processed Fruit and Chronic Diseases and Their Risk Factors: A Systematic Review of Meta-Analyses - PubMed
“The results showed that the degree of processing influences the health effects of fruit-based products. Fresh and dried fruits appeared to have a neutral or protective effect on health, 100% fruit juices had intermediary effects, and high consumption of canned fruit and sweetened fruit juice was positively associated with the risk of all-cause mortality and type 2 diabetes, respectively.”

Moreover, the fiber in fruit (pectin, for example), can have independent benefits (rodent data, pectin hasn’t been studied in humans like this to my knowledge):

Switching from a high-fat cellulose diet to a high-fat pectin diet reverses certain obesity-related morbidities

Regulation of thermogenic capacity in brown and white adipocytes by the prebiotic high-esterified pectin and its postbiotic acetate

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Dawley_rats_fed_with_high-fathigh-energy_diet


Again, I really am not trying to argue against Peat or anything. I am here because I agree with most of his ideas, and he is so far ahead of most nutritionists etc.

Some of these studies were done in overweight/obese people, so replacing any aspect of their diet with something lower calorie would result in weight loss.

Replacing an isocaloric amount of PUFA processed food with fruit would still likely result in weight loss.

Also I'm not sure lower LDL is better.
 
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Salt lowers Histamine.

-Anything that raises Stomach Acid will lower histamine.
-Stomach acid reducing drugs raise histamine.
Isn't that the opposite? Drugs that block stomach acid are PPI-s and Histamine-2 receptor blockers (like Zantac). Anaphylaxis will give you a ton of histamine and you will vomit your brains out. High histamine will give you good stomach acid, but will cause leaky gut down the line if not degraded properly - it's an inflammatory mediator and increases capillary permeability.
 

SOMO

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Isn't that the opposite? Drugs that block stomach acid are PPI-s and Histamine-2 receptor blockers (like Zantac). Anaphylaxis will give you a ton of histamine and you will vomit your brains out. High histamine will give you good stomach acid, but will cause leaky gut down the line if not degraded properly - it's an inflammatory mediator and increases capillary permeability.

1. Histamine increases stomach/gastric acid, and antihistamines lower stomach acid.
You're correct, the increase in stomach acid by histamine is BAD long-term, but short-term it's a defensive mechanism against allergens.


2. I think if someone has hypochloridia/LOW Stomach Acid (which seems to be quite common,) taking antihistamines is a bad idea.


3. Anything that increase stomach acid will decrease histamine.
-One way of improving hypochloridia is with regular table salt.
When blood from a sensitized rabbit was incubated with the specific antigen there was almost always a marked increase in the concentration of plasma histamine. (In 21 experiments, the mean plasma histamine of control samples was 0.6 Itg./ ml. and after incubation with antigen 1.8 ttg./ml.) When blood from normal rabbits was incubated with the same concentration of the antigen no release took place. (In 3 rabbits the mean level of plasma histamine in untreated blood was 0.45 /Lg./ml. and after treatment 0.49 jug./ml.) In sensitized blood treated with antigen, sodium salicylate caused a graded reduction in the level of plasma histamine depending upon the concentration employed (Fig. 1). In early experiments the control levels of plasma histamine were high, presumably because of a non-specific release, which also appeared to be reduced by the drug. Both sodium chloride and potassium chloride were effective inhibitors, but only at much higher molar concentrations than 100 0 80. r- ._ ._ E 60 0- -Oo 40- 20- 0 A 0 . D 0.001 0.01 0.1 Molar concentration of inhibitor FIo. 1.-Inhibition of the in vitro anaphylactic release of histamine from rabbit blood cells. Blood from sensitized rabbits was incubated with the specific antigen (horse serum 1: 250) in the presence of inhibitors for 15 min. at 37.5° C. The plasma histamine level obtained in the presence of antigen+drug was compared with that found after treatment with antigen only (=100%). A, 3-hydroxy-2-phenylcinchoninic acid; B, sodium salicylate and sodium benzoate; C, sodium chloride; D, potassium chloride. Standard deviations are shown by vertical bars. were needed with sodium salicylate. Since the regression lines for sodium chloride and potassium chloride were so close together it seemed likely that the inhibitory activity could be attributed to the anion. The inhibitory effect of sodium benzoate was found to equal that of sodium salicylate.
http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC1510554&blobtype=pdf
So NaCl and KCL reduced histamine, and it was likely due to the anion (Cl, not Na or K) and the anion adds to the stomach acid content.
On to the topic of salt...
Salt, due to the Chloride ion will increase stomach acid (H+ <--> Cl-)
The same effect would be seen with Potassium Chloride/Lite-Salt (KCl)


Interestingly, aspirin/sodium-salicylate also decreased histamine and it's probably because Aspirin is acidic, but aspirin also has many other biological effects.

-Another, common home remedy, is ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) but any vinegar or acid will work, because it's increasing acidity/decreasing pH.

-------------------------------------

4. The histamine increase is partially because of low stomach acid and it is a defensive mechanism.


5. The increase in stomach acid (by histamine) can likely denature/digest the allergenic proteins in food- User Travis has some interesting posts about how Gluten and Casein exomorphins are immunogenic specificially because the prolines can't be broken down, and the use of enzymes like DPPIV to break down the proteins, rendering Gluten and Casein non-immunogenic. If the stomach acid post-histamine release is still not sufficient enough to denature the protein, it's likely anaphylaxis will ensue.

I think this is why peanuts are particularly allergenic - there is a storage protein similar to Gluten and Casein in peanuts called Arachin, which is hard to digest.
In addition, peanuts are frequently contaminated by aflatoxin.
jf00038a008.fp.png_v03



6. Histamine may also increase stomach acid to the point of killing bacteria/other microbes. Lo and behold, antihistamines may decrease stomach acid to the point where pathogens aren't killed by stomach acid:
Antihistamine Treatment for Stomach Acid Breeds Infection | Everyday Health


7. In general, medical dogma used to state that whole proteins can't be absorbed, but this is obviously false since whole proteins (like immunoglobulins from whey protein) have been used for their biomodulating effects.

8. I think anything that lowers stomach acid (including water, which will dilute/increase the pH) will cause undigested protein to enter the digestive tract and this itself is allergenic, regardless of anaphylaxis.

9. Any protein from any food, in any person, can be allergenic if it's not digested by stomach acid.



10. This increase in stomach acid by salt will reduce the need for histamine release from the gastric cells, making salt an "indirect" antihistamine. By antihistamine I mean something that inhibits histamine, but NOT a histamine-receptor-antagonist.
 
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1. Histamine increases stomach/gastric acid, and antihistamines lower stomach acid.
You're correct, the increase in stomach acid by histamine is BAD long-term, but short-term it's a defensive mechanism against allergens.


2. I think if someone has hypochloridia/LOW Stomach Acid (which seems to be quite common,) taking antihistamines is a bad idea.


3. Anything that increase stomach acid will decrease histamine.
-One way of improving hypochloridia is with regular table salt.

So NaCl and KCL reduced histamine, and it was likely due to the anion (Cl, not Na or K) and the anion adds to the stomach acid content.
On to the topic of salt...
Salt, due to the Chloride ion will increase stomach acid (H+ <--> Cl-)
The same effect would be seen with Potassium Chloride/Lite-Salt (KCl)


Interestingly, aspirin/sodium-salicylate also decreased histamine and it's probably because Aspirin is acidic, but aspirin also has many other biological effects.

-Another, common home remedy, is ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) but any vinegar or acid will work, because it's increasing acidity/decreasing pH.


-------------------------------------

4. The histamine increase is partially because of low stomach acid and it is a defensive mechanism.


5. The increase in stomach acid (by histamine) can likely denature/digest the allergenic proteins in food- User Travis has some interesting posts about how Gluten and Casein exomorphins are immunogenic specificially because the prolines can't be broken down, and the use of enzymes like DPPIV to break down the proteins, rendering Gluten and Casein non-immunogenic. If the stomach acid post-histamine release is still not sufficient enough to denature the protein, it's likely anaphylaxis will ensue.

I think this is why peanuts are particularly allergenic - there is a storage protein similar to Gluten and Casein in peanuts called Arachin, which is hard to digest.
In addition, peanuts are frequently contaminated by aflatoxin.
jf00038a008.fp.png_v03



6. Histamine may also increase stomach acid to the point of killing bacteria/other microbes. Lo and behold, antihistamines may decrease stomach acid to the point where pathogens aren't killed by stomach acid:
Antihistamine Treatment for Stomach Acid Breeds Infection | Everyday Health


7. In general, medical dogma used to state that whole proteins can't be absorbed, but this is obviously false since whole proteins (like immunoglobulins from whey protein) have been used for their biomodulating effects.

8. I think anything that lowers stomach acid (including water, which will dilute/increase the pH) will cause undigested protein to enter the digestive tract and this itself is allergenic, regardless of anaphylaxis.

9. Any protein from any food, in any person, can be allergenic if it's not digested by stomach acid.



10. This increase in stomach acid by salt will reduce the need for histamine release from the gastric cells, making salt an "indirect" antihistamine. By antihistamine I mean something that inhibits histamine, but NOT a histamine-receptor-antagonist.
Thx a lot! Yes - stomach acid is king. What is interesting cyproheptadine improved my digestion like nothing else (ginger, HCL, ACV), to the point that I can digest milk now. Probably due to stress reduction thus increasing hcl, because the improvements were gradual.
 

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