postman
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By what mechanism? I thought Ray said that high sodium consumption is magnesium sparingKind of a quick way to deplete yourself of magnesium
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By what mechanism? I thought Ray said that high sodium consumption is magnesium sparingKind of a quick way to deplete yourself of magnesium
@zarrin77
I start by saying I totally agree with you on fruits.
That being said, I think most of Ray's recommendations of orange juice for example are a matter of convenience for the common people, and the comparative difficulty of finding ripe fruits in most of the developed world.
I find it disappointing when people reduce Ray's ideas down to certain patterns. In many interviews, he's spoken glowingly about the potential of fruits for the human diet, and even about the possibility of combining different fruits to obtain complete proteins.
And regarding, good bacteria, he's also had several good quotes on the anti-inflammatory effect of lactobacilli, and has even said that he thinks yogurt without the lactic acid is safe, and an interesting food.
There is a lot of nuance to what he says. One man can't know everything, but I'm unabashedly a fan of this man and I think it's sad when people either follow the ''RP diet of milk and OJ'' without thinking for themselves, or when people reduce Ray's ideas down too much. Perceive, Think, Act. That's it, rant over! :)
Some points I can agree with. Not too much to sneeze at.
If you are arguing that eating whole fruit is better than not eating any fruit-derived food products, then, other than a few carnivores and a segment of members with dental problems, most will agree with you.
If you are arguing that whole fruit has "a much stronger health-promoting effect" than fruit juice, I'd like to see those RCTs. If your "fantastic long term human evidence" consists of nutritional epidemiology, I guess you didn't get the memo, so brace yourself for some bad news. Nutrional epidemiology is unable to prove whether humans thrive because of one food or despite that food or really prove anything.
The good news is that stack of printouts of dogmatic speculation based on goofy data from surveys (which even my program at the accounting and information management department strictly forbade us from conducting for our master theses due to obvious unreliability) can be reappropriated as the ideal solution to the covid19 TP dearth.
Magnesium citrate. Now only learned that it's not good for histamine issues
ThanksI’ve found the opposite to work better for me. Load up on sodium then magnesium seems to have much more potent effects. But both aren’t retrained and utilized well unless ATP/thyroid is present to make use of them. Both magnesium and salt just run directly out though your urine unless your cells retain them.
Thanks
I haven’t noticed a significant difference between magnesium forms or dose amounts except obviously very large amounts that induce loose bowels. Retention/utilization seems completely dependent on ATP/T3.I was asking @Nebula what form of magnesium he was taking to further make sense of what he was saying. There is only one kind of salt, when referring to sodium - NaCl, generally speaking. But what one experiences with one magnesium salt would be different with another magnesium salt. That's why it would help to know what magnesium salt he was taking.
Nebula was also saying something that contradicts what I'm saying, and that is fine with me, as I could be wrong, and I'd like to know some details.
What was the magnesium salt he was taking? How much each day? In one dose or in two doses, or three doses? It matters how much you take in one dose, especially when it's a large dose.
Thanks. It's not easy to notice differences, especially with regards to effects that are hard to notice, like the effect on acid-base balance, or retention and utilization - as effects are not manifested immediately. If effects do come, they could come at a later time where we can't make the connection. That was the case with my daily intake of magnesium chloride- it took 3 months for me to notice that it caused my acid-base balance to go very acidic. By then, I was already having a prolonged dry cough that would never go away. Had I not come across an article on the acidic load of different electrolyte mineral salts, I would never have found out.I haven’t noticed a significant difference between magnesium forms or dose amounts except obviously very large amounts that induce loose bowels. Retention/utilization seems completely dependent on ATP/T3.
"The basal me- tabolism then stood at 35-39 Cal/m2/hr., which was well consid- ered to be in the neighbourhood of the upper limit of the normal range. The metabolism rose on the third day of the increased salt formula,- 10g. of extra salt were given with each meal, in other words there was an intake of some 50-60g. every day. On the sixth day the subject had a swollen face, congestion of the ocular conjunctivae, and com- plained of a general feeling of weak- ness. The basal metabolism began to decline. "
So on one hand the salt made the metabolism higher and made people feel eremitic. And in another case it did the opposite...
Zarrin77, could you please spell out how your make your Potassium bicarbonate/Taurine drink, please? I've searched all your threads as well as your website but can't find the recipe. Thanks in advance, and I really enjoy your articles and your contributions here.
That is interesting. I have never seen him say thatBy what mechanism? I thought Ray said that high sodium consumption is magnesium sparing
For example, during Ray’s time...
And Ray is at his prime, where he is most productive in synthesizing the knowledge he's accumulated and putting them all together in insightful analysis.Ray's still alive and active, so his time is today. Also he has changed his opinion on things before, so I think if he came across new research that he felt disproved his earlier ideas he would acknowledge that and share his new thoughts.
What would high salt intake do with Histamine and Mast Cell activation?
I barely read any epidemiology studies, and that’s not the type of research I’m referring to.
I’m not anti-fruit juice at all, and I’m all for convenience. I was saying above that I didn’t understand the “focus” on juice when whole fruit has better data.
Example:
The effect of fruit juice on weight / fat gain tends to be neutral or negative compared to whole fruit:
Fruit Consumption and Adiposity Status in Adults: A Systematic Review of Current Evidence - PubMed
“Consumption of whole fruit was found to contribute to a reduced risk for long-term weight gain in middle-aged adults. Experimental trials suggest this beneficial effect of whole fruit is mediated by a reduction in total energy intake. Fruit juice, however, had an opposing effect, promoting weight gain over the long term.”
Impact of Whole, Fresh Fruit Consumption on Energy Intake and Adiposity: A Systematic Review
“RCTs, and particularly those of higher quality, suggest that increasing whole, fresh fruit consumption promotes weight maintenance or modest weight loss over periods of 3–24 weeks (moderate certainty), with limited evidence suggesting that a high intake of fruit favors weight loss among people with overweight or obesity.”
*****Intake of Whole Apples or Clear Apple Juice Has Contrasting Effects on Plasma Lipids in Healthy Volunteers - PubMed. << Really good study to show the differences by keeping or removing the fiber & polyphenols in the fruit
“Results: The intervention significantly affected serum total and LDL-cholesterol. Trends towards a lower serum LDL-concentration were observed after whole apple (6.7%), pomace (7.9%) and cloudy juice (2.2%) intake. On the other hand, LDL-cholesterol concentrations increased by 6.9% with clear juice compared to whole apples and pomace.”
Association Between Consumption of Fruit or Processed Fruit and Chronic Diseases and Their Risk Factors: A Systematic Review of Meta-Analyses - PubMed
“The results showed that the degree of processing influences the health effects of fruit-based products. Fresh and dried fruits appeared to have a neutral or protective effect on health, 100% fruit juices had intermediary effects, and high consumption of canned fruit and sweetened fruit juice was positively associated with the risk of all-cause mortality and type 2 diabetes, respectively.”
Moreover, the fiber in fruit (pectin, for example), can have independent benefits (rodent data, pectin hasn’t been studied in humans like this to my knowledge):
Switching from a high-fat cellulose diet to a high-fat pectin diet reverses certain obesity-related morbidities
Regulation of thermogenic capacity in brown and white adipocytes by the prebiotic high-esterified pectin and its postbiotic acetate
https://www.researchgate.net/public...Dawley_rats_fed_with_high-fathigh-energy_diet
Again, I really am not trying to argue against Peat or anything. I am here because I agree with most of his ideas, and he is so far ahead of most nutritionists etc.
Isn't that the opposite? Drugs that block stomach acid are PPI-s and Histamine-2 receptor blockers (like Zantac). Anaphylaxis will give you a ton of histamine and you will vomit your brains out. High histamine will give you good stomach acid, but will cause leaky gut down the line if not degraded properly - it's an inflammatory mediator and increases capillary permeability.Salt lowers Histamine.
-Anything that raises Stomach Acid will lower histamine.
-Stomach acid reducing drugs raise histamine.
Isn't that the opposite? Drugs that block stomach acid are PPI-s and Histamine-2 receptor blockers (like Zantac). Anaphylaxis will give you a ton of histamine and you will vomit your brains out. High histamine will give you good stomach acid, but will cause leaky gut down the line if not degraded properly - it's an inflammatory mediator and increases capillary permeability.
So NaCl and KCL reduced histamine, and it was likely due to the anion (Cl, not Na or K) and the anion adds to the stomach acid content.When blood from a sensitized rabbit was incubated with the specific antigen there was almost always a marked increase in the concentration of plasma histamine. (In 21 experiments, the mean plasma histamine of control samples was 0.6 Itg./ ml. and after incubation with antigen 1.8 ttg./ml.) When blood from normal rabbits was incubated with the same concentration of the antigen no release took place. (In 3 rabbits the mean level of plasma histamine in untreated blood was 0.45 /Lg./ml. and after treatment 0.49 jug./ml.) In sensitized blood treated with antigen, sodium salicylate caused a graded reduction in the level of plasma histamine depending upon the concentration employed (Fig. 1). In early experiments the control levels of plasma histamine were high, presumably because of a non-specific release, which also appeared to be reduced by the drug. Both sodium chloride and potassium chloride were effective inhibitors, but only at much higher molar concentrations than 100 0 80. r- ._ ._ E 60 0- -Oo 40- 20- 0 A 0 . D 0.001 0.01 0.1 Molar concentration of inhibitor FIo. 1.-Inhibition of the in vitro anaphylactic release of histamine from rabbit blood cells. Blood from sensitized rabbits was incubated with the specific antigen (horse serum 1: 250) in the presence of inhibitors for 15 min. at 37.5° C. The plasma histamine level obtained in the presence of antigen+drug was compared with that found after treatment with antigen only (=100%). A, 3-hydroxy-2-phenylcinchoninic acid; B, sodium salicylate and sodium benzoate; C, sodium chloride; D, potassium chloride. Standard deviations are shown by vertical bars. were needed with sodium salicylate. Since the regression lines for sodium chloride and potassium chloride were so close together it seemed likely that the inhibitory activity could be attributed to the anion. The inhibitory effect of sodium benzoate was found to equal that of sodium salicylate.
http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC1510554&blobtype=pdf
Low concentrations of acetic acid inhibit the histamine release by pH reduction
Effects of ethanol, acetaldehyde, and acetic acid on histamine secretion in guinea pig lung mast cells. - PubMed - NCBI
Thx a lot! Yes - stomach acid is king. What is interesting cyproheptadine improved my digestion like nothing else (ginger, HCL, ACV), to the point that I can digest milk now. Probably due to stress reduction thus increasing hcl, because the improvements were gradual.1. Histamine increases stomach/gastric acid, and antihistamines lower stomach acid.
You're correct, the increase in stomach acid by histamine is BAD long-term, but short-term it's a defensive mechanism against allergens.
2. I think if someone has hypochloridia/LOW Stomach Acid (which seems to be quite common,) taking antihistamines is a bad idea.
3. Anything that increase stomach acid will decrease histamine.
-One way of improving hypochloridia is with regular table salt.
So NaCl and KCL reduced histamine, and it was likely due to the anion (Cl, not Na or K) and the anion adds to the stomach acid content.
On to the topic of salt...
Salt, due to the Chloride ion will increase stomach acid (H+ <--> Cl-)
The same effect would be seen with Potassium Chloride/Lite-Salt (KCl)
Interestingly, aspirin/sodium-salicylate also decreased histamine and it's probably because Aspirin is acidic, but aspirin also has many other biological effects.
-Another, common home remedy, is ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) but any vinegar or acid will work, because it's increasing acidity/decreasing pH.
-------------------------------------
4. The histamine increase is partially because of low stomach acid and it is a defensive mechanism.
5. The increase in stomach acid (by histamine) can likely denature/digest the allergenic proteins in food- User Travis has some interesting posts about how Gluten and Casein exomorphins are immunogenic specificially because the prolines can't be broken down, and the use of enzymes like DPPIV to break down the proteins, rendering Gluten and Casein non-immunogenic. If the stomach acid post-histamine release is still not sufficient enough to denature the protein, it's likely anaphylaxis will ensue.
I think this is why peanuts are particularly allergenic - there is a storage protein similar to Gluten and Casein in peanuts called Arachin, which is hard to digest.
In addition, peanuts are frequently contaminated by aflatoxin.
6. Histamine may also increase stomach acid to the point of killing bacteria/other microbes. Lo and behold, antihistamines may decrease stomach acid to the point where pathogens aren't killed by stomach acid:
Antihistamine Treatment for Stomach Acid Breeds Infection | Everyday Health
7. In general, medical dogma used to state that whole proteins can't be absorbed, but this is obviously false since whole proteins (like immunoglobulins from whey protein) have been used for their biomodulating effects.
8. I think anything that lowers stomach acid (including water, which will dilute/increase the pH) will cause undigested protein to enter the digestive tract and this itself is allergenic, regardless of anaphylaxis.
9. Any protein from any food, in any person, can be allergenic if it's not digested by stomach acid.
10. This increase in stomach acid by salt will reduce the need for histamine release from the gastric cells, making salt an "indirect" antihistamine. By antihistamine I mean something that inhibits histamine, but NOT a histamine-receptor-antagonist.