Valid Perception Or Not: Creatures, Human Included, Taller And Bigger Where It's Colder

[yerrag]

When Rome was finally overrun by the Germans from the North, the impression I get is that the Germans were taller, larger, and stronger- and the smaller original Romans were no match. People from warmer climates are shorter, and those from colder climes taller. Think India and China - Northerners were taller, and southerners (in the Northern Hemisphere) were shorter. Anything with Siberia stamped seems to be supersized.

Why are people taller and larger when they come from cold places?
Isn't there less food in cold places, given that there is a winter season where no food is produced?
The food in cold climates also contain plenty of PUFAs. Why are these people not becoming marginalized, but instead they become world champions in many fields of sports where height and brawn give them an advantage?

I ask in the context of Ray Peat's ideas. Ray favors food with minimum of PUFA, meat sources that includes organs and connective tissues, and plenty of fruits, of which most are tropical. Of the oils, he favors coconut oil, which is also sourced tropically.

Are people in tropical regions better off because they have better access to these foods, that even while they are shorter in stature, they are generally biologically more healthy? Or is this not the case as there are other factors to consider, and what are these?

 

[Such_Saturation]

they become world champions in many fields of sports where height and brawn give them an advantage?

I'm not sure I'm watching the same Olympics you are

 

[jaguar43]

When Rome was finally overrun by the Germans from the North, the impression I get is that the Germans were taller, larger, and stronger- and the smaller original Romans were no match. People from warmer climates are shorter, and those from colder climes taller. Think India and China - Northerners were taller, and southerners (in the Northern Hemisphere) were shorter. Anything with Siberia stamped seems to be supersized.

Why are people taller and larger when they come from cold places?
Isn't there less food in cold places, given that there is a winter season where no food is produced?
The food in cold climates also contain plenty of PUFAs. Why are these people not becoming marginalized, but instead they become world champions in many fields of sports where height and brawn give them an advantage?

I ask in the context of Ray Peat's ideas. Ray favors food with minimum of PUFA, meat sources that includes organs and connective tissues, and plenty of fruits, of which most are tropical. Of the oils, he favors coconut oil, which is also sourced tropically.

Are people in tropical regions better off because they have better access to these foods, that even while they are shorter in stature, they are generally biologically more healthy? Or is this not the case as there are other factors to consider, and what are these?

In an interview Ray Peat spoke of an experiment in which tadpoles were given anti-thyroid hormone drops in the water in which they grew. They ended up growing up as large tadpoles instead of differentiating to frogs. But when tadpoles were given thyroid hormones they differentiated to small frogs. I don't know how one would measure the differentiated human, but it's possible that their are some characteristics that could be the same for humans as well. If one looks at movies from the 30's and 40's people "looked" different then they do today. More differentiation possibly. I am not sure if this the case.

Ray Peat has written on studies showing that rat's that have their pituitary removed lived longer than those would didn't. Dwarf rats that had less growth hormone lived longer.

A mutant dwarf mouse, called "little," has only 5% to 10% as much growth hormone as normal mice, and it has an abnormally long lifespan.

Removing animals' pituitaries, Denckla found that their aging was drastically slowed. He tried to isolate the death hormone from pituitary extracts. He concluded that it wasn't prolactin, although prolactin had some of its properties. In the last publication of his that I know of on that subject, he reported that he was unable to isolate the death hormone, but that it was "in the prolactin fraction." Since rats have at least 14 different peptides in their prolactin family, not counting the multitude of modifications that can occur depending on the exact conditions of secretion, it isn't surprising that isolating a single factor with exactly the properties of the chronically functioning aging pituitary hasn't been successful.

Growth hormone: Hormone of Stress, Aging, and Death?


If people are concerned about the effects of a TSH “deficiency,” then I think they have to explain the remarkable longevity of the animals lacking pituitaries in W.D. Denckla's experiments, or of the naturally pituitary deficient dwarf mice that lack TSH, prolactin, and growth hormone, but live about a year longer than normal mice

Preventing and treating cancer with progesterone.


Many dog owners are aware that small dogs eat much more food in proportion to their size than big dogs do. And small dogs have a much greater life expectancy than big dogs, in some cases about twice as long (Speakman, 2003).

Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity


The idea that eating more causes more "growth" is a myth. Since one can't force one self to eat more because it's the appetite that determines food intake to a certain degree. Broad Barnes spoke of people who were slightly hypothyroid were taller than average. The quote about small dogs eating more than large ones proves my point.

Since living in a cold area seems to decrease metabolic rate and possibly cause puberty to happen earlier than in the tropics. It would seem plausible that living in the cold area could activate the pituitary hormones earlier than average and low the metabolic rate. If the same conditions occur for the hyperthyroid frogs and the dwarf mice with humans. Then it's possible to have smaller humans live longer than average size or above average size.

I personally don't think being "larger" is an advantage that is useful to society. Since sports is pretty much a form of entertainment it's probably not something a society should strive for.

And last thing, if you think Rome fell because the invaders were "bigger" than you should rethink your argument and history as a whole.

 

[yerrag]

I'm not sure I'm watching the same Olympics you are

I'm not even watching. Ray Peat is more interesting

And last thing, if you think Rome fell because the invaders were "bigger" than you should rethink your argument and history as a whole.

History is more complicated, and I couldn't fit it in one sentence. But I got your helpful comments on growth and size not necessarily being a proxy for health and longevity. Thanks!

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Not. The Tahitans and Samoans are known to be tall and they're in the tropics. Some Africans as well. But anyone can be tall or short. For example, many Mexicans that are of the more direct Mayan decent, the darker and indiginous face ones, are known to be short. But some Irish and parts of Eastern Europe have people that are also short. So warm and cold but still the same result. Look up Giant Gonzales to see a really tall Native American.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Also, for non human animals, elephants, giraffes, crocodiles and anacondas are big animals in the warm climate. As well as dinosaurs.

 

[jaguar43]

Not. The Tahitans and Samoans are known to be tall and they're in the tropics. Some Africans as well. But anyone can be tall or short. For example, many Mexicans that are of the more direct Mayan decent, the darker and indiginous face ones, are known to be short. But some Irish and parts of Eastern Europe have people that are also short. So warm and cold but still the same result. Look up Giant Gonzales to see a really tall Native American.

I think it's important to not group along "racial" lines since it's hard to find a definite answer pre-colonization. Samoans are known to live in poverty which could increase their stress along with pituitary hormones. Samoans are also known to be obese which is factor in low metabolic rates.

 

[jaguar43]

Also, for non human animals, elephants, giraffes, crocodiles and anacondas are big animals in the warm climate. As well as dinosaurs.

I disagree, those characteristics are for those specific type of animals which they have evolve to suite their environment. Rats and mice are highly varied all across the world. I don't thats a good example.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I think it's important to not group along "racial" lines since it's hard to find a definite answer pre-colonization. Samoans are known to live in poverty which could increase their stress along with pituitary hormones. Samoans are also known to be obese which is factor in low metabolic rates.

Poverty and obesity in the pacific islands is only a few decades old. The Polynesians were tall long before a few decades ago. Read history of Hawaii and Tahihi. Some of the chiefs were 7 feet tall or more and Pacific Islanders of today are still known to be tall and aren't mixed with anyone else.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I disagree, those characteristics are for those specific type of animals which they have evolve to suite their environment. Rats and mice are highly varied all across the world. I don't thats a good example.

Then you don't value logic. The OP obviously didn't think their question through if they didn't think of those large animals from warm places.

 

[yerrag]

If one looks at movies from the 30's and 40's people "looked" different then they do today. More differentiation possibly. I am not sure if this the case.

In what way do they look different? Shorter? Thinner? Smaller bellies? Smaller breasts? Body tone more natural and less affected by hormones in foods? Has a natural glow and needs no makeup to look good on camera (granted it was b/w then).

The idea that eating more causes more "growth" is a myth. Since one can't force one self to eat more because it's the appetite that determines food intake to a certain degree.

To the extent that eating more than the body can digest and/or assimilate, yes. But I also am thinking about the elevation where one lives having an effect. At higher elevation, there is more carbon dioxide. And if that can help better the efficiency of metabolism, could that help growth as well? Maybe it is elevation and the effect of more carbon dioxide more than the cold temperature that affects growth?

Since living in a cold area seems to decrease metabolic rate and possibly cause puberty to happen earlier than in the tropics. It would seem plausible that living in the cold area could activate the pituitary hormones earlier than average and low the metabolic rate.

How does living in a cold area activate the pituitary hormones earlier?

 

[yerrag]

Then you don't value logic. The OP obviously didn't think their question through if they didn't think of those large animals from warm places.

It's logical to expect an apples to apples comparison though. And that is what I think jag2594 is saying.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Why are people taller and larger when they come from cold places?
Isn't there less food in cold places, given that there is a winter season where no food is produced??

Yes, but there is a lower population density. Since people don't actually count calories, northern people need to have plenty of food stored to survive the winter. In the case of Romans, it probably had more to do with Rome being a highly complex empire relying on grains while the Germanics would eat more meat, being a simpler society.

The best athletes come from Africa, because that is where 90% of human genetic diversity is. SO you have populations that have a slight advantage in running far, and others with jumping or running fast, some are tall and other tiny.

 

[jaguar43]

In what way do they look different? Shorter? Thinner? Smaller bellies? Smaller breasts? Body tone more natural and less affected by hormones in foods? Has a natural glow and needs no makeup to look good on camera (granted it was b/w then).

I think face development.

To the extent that eating more than the body can digest and/or assimilate, yes. But I also am thinking about the elevation where one lives having an effect. At higher elevation, there is more carbon dioxide. And if that can help better the efficiency of metabolism, could that help growth as well? Maybe it is elevation and the effect of more carbon dioxide more than the cold temperature that affects growth?

I am not sure about the elevation part.

How does living in a cold area activate the pituitary hormones earlier?

Although it used to be said that "hot tropical" people had early puberty, and "cold northern" types had late puberty, the best available data contradict that opinion. The oldest averages for the occurrence of puberty occur in tropical regions. - Ray Peat generative energy page 118.

Just like Ray Peat has said one needs more thyroid in the winter. The cold weather lowers metabolic rate.

 

[jaguar43]

Poverty and obesity in the pacific islands is only a few decades old. The Polynesians were tall long before a few decades ago. Read history of Hawaii and Tahihi. Some of the chiefs were 7 feet tall or more and Pacific Islanders of today are still known to be tall and aren't mixed with anyone else.

I don't deny that. And yes it's possible that certain groups of people are taller than the average and live in the tropics. But whether that is ideal or not is up for debate. I can't really say that living as a Polynesian was less or more stressful in the pre-colonization. A lot of things can effect growth so it's important to keep that in mind.

 

[wiggles92]

The best athletes come from Africa, because that is where 90% of human genetic diversity is. SO you have populations that have a slight advantage in running far, and others with jumping or running fast, some are tall and other tiny.

They are definitely the best at running events. They don't win very many swimming events, or pure strength events though, both of which are measures of athleticism. I'd be interested to know where you got the 90% figure from.

 

[Brian]

Males in traditional Sudanese tribes (there are several, Masai are just the most well known) are on average well over 6ft tall. Dairy has been a staple for many generations.

I think height has a lot to do with reliably abundant calories, protein and calcium throughout infancy all the way to adulthood, for hundreds of years. Northern Europeans have probably been consistently consuming dairy for at least 8,000 years. Plenty of time to strongly influence both genetics and epigenetics to make use of high calcium and protein intake.

Other Northern traditional cultures such as the Sami and Inuit who don't have a very abundant calcium source tend to be much shorter.

Herbivores can also evolve to be freakishly huge when they live in climates with abundance of year round grasses that are very high in protein and calcium when grazed on all day.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

They are definitely the best at running events. They don't win very many swimming events, or pure strength events though, both of which are measures of athleticism. I'd be interested to know where you got the 90% figure from.

Made it up. Close enough for me, read some studies for actual facts:

AFRICAN GENETIC DIVERSITY: Implications for Human Demographic History, Modern Human Origins, and Complex Disease Mapping

 

[yerrag]

Males in traditional Sudanese tribes (there are several, Masai are just the most well known) are on average well over 6ft tall. Dairy has been a staple for many generations.

I think height has a lot to do with reliably abundant calories, protein and calcium throughout infancy all the way to adulthood, for hundreds of years. Northern Europeans have probably been consistently consuming dairy for at least 8,000 years. Plenty of time to strongly influence both genetics and epigenetics to make use of high calcium and protein intake.

Other Northern traditional cultures such as the Sami and Inuit who don't have a very abundant calcium source tend to be much shorter.

Herbivores can also evolve to be freakishly huge when they live in climates with abundance of year round grasses that are very high in protein and calcium when grazed on all day.

I recall having read that fat is also needed for growth, being that oil-soluble vitamins - such as A D E K, need fat to enable transport to our cells. Milk and meat traditionally incorporates fats. Minimizing fat intake becomes a limiting factor in pushing for growth.

 

[yerrag]

Herbivores can also evolve to be freakishly huge when they live in climates with abundance of year round grasses that are very high in protein and calcium when grazed on all day.

I gather you are referring to sheep and cattle? In the tropics, there isn't that much grass for these animals to graze on. Beef and lamb have to be imported from temperate countries such as US, Australia, and New Zealand. The abundance of beef and lamb, because of fertile plains with grass, would this explain the height built upon generations of human development?