Unpopular Opinion: I Think Some Of Ray's Ideas Are Just Not Helpful And Actually Make Matters Worse

[SB4]

I am interested in the estradiol debate as I have heard decent arguments on both sides but I haven't looked into it much. I will say this though, just because estradiol is elevated in many disease does not mean it is causing negative effects. Perhaps the body is increasing it to combat the disease.

 

[Kartoffel]

So, everyone should aim for the lowest levels of something that is produced by the body? You don't think there's a healthy level of estradiol in the body?

Yes, I think low levels of estrogen are a sign of good health, and genereally everything that lowers estrogen and inhibits aromtase is a good thing. Things like estrogen and serotonin have important functions but I do believe the body's requirement is minimal when all other factors are right. Some data suggest that there might be such a thing as too little estradiol. For example, serum estradiol is usually much lower (while prolactin is much higher) in hypothyroid women, but I don't think that these values adequatley represent tissue levels, and the progesterone: estradiol levels is probably much lower in hypothyroid cases. Even less total estrogens can be much more destructive when they are not opposed by progesterone or testosterone.

 

[Goobz]

Its obviously very complicated, with differing effects between the sexes, dramatically different effects with different forms of supplementation. And the particularly complicated problem of measuring estrogens action in males, when its getting aromatised from circulating testosterone in the tissue, at the "last minute". Supplementation in males may lead to lower estrogenic activity overall.

But i think the examples of the aromatase inhibitors are very, very telling - those drugs inhibit estrogen and cause a laundry list of illnesses. SERMs also, perhaps to a lesser extent.

Look up Dr Dale Bredesen who has studied Alzheimers for decades - he is extremely fond of estradiol.

I really like RP and many of his ideas. But to be honest I find the anti estrogen idea that I see his proponents talk about so often, utterly mind boggling.

 

[somuch4food]

Yes, I think low levels of estrogen are a sign of good health, and genereally everything that lowers estrogen and inhibits aromtase is a good thing. Things like estrogen and serotonin have important functions but I do believe the body's requirement is minimal when all other factors are right. Some data suggest that there might be such a thing as too little estradiol. For example, serum estradiol is usually much lower (while prolactin is much higher) in hypothyroid women, but I don't think that these values adequatley represent tissue levels, and the progesterone: estradiol levels is probably much lower in hypothyroid cases. Even less total estrogens can be much more destructive when they are not opposed by progesterone or testosterone.

I like when you answer with thoughtful explanations. Your short answers are most of the time too drastic and I get triggered

 

[somuch4food]

I am interested in the estradiol debate as I have heard decent arguments on both sides but I haven't looked into it much. I will say this though, just because estradiol is elevated in many disease does not mean it is causing negative effects. Perhaps the body is increasing it to combat the disease.

That reminds me of cholesterol... This thread is turning into an estrogen debate. I will need to look into it more to come to my own conclusions.

 

[somuch4food]

Its obviously very complicated, with differing effects between the sexes, dramatically different effects with different forms of supplementation. And the particularly complicated problem of measuring estrogens action in males, when its getting aromatised from circulating testosterone in the tissue, at the "last minute". Supplementation in males may lead to lower estrogenic activity overall.

And in females, the variance during menstrual cycles, pregnancy, breastfeeding and menopause. That alone tells me it's not something we should aim to lower at all costs. It obviously plays a key role in biology.

 

[Kartoffel]

I like when you answer with thoughtful explanations. Your short answers are most of the time too drastic and I get triggered

Thanks, I'm sorry if my initial response was too harsh. I, too, sometimes get triggered by certain statements when I think they are unfounded and misleading. I will make sure to come up with a more elaborate rebuttal next time.

 

[lexis]

To start the "fixing metabolism" journey, get these toxic emotions off the chest ..grudges,hatred,vengeance emotions...etc

 

[michael94]

To start the "fixing metabolism" journey, get these toxic emotions off the chest ..grudges,hatred,vengeance emotions...etc

What’s the biggest grudge you’ve ever let go of

 

[postman]

To start the "fixing metabolism" journey, get these toxic emotions off the chest ..grudges,hatred,vengeance emotions...etc

Isn't that exactly what we are doing, by writing about it?

 

[schultz]

Ray's dietary advice is based largely upon availability, right? I wonder what he would eat, or tell other people to eat, if you could get anything in the world at the highest quality. Would it be based largely on weird tropical fruits? Just a curious thought...

 

[lexis]

What’s the biggest grudge you’ve ever let go of

Of a person I disliked. Doing sincere charity can help in this department

 

[sweetpeat]

I've thought about this quite a bit and I think part of the problem is the way Peat words things. He uses the word "can", as in "starch can cause endotoxin" when a better word would be "might": starch might cause endotoxin (in certain circumstances). People see the word "can" and take it to mean something is a certainty when it's really just a possibility to watch out for.

 

[nad]

That's my story, what I got and what to learn.
Postmenopausal, gained 60 pounds since meno. ,loaded w/PUFA, poor health, big bunch of problems, but wasn't too bad, started even to adapt, even losing some weight, start to sleep. TSH was 2.4 in 2006.
Taking care of myself w/vits., minerals, row sunflower(yummy!)oil, fish oil(!), salads, pounds of fruits and berry,raws, whole grains, flax seed, ton of nuts and seeds, roast under UV for vD, lots of water, only black coffee etc.
Oh, and ''labor therapy''! - When filling bad continue to work until getting better - the "second wind"! Adrenaline, but didn't know, was proud to find the solution!

Then found Peat! Reading a Lot! Oh my God!
But-Hurrah! I can fix, getting better easy!
Stop oils, take Coconut oil, no extra water, OJ, milk, low starches, some meat, some sea food, eggs, mushrooms, some butter, cheese, some Coke, more coffee w/milk, fruits, avoid unripe, some vegges fully cooked, bone broth, morning & evening sun, some red light, still some suppl. Mg, taurine, B vits., CoQ10, vE etc.
Nothing bad right?
But gaining more weight, (nobody can recognize me now!) apron, skirting like, saggy belly, eczema worse, failing hair, severe insomnia, arthritis worse, skin worse and brown spots a-all over with thick patches, some migraines return, constipated, cholesterol up to 315, temp. down, legs and nose always soo cold, anxiety return, liver enzymes up, WBC down, TSH up to 4.5. The worst is heart, from occasional arrhythmia & PVC, start getting it more and more often, every month, then few times, then every week, few times a week.
Why?! What am I doing wrong!?
The only better was not waking up shaking and clattering teeth in panic - sipping salted OJ was very helpful.
And 10 years in row flashing almost gone and changed for profusely sweating at very little effort, especially face - dripping sweat.
Ok, diet is not enough, probably time to introduce hormones.
Very slow start Ndt. Slow progesterone was big mistake! Add some aspirin, niacinaimide, Some Bs, K2, Mg glicinate, Ca, some
theanine, bag breathing, some carrot salad, liver, more thoroughly cooked mushrooms, gelatine, some pregnenolone, vit D
Worse! Only good things better temp. and pulse from 60 to 68, Tsh down to 3-2.6
Now feel extremely bad! My heart stops every day, every few seconds, sometimes for hours or for days. Am I still alive? Scary..
Non stop suffering.
Dropping almost everything to see.
But!
The only excuse for me - English is my second language. Some little things can get wrong. Like ''can'' and "might".
But the behavior,?! Stupidity, or character, or busy life, lack of understanding , lot of stress, everything together?
Just now after three years here I start to notice little things like ''IF''!
Almost every Ray's explanations came with ''if''.
Like Progesteroe works IF thyroid is good, thyroid works if liver is good etc, etc, etc.
And I...
Did you ever see the aged lady who stubbornly pull on some dress just b/c it looks nice on young girl?
Some finely notice mistake, some don't.
I was ''trying on'' everything, too busy to think, I'm not a scientists, feeling to bad to wait, to see the ''ifs''. Take this, Ray said so.
And he didn't!
He just gives information, food for thought, but we have a habit (and hope) to get the ''magic pill''.
Now, rereading, re listening, rethinking I see much more.
But damage was done.
I don't blame Ray.
Some things many times making me cry and losing hope, like brown spots not going off from vE & etanol,
after almost four years avoiding Pufas didn't see improvement, Progesterone or carrot salad didn't help with heart rhythm disturbing etc.
But he didn't see me personally, didn't say- it's for YOU. He didn't promise, his main words are - ''may'', ''can be'', ''probably'', ''should'', ''I think'', ''I knew people'', ''worked for me'' or rats etc.
So, still don't know what to do, but learn some lessons.Sooory so long .

 

[Braveheart]

Yep I'll start a new thread sometime soon!

Good

 

[danishispsychic]

Seems to me , that the best way to approach his ideas and research, is to read each and every one of his articles that you can get your hands on. Then, know your labs, temps, rates, DNA markers, and then do what makes sense to you. For a long time , I did not follow his advice on things, but I have to say that one by one , time and time again, he had proven himself correct when it comes to me. ( just my experience. ) Like I was a complete fail with Progesterone until I went back and read that the liver needs to be functioning ( mine was not, i was vegan ) and thyroid needs to be functioning ( mine was not, I was even RAW VEGAN omg ) and protein levels need to be high... ( my were lowwwww) so when I took Progesterone then it just turned me into a high cortisol monster. Now I am back on it and I take HIGH doses as needed since that is what my perma estrogen dominant body ( i was bottled fed on soy too! urgh ) requires. Also, I do have methylation issues MTHFR which I dont believe Ray really cares about ... ( but I do ) and I have O positive blood ( which I dont believe Ray cares about but I do ) so my humble opinions is that Dr Peat , for me has helped me the most out of all the people and methods I have researched. And... there IS no Dr Peat diet but we all know that. And.... when 3 poached eggs without butter or bacon eaten plain yesterday put me into a depressive funk like no other - ( I am coming out of it ) a lightbulb went off in my head ONCE AGAIN, siting something Dr Peat said about eggs and eating them plain , no fat or sugar. When after working on my gut bacteria and detoxing hard from all kinds of stuff , I was able to digest dairy and gluten again, just like he said. For me, it has taken YEARS of trail and error. Time and time again, over and over , I say to myself ... see? Dr Peat is right again. I am not a push over or a guru seeker, I can be sort of a b word and and not easily convinced. But I respect his work more than any one else so far. Liquid diet? That just shows that the person that posted this has not studied Dr Peats work at all really. Urgh.

 

[danishispsychic]

That's my story, what I got and what to learn.
Postmenopausal, gained 60 pounds since meno. ,loaded w/PUFA, poor health, big bunch of problems, but wasn't too bad, started even to adapt, even losing some weight, start to sleep. TSH was 2.4 in 2006.
Taking care of myself w/vits., minerals, row sunflower(yummy!)oil, fish oil(!), salads, pounds of fruits and berry,raws, whole grains, flax seed, ton of nuts and seeds, roast under UV for vD, lots of water, only black coffee etc.
Oh, and ''labor therapy''! - When filling bad continue to work until getting better - the "second wind"! Adrenaline, but didn't know, was proud to find the solution!

Then found Peat! Reading a Lot! Oh my God!
But-Hurrah! I can fix, getting better easy!
Stop oils, take Coconut oil, no extra water, OJ, milk, low starches, some meat, some sea food, eggs, mushrooms, some butter, cheese, some Coke, more coffee w/milk, fruits, avoid unripe, some vegges fully cooked, bone broth, morning & evening sun, some red light, still some suppl. Mg, taurine, B vits., CoQ10, vE etc.
Nothing bad right?
But gaining more weight, (nobody can recognize me now!) apron, skirting like, saggy belly, eczema worse, failing hair, severe insomnia, arthritis worse, skin worse and brown spots a-all over with thick patches, some migraines return, constipated, cholesterol up to 315, temp. down, legs and nose always soo cold, anxiety return, liver enzymes up, WBC down, TSH up to 4.5. The worst is heart, from occasional arrhythmia & PVC, start getting it more and more often, every month, then few times, then every week, few times a week.
Why?! What am I doing wrong!?
The only better was not waking up shaking and clattering teeth in panic - sipping salted OJ was very helpful.
And 10 years in row flashing almost gone and changed for profusely sweating at very little effort, especially face - dripping sweat.
Ok, diet is not enough, probably time to introduce hormones.
Very slow start Ndt. Slow progesterone was big mistake! Add some aspirin, niacinaimide, Some Bs, K2, Mg glicinate, Ca, some
theanine, bag breathing, some carrot salad, liver, more thoroughly cooked mushrooms, gelatine, some pregnenolone, vit D
Worse! Only good things better temp. and pulse from 60 to 68, Tsh down to 3-2.6
Now feel extremely bad! My heart stops every day, every few seconds, sometimes for hours or for days. Am I still alive? Scary..
Non stop suffering.
Dropping almost everything to see.
But!
The only excuse for me - English is my second language. Some little things can get wrong. Like ''can'' and "might".
But the behavior,?! Stupidity, or character, or busy life, lack of understanding , lot of stress, everything together?
Just now after three years here I start to notice little things like ''IF''!
Almost every Ray's explanations came with ''if''.
Like Progesteroe works IF thyroid is good, thyroid works if liver is good etc, etc, etc.
And I...
Did you ever see the aged lady who stubbornly pull on some dress just b/c it looks nice on young girl?
Some finely notice mistake, some don't.
I was ''trying on'' everything, too busy to think, I'm not a scientists, feeling to bad to wait, to see the ''ifs''. Take this, Ray said so.
And he didn't!
He just gives information, food for thought, but we have a habit (and hope) to get the ''magic pill''.
Now, rereading, re listening, rethinking I see much more.
But damage was done.
I don't blame Ray.
Some things many times making me cry and losing hope, like brown spots not going off from vE & etanol,
after almost four years avoiding Pufas didn't see improvement, Progesterone or carrot salad didn't help with heart rhythm disturbing etc.
But he didn't see me personally, didn't say- it's for YOU. He didn't promise, his main words are - ''may'', ''can be'', ''probably'', ''should'', ''I think'', ''I knew people'', ''worked for me'' or rats etc.
So, still don't know what to do, but learn some lessons.Sooory so long .

Well written. Not sure if my other post posted but it is close to my experience when I did not know the steps to take - and did not know my levels etc. It really takes a while and a lot of self experimentation and reading exactly what he writes. I was guilty of doing it all wrong because I rushed.

 

[Constatine]

No, I stated I specifically was referring to things which he either wrote about or said during an interview.

@Constatine

I'm specifically referring to these two ideas (starches, high liquids), though I bet there are more out there.

I think that the combination of these two specific ideas is almost never helpful to a person suffering from low thyroid symptoms. They just don't make sense in almost any context of low-thyroid.

That's just my two cents.

Sorry if it sounded like it but my statement was more general and not directed at you. I actually agree that a high liquid diet and completely avoiding starches (unless one has certain intestinal issues) can be problematic.

 

[TeaRex14]

Peat's ideas aren't accurately represented in many cases, therefore you have people spreading misinformation (assuming unintentionally). I think orthorexics will blame anyone but themselves. When they fail at a particular protocol, that Ray himself didn't even make, then blame Ray for it's failure, they're ust trying to find excuses to point the finger at anyone but themselves. The "Ray Peat diet" was made by random people compiling excerpts from KMUD interview (often taken out of context) to make a diet. Peatarian is dangerous, and Peat himself wouldn't recommend it.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I will disclose my bias - I was prescribed an aromatase inhibitor by an endo who didn't have a clue, and it basically ruined my life. Aged my appearance greatly, damaged my nervous system and vascular and skeletal system. Through years of health research almost ALL of my health problems can be traced to a lack of estrogen.

Lemme guess..... it was one of the 'Zole drugs? They do more than inhibit estrogen, they inhibit progesterone too. And maybe other steroids. Not good in any way.

Individuals taking aromatase inhibitors experience cognitive decline, increased neurological problems, osteoporosis and arthritis, cardiovascular and cerebrovascular disease, and more. W0men who lose their ovaries but don't supplement with estrogen have a more than double risk of alzheimers and dementia.

Many people, especially body builders, are ruining their health by blocking estrogen. It's a growing problem in the US. Google Dr Kominiarek talking about this, people coming in with osteoporosis and ruined metabolism and vascular function. All for what? An overly simplistic idea about it being only important for women.

Sure, if the AI is Letrozole. It crushes Progesterone. And reducing Progesterone ain't good. There is no proof whatsoever that the negative effects of Letrozole are in any way from lowering estrogen.