Trying to Understand Peat's View of Fat Burning

[SAFarmer]

My point was to courteously provide the part where Ray Peat has written that he regards insulin as the culprit in what are normally considered symptoms of diabetes, which is what you had asked.

Thats your interpretation about what he's written.

I am aware of that quote and my interpretation, together with many other literature, is different. That does not mean an excess of insulin could cause no harm, just that the effect of overcontrolled (too tightly) diabetics and insulin injected into non diabetic apes are bound to cause hypoglycemia. Hypoglycemia has far worse effects and " complications " .

 

[Such_Saturation]

My point was to courteously provide the part where Ray Peat has written that he regards insulin as the culprit in what are normally considered symptoms of diabetes, which is what you had asked.

Thats your interpretation about what he's written.

I am aware of that quote and my interpretation, together with many other literature, is different. That does not mean an excess of insulin could cause no harm, just that the effect of overcontrolled (too tightly) diabetics and insulin injected into non diabetic apes are bound to cause hypoglycemia. Hypoglycemia has far worse effects and " complications " .

I gave you my interpretation since your request for a fact can't be fulfilled.

Another one of my interpretations concerns the opinion of most scientists. They think hyperglycemia is the cause. Suikerbuik's post on the second page supports this.

 

[SAFarmer]

Another one of my interpretations concerns the opinion of most scientists. They think hyperglycemia is the cause. Suikerbuik's post on the second page supports this.

..and do you agree with "most scientists" ?

We already know that Ray Peat disagrees on this.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Another one of my interpretations concerns the opinion of most scientists. They think hyperglycemia is the cause. Suikerbuik's post on the second page supports this.

..and do you agree with "most scientists" ?

We already know that Ray Peat disagrees on this.

I think they are going too fast, and I would rather stay a little hyperglycemic rather than accept their insulin. Especially since they think diabetes is genetical and eternal.

 

[SAFarmer]

Another one of my interpretations concerns the opinion of most scientists. They think hyperglycemia is the cause. Suikerbuik's post on the second page supports this.

..and do you agree with "most scientists" ?

We already know that Ray Peat disagrees on this.

I think they are going too fast, and I would rather stay a little hyperglycemic rather than accept their insulin. Especially since they think diabetes is genetical and eternal.

Agreed, except in T1 diabetics where you have no choice, and need the insulin, not just to control blood sugar, but for all it's other uses as well. Insulin is very needed in the body, not just for BG control. My 1 son has T1DM, and we always try to err on the high side, rather than too low.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Another one of my interpretations concerns the opinion of most scientists. They think hyperglycemia is the cause. Suikerbuik's post on the second page supports this.

..and do you agree with "most scientists" ?

We already know that Ray Peat disagrees on this.

I think they are going too fast, and I would rather stay a little hyperglycemic rather than accept their insulin. Especially since they think diabetes is genetical and eternal.

Agreed, except in T1 diabetics where you have no choice, and need the insulin, not just to control blood sugar, but for all it's other uses as well. Insulin is very needed in the body, not just for BG control. My 1 son has T1DM, and we always try to err on the high side, rather than too low.

What is your opinion on the regenerative abilities of pancreatic cells?

 

[SAFarmer]

What is your opinion on the regenerative abilities of pancreatic cells?

I'd like to see evidence of that.

 

[Such_Saturation]

What is your opinion on the regenerative abilities of pancreatic cells?

I'd like to see evidence of that.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 131832.htm

Ray Peat claimed DHEA worked for rabbits.

 

[SAFarmer]

What is your opinion on the regenerative abilities of pancreatic cells?

I'd like to see evidence of that.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 131832.htm

Ray Peat claimed DHEA worked for rabbits.

The challenge for the researchers is now to show that these procedures can be applied to humans.

As I said, I'd like to see evidence for that, in humans ...

 

[Such_Saturation]

What is your opinion on the regenerative abilities of pancreatic cells?

I'd like to see evidence of that.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 131832.htm

Ray Peat claimed DHEA worked for rabbits.

The challenge for the researchers is now to show that these procedures can be applied to humans.

As I said, I'd like to see evidence for that, in humans ...

You gotta make your evidence, find the evidence! It is your own son and if he can't find Peat by himself, tell him.

 

[narouz]

What is your opinion on the regenerative abilities of pancreatic cells?

Not real in touch with the thread,
but FWIW
I was listening to the KMUD interview with Peat today
called Anti-oxidants.

A woman called in and asked, off topic, about diabetes.
Peat discussed alpha and beta cells in the pancreas,
and he discussed regeneration.

I'd take a stab at what he said,
but I'm a bit foggy on it and I'd probably blow it.

 

[pone]

You ask others for references without supplying your own when asked to support your ascertions?

You have to read most of Peat's work to see where he explains his ideas about the role of fat vs sugar . I don't think there is only one "summary" page.

Maybe I missed a message. Which assertion did I make that I was asked to supply a reference for?

Regarding the issue of whether fat is more efficient than glucose, I asked a *question* and the details behind that have been discussed by others in this thread.

 

[pone]

<<Free fatty acids suppress mitochondrial respiration (Kamikawa and Yamazaki, 1981), leading to increased glycolysis (producing lactic acid) to maintain cellular energy. The suppression of mitochondrial respiration increases the production of toxic free radicals, and the decreased carbon dioxide makes the proteins more susceptible to attack by free radicals. The lactate produced under the influence of excessive fat metabolism stimulates the release of endorphins, which are lipolytic, releasing more free fatty acids from the tissues. Acting through cytokines such as interleukin-6, lactate shifts the balance toward the catabolic hormones, leading to tissue wasting.

Lactic acid itself, and the longer chain fatty acids, inhibit the regulatory enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (which is activated by insulin), reducing the oxidative production of energy. Drugs to activate this enzyme are being studied by the pharmaceutical industry as treatments for diabetes and cancer (for example, DCA, dichloroacetate).>>

So how does one prevent the release of free fatty acids or minimize them in the blood during aerobic exercise? The bottom line is what do we do to avoid these problems?

Peat stresses the need to avoid PUFA and to embrace saturated fats, but of course those saturated fats will release free fatty acids as well, so I don't think that is a solution?

It occurs to me that what Peat is really objecting to is conditions where cortisol and stress hormones are too high. Because those will elevate the free fatty acid levels, upregulate glucose, etc. But I fail to see how eating saturated fat is going to address the conditions that cause stress hormones to go high.

 

[pone]

Which Peat article best summarizes these ideas?

And - the bottom line - what do we do to prevent all of this from happening? Surely he isn't saying eat sugar without any fat?

Enjoy your fat, but limit lipolysis. Peat is not about blocking beta-oxidation (fat oxidation) and it isn't supposed to be low fat, although some may do better on low fat.

You can find references in Peats articles. The functionalps site summarizes things pretty well too. And there's numerous articles on the web, pubmed for example.

Functional alps hosts this article that talks about factors that promote efficient metabolism:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... etabolism/

And this article contains a table that appears to say saturated fats improve metabolic efficiency:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/wp-con ... icient.png

To the extent that any fat will release fatty acids, and Peat seems to be objecting to high levels of free fatty acids, I don't see how Peat can be saying saturated fat is good. I understand relative to PUFA, saturated fats are superior (because of separate problems of PUFA), but once you take the position that free fatty acids are bad and interfere with glucose metabolism, that doesn't suggest any clear course of action about how much fat to eat, when to eat it, or how to lower free fatty acids so that they don't interfere with glucose metabolism.

 

[SAFarmer]

You ask others for references without supplying your own when asked to support your ascertions?

You have to read most of Peat's work to see where he explains his ideas about the role of fat vs sugar . I don't think there is only one "summary" page.

Maybe I missed a message. Which assertion did I make that I was asked to supply a reference for?

Regarding the issue of whether fat is more efficient than glucose, I asked a *question* and the details behind that have been discussed by others in this thread.

I asked you for reference to your statements made here, viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4124&start=20#p50244

I disagreed with you and think I have provided the calculations to prove my view.

But it seems now that I have confused you with pboy. Sorry.

 

[pboy]

I don't think peat is even huge on saturated fat, he uses it more like a tool...to prevent starch resorption by slowing its digestion, and to help trigger bile release and gut hormones...he says digestion is better when all macronutrients are present, but I never see him recommend eating a lot of fat, in fact he often says you can use skim milk and stuff like that if you want, and that being as close to coconut oil as your bodies fatty acid profile was the best. The idea is that the body, even when using mostly glucose, is still always using some fat in the background, and its better to have that be saturated as much as possible. If you get into a cortisol state, more fat gets released, and if its saturated it has no negative effect, its only supportive or beneficial in the sense it can provide extra energy when needed without impairing metabolic processes, like unsaturated fat can do. Im pretty sure he thinks if you were to just eat a lot of fat, even if it was saturated, youd probably start gaining weight and potentially slow down metabolism...if you eat enough fat at once like in a large meal or just on purpose for some reason even if its
saturated it can compete with glucose metabolism, and once you are sufficiently overweight you are almost always in a slightly glucose impaired fat favored metabolism. Im not sure if it was Peat I read this from, but im pretty sure it was something like what he said, that when in a healthy state even up to 40% of calories (or around that) could be from fat and youd pretty much use it all in a day while still mainly using sugar, of course excluding purposeful PUFA

 

[Such_Saturation]

Yes, true aerobic excercise doesn't really exist (perhaps walking) so any excercise WILL be a stress. In fact Ray Peat says that if your fat is mostly saturated, the RECOVERY will be very quick.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Another one of my interpretations concerns the opinion of most scientists. They think hyperglycemia is the cause. Suikerbuik's post on the second page supports this.

Well yeah, you said right "my interpretations". I'm not no scientist and I also said that excess insulin is not a good thing as seems high blood glucose. So rather both instead of one or the other.

For the right interpretations, when I'd be slightly hyperglycemic I wouldn't take insulin myself too. One of the reasons is that it seems to modulate the immune system. However insulin is important too, so FYI for those insulin dependant.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I was talking about the two papers that you posted