Tropical Region Vs Cancer Incidence Rate , World Map

milk_lover

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I am from the UAE. Although we eat PUFA, I think our main traditional meals contain too much saturated fat. I think that balances things a little. And yes we have a huge problem in vitamin D. Most of the population is deficient, men and women!
 

Nicole W.

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Everyone in Finland uses the sauna and everywhere, still the high incidence is seen only in the eastern part called Karelia. The only thing that is in fact different is the amount of grains and refined sugar used in diet with heavy fatty meat based foods and meager amount of fruits. The Karelians are also seen as more jovial than the rest of the finns they joke and laugh a lot.This should be a possitive factor.
 

dookie

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@Simba1992
@Nicole W.
@shepherdgirl

Finland also has some of the highest levels of cancer, depression, etc in the world. So, it appears it is not just diabetes that is a problem, and the health issues don't seem to be contained to a specific region in the country

Could it be the amount of fish eaten? Or those fatty pastries, are they made with vegetable oil?

How much dairy do they consume: do people cook with butter or eat a lot of cheese?
 

shepherdgirl

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Hi Simba,
Everyone in Finland uses the sauna and everywhere, still the high incidence is seen only in the eastern part called Karelia.
I am kind of confused! I saw the paper below comparing incidence of type 1 diabetes in Russian Karelia(which used to be part of Finland) with Finland - it did not specify a particular area of Finland as I interpret it, just Finland as a whole. There was a HUGE difference at the border just as you said:
The average annual age-adjusted incidence of type 1 diabetes was lower in Russian Karelia than in Finland: 7.4 per 100000 (95% confidence interval 3.5-11.3) versus 41.4 per 100000 (37.3-45.5)...
from
A six-fold gradient in the incidence of type 1 diabetes at the eastern border of Finland.
Kondrashova A, et al. Ann Med. 2005.
Also another paper i found looked at type 1 diabetes incidence in Finland, finding:
The incidence was the highest in the rural heartland areas while the increase in incidence was sharpest in urban areas.
from
The incidence of type 1 diabetes among children in Finland—rural–urban difference
M.Rytkönena and M.Karvonen,
Health & Place, Volume
9, Issue 4, December 2003, Pages 315-325


So just based on these two papers, to me it would not seem that the problem was concentrated in one area but was a problem for Finland as a whole. Do you happen to have some papers that talk about it being a more localized problem on the border?

As usual, it's just something in the water.
Well, ya, maybe. Stupid nanoparticles. But I don't really buy it. I don't know anything about Finland's geology, so maybe the particles they are talking about are specific to Finland. But Estonia is right across the Baltic. These particles are supposedly in the water. But (citing the 2013 indidence by country again) Finland's T1D incidence is 57.6 per 100,000. Estonia's is 17.1. Come on! And if it's a genetic problem, why is there a sixfold gradient in the incidence across a manmade border (i.e. no big geographical separation there), especially when that region used to be part of Finland? Why would the incidence be highest in the rural heartland if the problem was in the water? Wouldn't the coastal people be eating the most fish and having the greatest exposure to the water?
 

Nicole W.

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@Simba1992
@Nicole W.
@shepherdgirl

Finland also has some of the highest levels of cancer, depression, etc in the world. So, it appears it is not just diabetes that is a problem, and the health issues don't seem to be contained to a specific region in the country

Could it be the amount of fish eaten? Or those fatty pastries, are they made with vegetable oil?

How much dairy do they consume: do people cook with butter or eat a lot of cheese?
I just read an article on The Atlantic about the incidence of heart disease in the Karelia region of Finland- that has the highest incidence of diabetes also- and it sounds like their diet was fairly peaty except for the fact that there isn't much fruit available. Other than that it seems like the diet, at least historically, consisted of game, butter, dairy and root vegetables. Pastries are a big part of the diet as well consisting of rye/ wheat, butter, eggs and rice. The article made no mention of vegetable oil in the pastries, in fact it suggested that the butter was the problem. Seems like the pastries would be fairly innocuous especially if they are made with sourdough. According to the article, they successfully lowered the rate of disease in this region by lowering saturated fats and increasing consumption of root vegetables. The opposite of what you'd expect.
 

shepherdgirl

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Thanks for the synopsis of the Atlantic article, @Nicole W. I just skimmed through it and was disturbed to hear that they replaced butter with oil, and reduced heart attacks! Well, they changed many things in the diet/lifestyle, so maybe it was not the oil!
I found an interesting article tbat basically says Finns are so clean that it sets them up for health risks later. Also mentions endotoxin! I still like your idea about the sauna. Wouldn't regular sauna use kill off a lot of germs?
Why Do Finns Have a Higher Risk of Type 1 Than Russians?
 

Nicole W.

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Thanks for the synopsis of the Atlantic article, @Nicole W. I just skimmed through it and was disturbed to hear that they replaced butter with oil, and reduced heart attacks! Well, they changed many things in the diet/lifestyle, so maybe it was not the oil!
I found an interesting article tbat basically says Finns are so clean that it sets them up for health risks later. Also mentions endotoxin! I still like your idea about the sauna. Wouldn't regular sauna use kill off a lot of germs?
Why Do Finns Have a Higher Risk of Type 1 Than Russians?
I read the article and the thing that struck me was the contradiction of the Russian kids having demonstrably stronger immune systems and yet had lower life expectancies. Are their a lot of wild animal attacks there? Industrial accidents or rampant alcoholism? Because otherwise I would expect the population to be pretty robust considering their well developed immune systems and gut biome. Why wouldn't they be longer lived compared to their compromised Finnish counterparts?
Beyond that the other thought I had was this place in Finland seems quite insular. Maybe it's not the lack of biodiversity in their guts but human diversity. Certain conditions become amplified when there is a limited gene pool to draw on and it's just recycled over and over again. Since the prevailing theories about the cause of Diabetes 1 include a genetic one-- I'm thinking these people may be overbred, so to speak. I mean, it doesn't seem by the looks of the place that there is much of an influx of new people to freshen up the gene pool.

As far as Sauna goes and I believe this goes for hot baths as well... anytime you raise the body temp over 100 -- it's functionally a fever which is a good way to overcome bacteria/ viruses assuming it's for long enough. I've heard it said that lowering fevers with medication can be counterproductive for this reason as it disables the immune system's primary vehicle for dealing with these things. Still, the dehydration from Sauna would seem to increase blood sugar ( at least temporarily) so you'd think that would at least complicate matters for someone predisposed to diabetes in the first place. As another poster said, it's never just one thing but likely many.
 

x-ray peat

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Interestingly the overall life expectancy map is almost the exact opposite of the cancer map. Maybe they are not fully or properly adjusting the cancer incidence for age to get their map since cancer is so highly related to age. It seems just a bit too perfect of a match with just a few exceptions.

world-life-expectancy-map-.png


cancervstropics-jpg.5878
 

Nicole W.

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Interestingly the overall life expectancy map is almost the exact opposite of the cancer map. Maybe they are not fully or properly adjusting the cancer incidence for age to get their map since cancer is so highly related to age. It seems just a bit too perfect of a match with just a few exceptions.

View attachment 7492

cancervstropics-jpg.5878
I guess it might come down to access to medical care: we can keep people alive despite serious illness.
 

tankasnowgod

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Years ago I read a book called Survival of The Sickest by Dr. Sharon Maolem. The focus of the book is human disease seen through an evolutionary lens. His theories and arguments are pretty fascinating IMO.
In the chapter discussing the potential origin of diabetes, he pointed out that diabetes 1 is much more common in people who reside in cold weather places and the disease itself is more frequently diagnosed in the winter than any other time of year. Apparently Finland has the highest rate of diabetes 1 in the world.

His theory is that diabetes is actually an adaptation to cold weather arguing that sugar has anti-freeze properties and that a higher blood sugar level improves survival in frigid environments. Hilariously, he uses the analogy of ice wine in his argument. When grapevines experience an extended frost, the entire organism dumps water to prevent freezing of tissues. When this happens the sugar content of the grapes goes up, producing a very sweet wine. This is how the plant survives relatively unscathed. So could elevated blood sugar of these animals some how contribute to their longevity??? Just a thought.

I read the first chapter about Hemochromatosis, and it was clear he had NO idea what he was talking about. He had some quote in there talking about how, if you didn't have the genes for iron loading, you could "stuff yourself full of iron supplements" and not get iron overload.

Not only is that wrong in the long term, it can be dangerous in the short term. Small children die from eating as few as 10 iron pills. It's one of the most common causes of childhood poisoning.

I was not impressed, didn't bother reading the rest of the book.
 

Nicole W.

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I read the first chapter about Hemochromatosis, and it was clear he had NO idea what he was talking about. He had some quote in there talking about how, if you didn't have the genes for iron loading, you could "stuff yourself full of iron supplements" and not get iron overload.

Not only is that wrong in the long term, it can be dangerous in the short term. Small children die from eating as few as 10 iron pills. It's one of the most common causes of childhood poisoning.

I was not impressed, didn't bother reading the rest of the book.
Hmm, I don't remember that part as I read it years ago. All I remember about the first chapter is that he claimed that his grandfather or father's ( can't remember that either, lol! ) blood iron levels contributed to the Alzheimer's he developed late in life. That seemed perfectly plausible to me at the time. However, I'm sure he, or anyone else for that matter, isn't right about everything.
Most of the ideas we discuss here are theories and not definitive, because if they were there would be nothing to discuss.
As I said before, after reading the entire book, I thought the arguments he presented were provocative and worth reflection. I've actually ordered another copy of the book to look at again because I'd like to consider it in light of Ray's theories now that I'm aquatinted with them. Maybe I'll feel differently once I digest it a second time. I'll have to let you know. :):)
 

x-ray peat

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I guess it might come down to access to medical care: we can keep people alive despite serious illness.
I think the link between access to healthcare and longevity is pretty shaky and may even be inversely correlated. Death due to doctors is one of the leading causes of mortality.
 

shepherdgirl

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@Nicole W. @x-ray peat
I read the article and the thing that struck me was the contradiction of the Russian kids having demonstrably stronger immune systems and yet had lower life expectancies.
Yeah, and the article says they pay a high price to avoid diabetes - of stronger immunity? So shouldn't they be less susceptible to infections? Doesn't make sense.
Beyond that the other thought I had was this place in Finland seems quite insular.
Yeah, they're always doing genetic studies on the Finns because researchers regard them as genetically homogeneous. That is another factor to look at.
I don't necessarily buy the hygiene hypothesis as an explanation for the T1D discrepancy, but perhaps this "cleanliness" could be an indication that they may be taking a lot more saunas than their neighbors, even when compared to the formerly Finnish area of Russian Karelia.
BTW, call me stubborn but I still cannot find any refs that say that Finnish Karelia has a higher incidence of type 1 diabetes than the rest of the country, can anyone provide any?
Interestingly the overall life expectancy map is almost the exact opposite of the cancer map.
That is pretty amazing!
India and Mexico jump out as having pretty low cancer incidences but good life expectancy.
Very poor or war-torn countries can't really be compared to rich ones though - many people die for lack of antibiotics, injuries, etc. at a very young age, so nothing can really be said about their having low rates of diseases that usually strike older people.
 

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