Transitioning From ZC/PKD/Carnivore

[PhoenixPV]

Hello
I am new to Ray Peat / ProMetabolic and need some help with my labs and ensuring I am starting off correctly as well as some general feedback.

I'm 37 years old and have been sick most of my life. In my 20's I started with paleo/gluten free lifestyle after being diagnosed with Celiacs and a host of major issues including rectal prolapse and surgery, GERD, nodules on my vocal cords, depression, Domestic Violence and trauma.

I also was on birth control starting at 14 and then had Essure for 10 years which was finally removed via bilateral salpingectomy (tubal removal and partial uterus removal where the tubes connect) in Nov 2017. I still have both ovaries and most of my uterus and cervix.

At 33 I was diagnosed with Hashimotos and taken off all dairy and most sugar outside low carb greens and veggies and some starches. Been mostly grain free. Then last year with my labs getting worse and worse, my doctor referred me to Paleomedicina in Hungary to help with the Autoimmune and this summer I was put on a strict PKD/ high fat zero carb diet where for 90 days I was only allowed organ meats (1 Lb of Liver per week, 1/2 Lb of brain, plus under 5g of carbs only coming from 1 tsp of honey, and 350g of muscle meats from pork, beef, goat plus having to have 2:1 fat ratio with an average of 150-200g of fat to support ketones of 1.8-2.5 and BG must be kept less than 80 at all times). In August I tanked completely. I am 5'9" and dropped down to 128 lbs lost all muscle and all fat too and my hair which was already thin started to fall out even faster. I developed terrible dry eyes, sleep issues, panic attacks, and dawn syndrome with extremely low blood sugar and a tanked thyroid. I developed terrible GERD and gallbladder issues plus extreme muscle spasms all through my legs and my BP dropped down to 80/40 on multiple occasions. I stopped having a period for 57 days which they said was normal. My temp never went above 97 and my feet became super cold. My T3 dropped to 1.7 when I had my labs in May. They had taken me off all T3 replacement that I was on earlier in the year. I was eating A LOT of fat mostly from homemade pastured lard and beef tallow raw in huge chunks.

In August I just gave up and started back on my T3 - 15-20mg of Cyomel and began carb loading, My cravings were insane and I developed extreme orthoexia.

Unfortuantely going back on carbs my swelling and weight has ballooned (now back in the 150s and went from a size 4 to now a size 10-12 with lots of leg/hip/belly bloating) and I also added back in dairy using milk and cheese, OJ and fruit after starting to learn about Ray Peat from other PKD / low carb converts. I have NOT added in any grains or veggies outside those first couple weeks where I binged mostly on ice cream and gluten free pizza... I was starving.

I recently had my labs redone in the last two weeks (9.18.2020) non-fasting and AFTER taking T3 as they tested me in the afternoon at the doctors and here are my current numbers:
T4 Free: 0.7
T3 Free: 2.6
T3 Reverse: 6
Thyroglobulin Antibodies: 245 back up from 137 in May
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies: 3

TSH: 2.24
Ferritin: 49
Iron Total: 92
Iron Binding Capacity: 352
% Sat: 26

I was tested for homones too. I was on day #25 of a 30 day period cycle that did come back in August when I started binging on carbs. I do not believe I am ovulating and possible have never really ovulated due to Essure / the Tubal Removal... Need more testing here. I have the WORST PMS since really as long as I can remember. I've been using topical medical cannabis for YEARS to help with the pain management and spasms.

Testosterone: 33
DHEA Sulfate: 150
FSH: 3.0
LH: 1.3
Progesterone: 7.8
Estradiol: 88
PG/E2 Ratio: 88.64

My Cardio panel was absolutely terrible on PKD/Carnivore. The September testing was a little better but still showing high numbers:

Total Cholesterol: 236 down from 304 in May
HDL Cholesterol: 97 up from 79 in May
Triglycerides: 91 up from 73 in May
LDL-Cholesterol: 120 down from 207 in May
HDL-LDL Ratio: 2.4 down from 3.8 in May
HDL Large: 13074
LDL Small: 144
LDL Medium: 225
LDL Particle #: 1259
Apolipoprotein B: 90
Lipoprotein A: 14
HS CRP: 0.5 up from <.3 in May
LP PLA2 Activity: 109 down from 179 in May
Vitamin D,25-OH Total: 45 up from 29 in May

As with my current dosage of T3 this week I started switching to take 1/2 tablets of 5mg every couple of hours up to 25mg per day. I see my doctor tomorrow to see how she wants to adjust and refill my Cyomel. I tried NDT and WP Thyroid and they all make me have EXTREME anxiety and sweats and I can't handle them. I don't seem to convert the T4 to T3 at all and even though I've never gotten high Reverse T3 labs I get all the symptoms of conversion issues. I have NOT had this issue with T3 at all.

Def looking for support here and ideas from the group. I think my progestrone from essure and the tubal is seriously problematic and curious if with the surgery I should be taking progestrone?? I read from Ray Peat tho that that could create hyper issues? Again not sure what to do.

Right now I am trying to eat more but honestly after weeks of binging in August and back on T3 I never feel that hungry. I have to kind of force food and adding all the dairy and pure sugar through fruit and coffee with sugar back in has been strange.

Hoping to find some support. Thanks!

 

[animalcule]

I have no information or advice to give you, but I wonder if you could expand on your experience with Paleomedicina. When you were still struggling on the diet and experiencing negative symptoms, what was their response? Do you think that your experience, and consequently quitting the diet, was noted at their clinic?

I ask because I used to do the carnivore diet, experienced negative symptoms (gastroparesis, extreme irritability, nausea, etc) and quit. I went through a rebound phase of eating during which I gained 40 lbs. I’ve only lost 4 lbs of that. The typical response in the carnivore community is that I must have done the diet wrong. Since you were actually in communication with Paleomedicina, I’m curious to hear their reactions.

 

[PhoenixPV]

I have no information or advice to give you, but I wonder if you could expand on your experience with Paleomedicina. When you were still struggling on the diet and experiencing negative symptoms, what was their response? Do you think that your experience, and consequently quitting the diet, was noted at their clinic?

I ask because I used to do the carnivore diet, experienced negative symptoms (gastroparesis, extreme irritability, nausea, etc) and quit. I went through a rebound phase of eating during which I gained 40 lbs. I’ve only lost 4 lbs of that. The typical response in the carnivore community is that I must have done the diet wrong. Since you were actually in communication with Paleomedicina, I’m curious to hear their reactions.

I was in communication and every response I got back was "defaulted" to "eat less protein / eat less food". I ended up in the hospital and that was it for me. I stopped all communication after spending over $750.00 (still have unfinished tests). I created a private FB group because after I shared my experience I had about 20 people coming out and telling me how quack they were and how it helps the first 30 days but then all these weird symptoms like mine begin to show themselves and they never get true help or healing. The adherence rate to PDK is only about 1% and they have only been doing there "research" for 7 years. The background is cancer and epilpsy and so starving the body and slowing metabolic rate is what they consider the right approach. When I asked about why they said my 1.7 T3 was NORMAL and that my labs were perfect from the May review is that they believe the that slowing everything down is healing. They think having very low T3 is a great thing as when you use Ketones you dont need thyroid function. All the symptoms I was having was basically fat adaption including the extremely scary issues with muscle cramps, low blood pressure, extreme starvating feeling and mental obsession with food. It was TERRIBLE but I looked THIN. That seemed to the be their response that because I was soooo low body fat I couldn't be hypothryoid. But I felt the opposite. I had the WORST hypo feelings and then when they TOLD ME LOSING MY PERIOD WAS NORMAL!!! Again major red flag...Then I developed the HISTAMINE issues.. so did everyone else!
I have lost total trust in pretty much all medical institution and the LCHF groups in general. When I started my FB group I had sooo many women that now are hormonally broken and major issues with the cycles AND men that pretty much have no hair and no libido even tho they have what they consider normalize blood sugar.
Never again!

I am confident they just EXEMPT those that drop out and so they don't come up in their success groups. They also use bullying and silence techniques to make sure people don't complain. They will block people in their groups and they have some "apostles" that do their best to ensure they are never criticized or you are gaslighted. That is why I had to make the FB group private so people could have a SAFE place to talk through our issues.
I will not speak to them again. I am so angry. I went there to get healing and all I got was a terrible experience, a broken body and lost money!

 

[animalcule]

First of all, I am so very sorry that you went through that. Low carb/carnivore folks have an almost religious reverence for the diet and its 'healing' abilities. I'm kind of horrified to hear that an actual medical clinic could be so dismissive of negative reactions to their dietary advice, and so reckless with the health of the human beings who trust them as healers.

I also experienced histamine issues!!! I had no idea that this was a common thing, but it got to the point where I switched from beef to lamb because I thought it wasn't age as much and so hopefully it wouldn't affect me as badly. I was down to eating like one single cut of meat that didn't affect me. The money I wasted was insane, not to mention the toll it took on my health. I actually tried it in the hopes that it would help regulate my hormones because I was not having regular periods. It didn't help. A year after quitting the carnivore diet, I've had maybe two periods, total, whereas before I would have 4-6.

Even since I quit the diet I've tried to stay somewhat on the fence about it, because I figured, well, *maybe* it's helping some people? My major gripe has always been that criticism of the diet, even when based on actual experience, is always dismissed or silenced. This has got to stop. There are so many positive 'success' stories out there, and almost no one standing up (and being heard) saying "I did this diet and it failed. My health suffered."

What is the name of the facebook group? I would love to read some of their experiences.

Also, I started a subreddit called r/iquitcarnivore. I haven't yet posted my own experience (I've just been so busy), but I do plan on doing it ... the goal was to get as many people as possible to write about their experiences on the carnivore diet, and then try to direct some of the struggling zerocarbers to that subreddit to show them that carnivore is not the miracle diet they think it is. I'd love it if you were to post your story on that subreddit, or as the women on your facebook group to do so, if you're comfortable with that. I admit that I have not been active there at all, but I hope to change that soon.

Please keep us posted on your journey!! Coming off of carnivore was kind of hellish, as so many old foods caused reactions in me. I'm still not really in a great spot, but my appetite is somewhat reregulated and I'm not gaining any weight.

 

[Blossom]

I was in communication and every response I got back was "defaulted" to "eat less protein / eat less food". I ended up in the hospital and that was it for me. I stopped all communication after spending over $750.00 (still have unfinished tests). I created a private FB group because after I shared my experience I had about 20 people coming out and telling me how quack they were and how it helps the first 30 days but then all these weird symptoms like mine begin to show themselves and they never get true help or healing. The adherence rate to PDK is only about 1% and they have only been doing there "research" for 7 years. The background is cancer and epilpsy and so starving the body and slowing metabolic rate is what they consider the right approach. When I asked about why they said my 1.7 T3 was NORMAL and that my labs were perfect from the May review is that they believe the that slowing everything down is healing. They think having very low T3 is a great thing as when you use Ketones you dont need thyroid function. All the symptoms I was having was basically fat adaption including the extremely scary issues with muscle cramps, low blood pressure, extreme starvating feeling and mental obsession with food. It was TERRIBLE but I looked THIN. That seemed to the be their response that because I was soooo low body fat I couldn't be hypothryoid. But I felt the opposite. I had the WORST hypo feelings and then when they TOLD ME LOSING MY PERIOD WAS NORMAL!!! Again major red flag...Then I developed the HISTAMINE issues.. so did everyone else!
I have lost total trust in pretty much all medical institution and the LCHF groups in general. When I started my FB group I had sooo many women that now are hormonally broken and major issues with the cycles AND men that pretty much have no hair and no libido even tho they have what they consider normalize blood sugar.
Never again!

I am confident they just EXEMPT those that drop out and so they don't come up in their success groups. They also use bullying and silence techniques to make sure people don't complain. They will block people in their groups and they have some "apostles" that do their best to ensure they are never criticized or you are gaslighted. That is why I had to make the FB group private so people could have a SAFE place to talk through our issues.
I will not speak to them again. I am so angry. I went there to get healing and all I got was a terrible experience, a broken body and lost money!

I’ve heard really bad things about them recently and one comment was from a physician that advocates carnivore!!! I’m really sorry you had to go through that terrible experience.
When I transitioned from VLC Paleo to Peat/high carb back in 2013 I believe I went too fast. In hindsight I should have lowered fat gradually while slowly increasing carbs. I had a honeymoon period where things were going quite well but then I became convinced I was recovering from under eating and persisted longer than I should have eating far too many calories which wasn’t a Peat recommendation.
It may be different for you but I personally gained too much weight for my body to support and I eventually ended up with a whole new set of problems. I hope you get lots of support here.
I’d love to see us come up with a way females (and males if needed) can recover from the damage of zero/very low carb without having new issues develop. I’m currently trying to do what I should have done 7 years ago after learning from my own mistakes.

 

[yashi]

Yes, the paleomedicina people all also have huge bags under their eyes and don't look that healthy. On their subreddit you see the same advice parroted ad nauseum (something all the carnivore/zerocarb subs do btw, just with slightly different 'optimal' advice) regardless of the issues people are having. Anything from people failing on these diets will get deleted swiftly.

When coming from keto/carnivore it feels like the cells are used to fat burning ('adapted'), so it seems like the utilization of glucose is actually kinda lazy and there is a lot of insulin resistance. So I am experimenting with very low fat, low fructose and high glucose right now, to teach my body again to utilize glucose for energy and become insulin sensitive. I don't know if it is the correct strategy, but I feel like mixing fat and carbs made me really lethargic (probably because of the Randle Cycle and my cells in general still being more adapted to fat, and thus the fuel type that is less optimal to help raising metabolism), and fat and fructose right now make me gain unwanted body fat. Once I am better glucose adapted I am planning to add in more fructose and non-PUFA fat again. So basically kinda doing the opposite of keto-adaption right now, and it has been going good so far. Good energy levels and the rice, potatoes,lean meats, skim milk, non-fat yoghurt, gelatin, bone broth and a little bit of fruit juice satisfy all cravings right now (I still crave fructose/sucrose a little bit, but I think that's because it's easier for my body to take in, but right now I want to make it work a little bit to adapt to glucose intake,).

I got the idea from this Peat-inspired Youtuber Amplified Vitality:


Really not saying this is what is going to work for you, but maybe something you might want to look into when doing the transition. Going from keto into high carb, high fructose, moderate fat diet was pretty hard for my body to handle, as the insulin resistance, possibly sluggish liver to handle the fructose and the randle cycle competition between free fatty acids and glucose was too much too fast.

 

[Sertorius]

Could you please share the FB group? This is important, we need to spread the word.