Topical T3 Testicular Application - Estrogen!

[DaveFoster]

I've been taking topical pregnenolone and DHEA (Pansterone) dissolved in DMSO applied ot the testes (6 mg each daily), with good results.

I've just recently been taking progesterone dissolved in DMSO (Progestene) applied to the testes (2-5 mg daily) also with good results; it makes for a useful sleep aid.

I was doing the progesterone for about a week, and because it's cold I added in thyroid (TyroMix's T3:T4 ratio of 1:2). After application to the testes:

- 2 days 1 mcg T3, 2 mcg T4
- 2 days 3 mcg T3, 6 mcg T4
- 1 day 5 mcg T3, 10 mcg T4

I'm getting pronounced estrogen symptoms; it could also be to intestinal inflammation due to the cold. This includes itchy nipples, nausea, diarrhea, fatigue, insomnia, and a tendency toward migraine.

Progesterone helps alleviate the symptoms, as does bag breathing, but it came very sudden toward the end of the day with hypertension and tachycardia. I'm wondering if this is just a side effect of thyroid, or maybe the T4, or maybe even just the testicular application, which raised testosterone to aromatize into estrogen.

The estrogen flare-up coincided with a period of hyperthyroidism (too much T3 on my part, foolishly.) My heart rate was 103 with 147/60 blood pressure. I'd think this would have caused the estrogen increase in response.

Any thoughts?

 

[milk_lover]

I've applied T3 only (haidut's T3 product) on the testes and I didn't see any apparent adverse reaction. Have you tried it?

 

[DaveFoster]

I've applied T3 only (haidut's T3 product) on the testes and I didn't see any apparent adverse reaction. Have you tried it?

Hmm, I have not. Maybe T4 is responsible, but my gut tells me it's just too high a dose, as I did not get the estrogenic effect before I upped my dose. My pulse is 92 right now, and it was around 100.

@haidut Do you think T4 could exert an estrogenic effect on the testes similar to how Ray says it can lower respiration (6% in brain tissue IIRC)?

 

[schultz]

I've been taking topical pregnenolone and DHEA (Pansterone) dissolved in DMSO applied ot the testes (6 mg each daily), with good results.

I've just recently been taking progesterone dissolved in DMSO (Progestene) applied to the testes (2-5 mg daily) also with good results; it makes for a useful sleep aid.

I was doing the progesterone for about a week, and because it's cold I added in thyroid (TyroMix's T3:T4 ratio of 1:2). After application to the testes:

- 2 days 1 mcg T3, 2 mcg T4
- 2 days 3 mcg T3, 6 mcg T4
- 1 day 5 mcg T3, 10 mcg T4

I'm getting pronounced estrogen symptoms; it could also be to intestinal inflammation due to the cold. This includes itchy nipples, nausea, diarrhea, fatigue, insomnia, and a tendency toward migraine.

Progesterone helps alleviate the symptoms, as does bag breathing, but it came very sudden toward the end of the day with hypertension and tachycardia. I'm wondering if this is just a side effect of thyroid, or maybe the T4, or maybe even just the testicular application, which raised testosterone to aromatize into estrogen.

Any thoughts?

My guess would be the DHEA since it is an estrogen precursor. The ability of the testis to turn DHEA into androstenedione is higher than its ability to turn androstenedione into testosterone. Combine that with the idea that the testis have a relatively low level of 5a-reductase and it seems as though some of that androstenedione will easily be turned to estrogen. It is my opinion that the more you apply at once the easier this unwanted conversion to estrogen will happen.

Edit: Feel free to correct me people, as I am an endocrine newb

 

[DaveFoster]

My guess would be the DHEA since it is an estrogen precursor. The ability of the testis to turn DHEA into androstenedione is higher than its ability to turn androstenedione into testosterone. Combine that with the idea that the testis have a relatively low level of 5a-reductase and it seems as though some of that androstenedione will easily be turned to estrogen. It is my opinion that the more you apply at once the easier this unwanted conversion to estrogen will happen.

I did apply 2 extra drops of Pansterone today (I think.) I don't have issues with estrogen besides, though. (I've taken DHEA for months, and no estrogen symptoms, quite the opposite.)

 

[superhuman]

Why use t3 topical or on testies vs oral?

 

[DaveFoster]

Why use t3 topical or on testies vs oral?

Haidut says it triggers steroidogenesis. Makes your peepee bigger, maybe.

 

[superhuman]

Haidut says it triggers steroidogenesis. Makes your peepee bigger, maybe.

Really? With t3 on testies? Quote where?

 

[DaveFoster]

Really? With t3 on testies? Quote where?

I added that last part; it should trigger steroidogenesis. It's in the TyroMix thread I believe.

 

[Koveras]

I did apply 2 extra drops of Pansterone today (I think.) I don't have issues with estrogen besides, though. (I've taken DHEA for months, and no estrogen symptoms, quite the opposite.)

Increased SHBG from thyroid which preferentially binds testosterone over estrogen > decreased ratio of "free" testosterone to estrogen > estrogenic symptoms?

 

[Lightbringer]

Why use t3 topical or on testies vs oral?

Exactly ! I don't get this current testicular focus.

 

[DaveFoster]

Increased SHBG from thyroid which preferentially binds testosterone over estrogen > decreased ratio of "free" testosterone to estrogen > estrogenic symptoms?

Indeed; maybe a larger amount of T4 is needed. *sigh* Time to get more labs.

 

[Iambecomedeath]

wow very helpful thanks.

 

[haidut]

I added that last part; it should trigger steroidogenesis. It's in the TyroMix thread I believe.

Here is some info for the doubters of the thyroid/gonad connection. Thyroid hormone is so important for Leydig function that the studies below suggests hypogonadism can probably be treated with topical application of T3 to the scrotum and making sure there is enough cholesterol in the blood. The Pansterone + Kuinone to the scrotum is a decent option for the people who do not want to mess with thyroid hormone, but T3 can actually greatly increase steroidogenesis even on its own. So, maybe it is worth comparing several options. Pansterone + Kuinone for the timid, Pansterone + Kuinone + androsterone for the ones who want thyroid stimulation and estrogen blocking but do not want to mess with T3, Pansterone + Kuinone + T3 for the brave, and T3 only for those who have used thyroid but do not want to add other steroids.
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/edrv-16-4-443
Leydig cells, thyroid hormones and steroidogenesis. - PubMed - NCBI
http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/23265/1/IJEB 43(11) 939-962.pdf
"...Leydig cells are the primary source of androgens in the mammalian testis. It is established that the luteinizing hormone (LH) produced by the anterior pituitary is required to maintain the structure and function of the Leydig cells in the postnatal testis. Until recent years, a role by the thyroid hormones on Leydig cells was not documented. It is evident now that thyroid hormones perform many functiona in Leydig cells. For the process of postnatal Leydig cell differentiation, thyroid hormones are crucial. Thyroid hormones acutely stimulate Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Thyroid hormones cause proliferation of the cytoplasmic organelle peroxisome and stimulate the production of steroidogeic acute regulatory protein (StAR) and StAR mRNA in Leydig cells; both peroxisomes and StAR are linked with the transport of cholesterol, the obligatory intermediate in steroid hormone biosynthesis, into mitochondria."

Effects of thyroid hormones on Leydig cells in the postnatal testis. - PubMed - NCBI
"...The mechanism of action of TH on Leydig cell differentiation is still not clear and needs to be determined in future studies. However, some information on the mechanisms of TH action on Leydig cell steroidogenesis is available. TH acutely stimulate testosterone production by the Leydig cells in vitro via stimulating the production of steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR) and StAR mRNA in Leydig cells; StAR is associated with intracellular trafficking of cholesterol into the mitochondria during steroid hormone synthesis. However, the presence and/or the types of TH receptors in Leydig cells and other cell types of the Leydig cell lineage is still to be resolved. Additionally, it has been shown that thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH), TRH receptor and TRH mRNA in the testis in many mammalian species are seen exclusively in Leydig cells. Although the significance of the latter observations are yet to be determined, these findings prompt whether hypothalamo-pituitary-thyroid axis and hypothalamo-pituitary-testis axis are short-looped through Leydig cells."

Effects of thyroid hormone on Leydig cell regeneration in the adult rat following ethane dimethane sulphonate treatment. - PubMed - NCBI
"...The Leydig cell (LC) number per testis in hyperthyroid rats was twice as those of controls at Day 21. 3beta-Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (LC marker) immunocytochemistry results agreed with these findings. Mesenchymal cell number per testis was similar in the three treatment groups of thyroid-intact rats on Days 2 and 7, but it was different on Days 14 and 21. The highest number was in the hypothyroid rats, and the lowest was in the hyperthyroid rats. Serum testosterone levels could be measured in control rats only on Day 21, were undetectable in hypothyroid rats at all stages, and were detected in hyperthyroid rats on Days 14 and 21. These levels in hyperthyroid rats were twofold greater than those of controls on Day 21. Serum androstenedione levels could be measured only in the hyperthyroid rats on Day 21. Testosterone and androstenedione levels in the incubation media showed similar patterns to those in serum, but with larger values. These findings indicate that hypothyroidism inhibits LC regeneration and hyperthyroidism results in accelerated differentiation of more mesenchymal cells into LC following the EDS treatment. The observations of the EDS-treated, thyroidectomized rats confirmed that the findings in hypothyroid rats were, indeed, due to the deficiency of thyroid hormone.

 

[haidut]

Exactly ! I don't get this current testicular focus.

See my response to @DaveFoster. Thyroid hormone, when applied to the scrotum, can be used in much lower doses and probably treat hypogonadism if enough cholesterol is available or if the person is willing to try pregnenolone/DHEA.

 

[haidut]

Indeed; maybe a larger amount of T4 is needed. *sigh* Time to get more labs.

I would try some androsterone together with the Pansterone. It should block the estrogenic effects.

 

[DaveFoster]

I would try some androsterone together with the Pansterone. It should block the estrogenic effects.

Or for the stupid: Pansterone, Kuinone, T3, and androsterone. HOOAH.

Will try: getting labs soon.

 

[superhuman]

@haidut thats great. Do you think 1 drop of your t3 tyroene which is 8mcg is to much on scrotum at once? or is it ok? such hassle to dilute it if i want to use it on scrotum.

 

[haidut]

@haidut thats great. Do you think 1 drop of your t3 tyroene which is 8mcg is to much on scrotum at once? or is it ok? such hassle to dilute it if i want to use it on scrotum.

You can try one dose, I don't think it would fry the gonads. If you feel it is too much you can add T3 drops in the Pansterone mix to make it so that each dose of Pansterone has the steroids and a few mcg of T3.

 

[haidut]

Increased SHBG from thyroid which preferentially binds testosterone over estrogen > decreased ratio of "free" testosterone to estrogen > estrogenic symptoms?

If there is enough vitamin K or androsterone used with the Pansterone then the estrogen synthesis should drop noticeably. Adding T3 or using it instead of androsterone may also help as T3 is a bona fide aromatase inhibitor.