Topical Dutasteride = no systemic absorbtion??

[Pablo Cruise]

Oh, I am in the "business" but I studied making the products for a number of months. Can get very technical but liposomal products can be made at home. You can go to these websites that sell formulator products and they usually have advice. My advice is based on actual studies of the use of a product. Their advice is how to make something. A little different but some very knowledgeable people there.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I am not convinced of Haiduts theories, and am sceptic of him overall. He acts like MPMD having an agenda selling his supplements - and unfortuneately doesnt even show great health himself.

If you want to be skeptical of Haidut, fine...... but why don't you have that same skepticism of Glaxo? And the other multi billion dollar pharmaceutical companies?

GSK Korea reports successful sales of Avodart in Japan

GlaxoSmithKline Korea said Tuesday it has taken over the largest market share in Japan with its male hair loss treatment Avodart (dutasteride). The news comes on the heels of JW Pharma announcing successful development of a dutasteride tablet generic Monday. According to GSK Korea, Avodart took...

www.koreabiomed.com

"As annual Avodart sales have been growing at double digits since its launch in Korea, we will use this opportunity to provide good treatment solutions for patients with male hair loss in the country,” said GSK Korea’s Park Hye-ryun from the department of marketing.

Despite the strong sales of Avodart in Japan, companies in the hair loss therapy market in Korea are witnessing an influx of generics developed by domestic pharmaceutical firms after Avodart went off patent last year.

Korean firms such as Dongkook Pharm, Hyundai Pharm, Hanmi, Daewoong, JW Shinyak, Tai Guk Pharm, and Dong-A ST are all in the race for developing generics.

The global market for dutasteride was around 1 trillion won ($930 million) last year, according to IMS Health.

So Glaxo is just selling dutasteride out of the goodness of their heart? The almost 1 Billion dollar a year global market isn't a factor at all?

Applying the same logic, why would you buy a hairloss drug from a company whose executives sport these hairlines?

Corporate Executive Team | GSK

The Corporate Executive Team manages our activities, and each member is responsible for a specific part of the business

www.gsk.com

Anyways, I just threw in one study that Haidut referenced (not conducted, mind you) at the end. That still doesn't take away from everything else I stated.... that baldness is basically a minor problem, all 5AR inhibitors are highly dangerous, that topical contact will lead to systemic absorption (as is even stated in the Avodart commercial), and that Peat does not think endogenous DHT is a problem, and that Peat himself stated it's anti-inflammatory.

 

[Pablo Cruise]

At Tank, none or minimal absorption of liposomal formulations.....the pharmaceutical and cosmetic world is well aware of the benefits of liposomal formulations. Check it out.

 

[tankasnowgod]

At Tank, none or minimal absorption of liposomal formulations.....the pharmaceutical and cosmetic world is well aware of the benefits of liposomal formulations. Check it out.

What's the basis for this claim?

 

[Pablo Cruise]

Study the literature like I did. There are numerous studies that applied liposomal products like Finasteride with measured blood levels. Notice many pharmaceutical companies going to liposomes and niosomes.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Study the literature like I did. There are numerous studies that applied liposomal products like Finasteride with measured blood levels. Notice many pharmaceutical companies going to liposomes and niosomes.

I always think responses like this are a cop out. "Please, find the evidence for my point."

Mostly, I was just wondering what kind of testing was done. Was it a single topical application that then tried to measure dutasteride in the blood stream or urine? Was it a longer term study lasting a few weeks or months? Did they do any long term follow up? Personally, I would have a very high standard for safety in this situation, seeing as baldness is basically a cosmetic problem, and all the 5AR inhibitors carry a very high danger potential.

Especially when there are cheaper and much safer potential treatments out there, including aspirin, progesterone, thyroid, and red light. Even if they don't work for something relatively minor like hair loss or hair regrowth, they are still going to be beneficial to the organism in general, and carry only minor side effects, at worst.

 

[Sweet Meat]

Personally, I would have a very high standard for safety in this situation, seeing as baldness is basically a cosmetic problem, and all the 5AR inhibitors carry a very high danger potential.

Especially when there are cheaper and much safer potential treatments out there, including aspirin, progesterone, thyroid, and red light. Even if they don't work for something relatively minor like hair loss or hair regrowth, they are still going to be beneficial to the organism in general, and carry only minor side effects, at worst.

again, hair loss is one of the greatest predictors for cardiac and prostate problems.

i don't know why you feel compelled to constantly repeat how little of a problem you believe it to be... personally, it seems passive aggressive and remarkably condescending, given your audience. but hey, different strokes.

 

[MattFord]

If you want to be skeptical of Haidut, fine...... but why don't you have that same skepticism of Glaxo? And the other multi billion dollar pharmaceutical companies?

GSK Korea reports successful sales of Avodart in Japan

GlaxoSmithKline Korea said Tuesday it has taken over the largest market share in Japan with its male hair loss treatment Avodart (dutasteride). The news comes on the heels of JW Pharma announcing successful development of a dutasteride tablet generic Monday. According to GSK Korea, Avodart took...

www.koreabiomed.com

So Glaxo is just selling dutasteride out of the goodness of their heart? The almost 1 Billion dollar a year global market isn't a factor at all?

Applying the same logic, why would you buy a hairloss drug from a company whose executives sport these hairlines?

Corporate Executive Team | GSK

The Corporate Executive Team manages our activities, and each member is responsible for a specific part of the business

www.gsk.com

Anyways, I just threw in one study that Haidut referenced (not conducted, mind you) at the end. That still doesn't take away from everything else I stated.... that baldness is basically a minor problem, all 5AR inhibitors are highly dangerous, that topical contact will lead to systemic absorption (as is even stated in the Avodart commercial), and that Peat does not think endogenous DHT is a problem, and that Peat himself stated it's anti-inflammatory.

I would never take oral dutasteride.

What I am exploring is a way for the drug to act locally.

https://smj.journals.ekb.eg/article_42083_24b61cbba4be9982db23c318414034c0.pdf

I dont want to argue with you. Just get peoples opinion on this delivery system.
Baldness is a symptom of something severe going on, its not just cosmetic.

 

[Charger]

It goes systemic.

 

[Pablo Cruise]

Cop out, lol. Look, I cannot send, I cannot post many studies that advocate the use, that have tested liposomal products. I would think and do appreciate your interest but simly do a search. "liposomal finasteride" I am sure you will find a number of studies.

IMHO the use of enzyme blocker like 5A reductase inhibitors if my memory serves me well are not as harmful as some suggest. I do understand some can have adverse effects but as a whole they are safe. There are products that help hairloss but to my knowledge a multi faceted approach is best. I have seen no evidence that ASA or progesterone work. Red light yes. I have seen amazing results, ie, me, with Finasteride. If Finasteride does not work for you then Dutasteride is an option.

There is a lot of mumbo jumbo out there, eat this, take arm pit temperature, onion juice, castor oil but who knows if any of that works. Red light yes. 5AR inhib yes. Minoxidil, yes. Sorry everything else is very scantily evidenced. I have looked at hairloss for a very long time. There is always a new finding. Chinese herbs or RU but none ever pans out. If i was younger and losing my hair I would be on Minox, liposomal Fin and red light treatment. They work. Minoxidil however only some but again as a multifaceted approach I would use with the other I mention. Progesterone? Do you have any references I can follow up on?

 

[Pablo Cruise]

Thanks for the reference. I skimmed the study and their outcome was no statistical difference. My comment is they use pure Dutasteride not a liposomal formulation that has 5 times greater permeation. Having said that, I have seen numerous statements that Dutasteride orally works extremely well. One man said it took a few months but he has been on it for ten years! Dutasteride has a very long half life, about a week I believe. Finasteride is several hours so maybe topical Dut does not work well but I think a better vehicle for the drug would be appropriate in the study referred to.

 

[tankasnowgod]

What I am exploring is a way for the drug to act locally.

Baldness is a symptom of something severe going on, its not just cosmetic.

So, you want to take a very dangerous drug to act locally to treat a cosmetic problem, but, at the same time, think baldness is also a sign of something severe going on? Doesn't "something severe" suggest a systemic problem?

There is almost a disconnect between these two thoughts.

I do tend to agree that baldness itself may indeed be an indicator of a more serious problem. But doing something like throwing on a wig or doing hair transplants would only change the cosmetic portion of the problem. I see topical dutasteride as a more dangerous version of those two options. It would do nothing to correct any systemic problems, and treat any underlying issues.

I still think it's bizarre that you joined the "Ray Peat Forum" to exclusively explore taking a medication (even topically) that Peat himself would be exclusively against. There are plenty of hair loss forums that promote the use of finasteride and dutasteride, why not go there instead?

 

[MattFord]

So, you want to take a very dangerous drug to act locally to treat a cosmetic problem, but, at the same time, think baldness is also a sign of something severe going on? Doesn't "something severe" suggest a systemic problem?

There is almost a disconnect between these two thoughts.

I do tend to agree that baldness itself may indeed be an indicator of a more serious problem. But doing something like throwing on a wig or doing hair transplants would only change the cosmetic portion of the problem. I see topical dutasteride as a more dangerous version of those two options. It would do nothing to correct any systemic problems, and treat any underlying issues.

I still think it's bizarre that you joined the "Ray Peat Forum" to exclusively explore taking a medication (even topically) that Peat himself would be exclusively against. There are plenty of hair loss forums that promote the use of finasteride and dutasteride, why not go there instead?

I agree with you, topical dutasteride is not the optimal solution. But i do care about my hair and having a real hard time controlling the situation and want to save what I have left before sufficient fibrosis have accumulated and reversal will be much harder, a dht reducer does this, pauses the progression. If it would act only locally this would be much safer than taking an oral pill.

I have been a lurker for a while and find the people opinion here much more valuable than hairlosstalk users. I have tried the natural route, but I am having no success as many here. Topical dut is not plan A.
But its something I wanted to discuss here.

If you have no valueable input than to critisize my reasons for this post. Please spend your time elsewhere as you are acting like a hairlossforum user.

 

[tankasnowgod]

https://smj.journals.ekb.eg/article_42083_24b61cbba4be9982db23c318414034c0.pdf

So, I'd say the study is concerning, and certainly shows the effects of systemic absorption. Group 1 was only 15 men. They did 13 treatments, over 24 weeks (almost 6 months).

Mean DHT dropped in that time from 381 to 359, but median DHT dropped from 399 to 299. The median drop is a 25% decrease in less than half a year. They don't report any long term follow up, so who knows how long the decline of DHT continues.

 

[Pablo Cruise]

Like I said...........they did NOT use a liposomal base for the study and of course there is going to be systemic absorption. So less effectiveness and more absorption. A poor study.

 

[MattFord]

Studies and anecdotes prove otherwise. Is this just your assumption?

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Increase your boron intake and maybe add topical glutathione. Forget about -steride's.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Oh, I am in the "business" but I studied making the products for a number of months. Can get very technical but liposomal products can be made at home. You can go to these websites that sell formulator products and they usually have advice. My advice is based on actual studies of the use of a product. Their advice is how to make something. A little different but some very knowledgeable people there.

I have made liposomes, to be more precise, ethosomes at home and everything that I ever put inside of them has gone systemic (similar side effects as a simple ethanolic vehicle). Perhaps even more so since it allows more efficient permeation of the drug across the skin, but doesn't do much for actual drug retention, with the possible exception of charged liposomes which would be difficult to make at home.

The Brotzu lotion used charged liposomes and people still had anti-DHT side effects if they used a high enough dose. There is no magic topical vehicle which offers 100% local retention.

 

[MattFord]

I have made liposomes, to be more precise, ethosomes at home and everything that I ever put inside of them has gone systemic (similar side effects as a simple ethanolic vehicle). Perhaps even more so since it allows more efficient permeation of the drug across the skin, but doesn't do much for actual drug retention, with the possible exception of charged liposomes which would be difficult to make at home.

The Brotzu lotion used charged liposomes and people still had anti-DHT side effects if they used a high enough dose. There is no magic topical vehicle which offers 100% local retention.

Overcoming barriers by local drug delivery with liposomes

Localized or topical administration of drugs may be considered as a potential approach for overcoming the problems caused by the various biological ba…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[MattFord]

Topical dut 2020 vitro study

In Vitro Performance of Dutasteride-Nanostructured Lipid Carriers Coated with Lauric Acid-Chitosan Oligomer for Dermal Delivery

Dutasteride, licensed as an oral medicine for the treatment of benign prostatic hypoplasia, has been investigated as a treatment for androgenic alopecia. In this study, the potential for dustasteride to be delivered topically in order to reduce systemic exposure, irritation of the skin, and also...

www.mdpi.com

topical dut patent

WO2019012353A1 - Topical compositions of dutasteride - Google Patents

The present invention relates to a composition for topical application for preventing hair loss, androgenic alopecia (AA) and stimulating hair growth having dutasteride. The composition for topical application for preventing hair loss and stimulating hair growth according to the present...

patents.google.com

The present invention has been made to solve the above problems of the prior art, and an object of the present inv ention is to provide a composition of dutasteride for topical application for preventing hair loss and stimulating hair growth, which has the following advantages

1. It provides the effects of preventing hair loss and stimulating hair growth that are equal to or higher than that of conventional treatment agents (oral dutasteride & finasteride) even though the amount of dutasteride used is less than one half, more preferably less than two fifth that of the conventional treatment agents (oral dutasteride and finasteride).

2. There are almost no systemic side effects of the conventional treatment agents (oral dutasteride and finasteride).

3. It is possible to effectively prevent hair loss from the beginning of the treatment due to a rapid onset of the effect; and

4. It provides almost 100% effect to patients with hair loss, unlike the conventional prescription (oral dutasteride and finasteride) that provides about 70% effect. OBJECTS OF THE INVENTION

The object of the present invention is to provide a composition for topical application for preventing hair loss and stimulating hair growth, containing dutasteride or a pharmaceutically acceptable salt thereof.”