Topical Dutasteride = no systemic absorbtion??

MattFord

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Mar 4, 2021
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Hello guys!

So I suffer from severe scalp inflammation after stopping finasteride and losing hair fast. I think it is relates to my gut and have started to use charcoal and keeping the gut clean. Eating low FODMAP easily digestible carbs while being nutrient replete with chicken liver/heart. Also using the carrot salad. But I am not able to stop the dry scalp and itching.. only with long scalp massages and cortizone (betnovate) it goes away temporarily. (Tried ZIX and essential oils aswell). But it always comes back!

DHT arrives when there is inflammation so I am sure limiting DHT would be beneficial to my problems. I am not willing to risk systemic absorbtion, or atleast keep it to a minimum. There is a new trend of topical dutasteride and several people have posted blood tests before and after of serum DHT decreasing max 10% after application of this powerful 5ar inhibitor topically. Dose 0.02%-0.05% preferably in a liposomal vehicle seems to keep the DHT nuked only in the galea. Some people have already seen results in a discord group. (Cant link since I am a new member)
Search for More plates more dates on youtube: topical dutasteride)

Anyone with an opinion on this?


"The idea behind topical dutasteride has to do with the chemical properties compared to finasteride. At the molecular level, dutasteride is more difficult to deliver as a topical agent to be absorbed through the skin due to the size of dutasteride molecules. They are larger than those of finasteride. This difficulty however becomes an advantage as the difficulty to get past the subcutaneous layer may prevent systemic absorption. The molecular size prevents deep penetration. In addition, dutasteride has a high lipophilicity of 4.94, compared to 3.03 of finasteride, which means it is less water soluble than finasteride or more “greasy”. This higher lipophilicity can in theory help dutasteride to remain in the skin longer as these properties tend to preclude the paracellular and follicular routes of ingress into the skin."
 

cupofcoffee

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Jul 31, 2020
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391
don't touch 5AR inhibitors, it's not worth the risk.

Try the usual anti-inflammatory stuff, pro-thyroid diet while reducing estrogen and prolactin. If you're desperate enough try progesterone and if that doesn't work just accept the fact that you're gonna be bald.

i like MPMD but he's so damn insecure about his hair loss and recommends a lot of ***t (i.e. 5AR inhibitors, isotretinoin for skin health etc.)
 

Jayvee

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I beg you not to touch Dutasteride!!!! There are many more ways of achieving what you want without touching that poison. From an ex-duasteride user... TRUST ME.
 

BrianF

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Mar 25, 2016
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617
Mae sure you increase vitamin a through liver which will regulate the sebum production and also apply an anti-fungal to your scalp, John Wester done some good research on this and i used philip kingsley scalp tonic on his advice which is effective. You can also use vinegar or vinegar with baking soda as an antifungal topical. Both work well. Should calm diwn the itch by killing the fungi feeding off your sebum. Sorru for not providing links but im on my phone. There are some great threads with good links to other sources on here. John has been quite diligent in his research.
 
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MattFord

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Mar 4, 2021
Messages
23
Mae sure you increase vitamin a through liver which will regulate the sebum production and also apply an anti-fungal to your scalp, John Wester done some good research on this and i used philip kingsley scalp tonic on his advice which is effective. You can also use vinegar or vinegar with baking soda as an antifungal topical. Both work well. Should calm diwn the itch by killing the fungi feeding off your sebum. Sorru for not providing links but im on my phone. There are some great threads with good links to other sources on here. John has been quite diligent in his research.
I searched for the scalp tonic,
but I dont see how these indgridients would be beneficial/suffient:

Aqua/Water/Eau, Alcohol Denat., Benzalkonium Chloride, Camphor, Piroctone Olamine, Alcohol.
 

BrianF

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617
The piroctone olamine is highly effective against mites that are linked with inflamation of the scalp and subsequent hairloss.
 

tankasnowgod

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DHT arrives when there is inflammation so I am sure limiting DHT would be beneficial to my problems.

Terrible logic. White blood cells go up when you have an infection, so would limiting your white blood cells be beneficial to infection problems? This is also the same line of logic that was used in the war against cholesterol.

Topical Dutasteride will absorb systemically. Most things topically applied will. It will have higher concentrations in the area applied, but will certainly go systemic over time. Messing with any of the 5AR inhibitors is a bad idea.

Drug companies have even been telling you that Dutasteride will absorb systemically since the very first commercials for the product-



"Women should not take, OR EVEN HANDLE Avodart due to a risk of a specific birth defect." Pretty clear they are warning about systemic absorption from even brief exposure topically.

It's somewhat crazy that people come to a forum named after Ray Peat, and on their very first post, talk about doing something that Ray would be very specifically against because of the danger, especially for a relatively trivial problem like hair loss.

Peat just talked about his ideas on DHT in a livestream last week (starting around the 50 minute mark)-

Peat specifically says DHT is anti-inflammatory at 57:30.

Anyway, why mess around with Dutasteride? Haidut just posted a study that topical DHT can promote hair growth.

 
Last edited:

Sweet Meat

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Joined
Feb 7, 2021
Messages
185
don't touch 5AR inhibitors, it's not worth the risk.

Try the usual anti-inflammatory stuff, pro-thyroid diet while reducing estrogen and prolactin. If you're desperate enough try progesterone and if that doesn't work just accept the fact that you're gonna be bald.

i like MPMD but he's so damn insecure about his hair loss and recommends a lot of ***t (i.e. 5AR inhibitors, isotretinoin for skin health etc.)

i don't think anyone on this forum has had any success with the "usual stuff" - ben button lost what he got and he was 110% peat. raw meat had minor regression and got minor improvements. the others who claim to have results never post pics, yet somehow always linger

i started losing my hair when i was 18 and 16 years later i have more now than i did then, though my head's always shaved so only i would really notice.

in my experience the best things for hair loss is high c02 from walking, stretching and body weights, physical stimulation via brushing, massaging or dermarolling, plenty of sunshine with a well tolerated diet, and onion juice

people laugh at onion juice because it's a folk remedy, but the fact is that it stimulates catalase when applied topically and has been proven in vivo and vitro to flush hydrogen peroxide out of the scalp, thus reversing grey hair. this fact alone proves that the juice will be absorbed effectively and as we know onion juice is also loaded with sulfur (anti calcification properties) and quercetin (anti-inflammatory and a cox2 inhibitor) it also works along the pathways recommended by peat

i don't think you should advise people to just "accept" they will go bald, when hair loss is one of the greatest indicators of cardiac and prostate problems for men, it dismisses the problem as merely cosmetic and offers literally nothing to their situation
 

BrianF

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Mar 25, 2016
Messages
617
i don't think anyone on this forum has had any success with the "usual stuff" - ben button lost what he got and he was 110% peat. raw meat had minor regression and got minor improvements. the others who claim to have results never post pics, yet somehow always linger

i started losing my hair when i was 18 and 16 years later i have more now than i did then, though my head's always shaved so only i would really notice.

in my experience the best things for hair loss is high c02 from walking, stretching and body weights, physical stimulation via brushing, massaging or dermarolling, plenty of sunshine with a well tolerated diet, and onion juice

people laugh at onion juice because it's a folk remedy, but the fact is that it stimulates catalase when applied topically and has been proven in vivo and vitro to flush hydrogen peroxide out of the scalp, thus reversing grey hair. this fact alone proves that the juice will be absorbed effectively and as we know onion juice is also loaded with sulfur (anti calcification properties) and quercetin (anti-inflammatory and a cox2 inhibitor) it also works along the pathways recommended by peat

i don't think you should advise people to just "accept" they will go bald, when hair loss is one of the greatest indicators of cardiac and prostate problems for men, it dismisses the problem as merely cosmetic and offers literally nothing to their situation
Great post, and the reason i always read ths forum - i learn something new every time i log on. Never knew that onion juice would flush HP out of the scalp. Would orally consuming it also work?
 

Sweet Meat

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Messages
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Great post, and the reason i always read ths forum - i learn something new every time i log on. Never knew that onion juice would flush HP out of the scalp. Would orally consuming it also work?

i've read that onion juice, specifically the quercetin is not well absorbed by the body and mostly flushed out. however, i've also read studies that drinking onion juice can provide some of the biggest boosts to testosterone outside of HRT, if you're a mouse haha. whether this is because it obliterates hormone suppressing gut bugs, or some other mechanism, i don't know.

the study i read was specifically about transdermal absorption - when i think on this, i know castor oil is famous for it's hair growth properties because the ricinoleic acid has such a high binding affinity for the prostaglandin receptors, however that is topical- castor oil also has a fairly bad dalton rating in terms of skin absorption. peat has specified that castor oil may be a great tool to clean the gut because it doesn't get absorbed and thus the ricinoleic acid should be a moot point for hair...which it clearly isn't, so it may be the same with onions etc.

based on my own experience i'd say castor oil and garlic/onions can help clean the gut which is always good for hair, but the "ingredients" they provide that are specific to hair loss problems, are probably best applied topically...

i notice that onion juice dries within about 15mins and leaves next to no residue, probably because it is largely structured water with a perfect ratio of fats to bypass the skin's membrane.

something to note is that applying the juice of half a small onion to my head has systemic effects for about an hr, very noticeably. breathing slows, temp seems to be consistent but i can get cold extremeties, similar to how people respond when eating spicy food in hot countries. i'm not sure if it's stress or a natural reaction of compounds that contain allicin (which i've also heard stimulates hair growth)
 
Last edited:

cupofcoffee

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Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
391
i don't think anyone on this forum has had any success with the "usual stuff" - ben button lost what he got and he was 110% peat. raw meat had minor regression and got minor improvements. the others who claim to have results never post pics, yet somehow always linger

i started losing my hair when i was 18 and 16 years later i have more now than i did then, though my head's always shaved so only i would really notice.

in my experience the best things for hair loss is high c02 from walking, stretching and body weights, physical stimulation via brushing, massaging or dermarolling, plenty of sunshine with a well tolerated diet, and onion juice

people laugh at onion juice because it's a folk remedy, but the fact is that it stimulates catalase when applied topically and has been proven in vivo and vitro to flush hydrogen peroxide out of the scalp, thus reversing grey hair. this fact alone proves that the juice will be absorbed effectively and as we know onion juice is also loaded with sulfur (anti calcification properties) and quercetin (anti-inflammatory and a cox2 inhibitor) it also works along the pathways recommended by peat

i don't think you should advise people to just "accept" they will go bald, when hair loss is one of the greatest indicators of cardiac and prostate problems for men, it dismisses the problem as merely cosmetic and offers literally nothing to their situation
You're 100% right, hair loss is a good indicator that something is wrong with your metabolism/health and people should address those problems, but i feel like many people worry more about the cosmetic side, which the last of their problems.
 

Sweet Meat

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Messages
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Great post, and the reason i always read ths forum - i learn something new every time i log on. Never knew that onion juice would flush HP out of the scalp. Would orally consuming it also wor

You're 100% right, hair loss is a good indicator that something is wrong with your metabolism/health and people should address those problems, but i feel like many people worry more about the cosmetic side, which the last of their problems.

i agree

i see guys younger than me who at 26 had more hair than i did at 18, and at 27, had less hair than i do now. their solution is very often to just try and hide it. i could never do that. i shaved everything and focused all my attention on learning whatever i could lol

in retrospect, i think losing hair can be a good incentive to focus on ones' health, i just think it's dangerous when these same people are told to simply "accept it", usually by doctors, which is even worse. taking advice from "experts" who can't explain what the problem is, but are always very certain there's no way to reverse it.

i always love the anecdotes of 80 year olds accidentally regrowing their hair by setting themselves on fire or something. messed up, but incredible how such a simple thing can totally upend modern medical theory.
 
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MattFord

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The piroctone olamine is highly effective against mites that are linked with inflamation of the scalp and subsequent hairloss.
Worth a shot since it seems to adress my symptoms, have placed an order and hoping for the best.
 

BrianF

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Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
617
i've read that onion juice, specifically the quercetin is not well absorbed by the body and mostly flushed out. however, i've also read studies that drinking onion juice can provide some of the biggest boosts to testosterone outside of HRT, if you're a mouse haha. whether this is because it obliterates hormone suppressing gut bugs, or some other mechanism, i don't know.

the study i read was specifically about transdermal absorption - when i think on this, i know castor oil is famous for it's hair growth properties because the ricinoleic acid has such a high binding affinity for the prostaglandin receptors, however that is topical- castor oil also has a fairly bad dalton rating in terms of skin absorption. peat has specified that castor oil may be a great tool to clean the gut because it doesn't get absorbed and thus the ricinoleic acid should be a moot point for hair...which it clearly isn't, so it may be the same with onions etc.

based on my own experience i'd say castor oil and garlic/onions can help clean the gut which is always good for hair, but the "ingredients" they provide that are specific to hair loss problems, are probably best applied topically...

i notice that onion juice dries within about 15mins and leaves next to no residue, probably because it is largely structured water with a perfect ratio of fats to bypass the skin's membrane.

something to note is that applying the juice of half a small onion to my head has systemic effects for about an hr, very noticeably. breathing slows, temp seems to be consistent but i can get cold extremeties, similar to how people respond when eating spicy food in hot countries. i'm not sure if it's stress or a natural reaction of compounds that contain allicin (which i've also heard stimulates hair growth)
When applying the onion juice, do you use anything to lessen the obvious odour?
 

Sweet Meat

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When applying the onion juice, do you use anything to lessen the obvious odour?

no - fresh onion juice loses it's pungency very quickly in open air, hence why you can chop onions without crying if you crush them and wait a while

after 10-15mins i can't smell anything. if you use garlic instead of onions, the concentration of allicin might be high enough to sweat out of your pores though, which i guess could last. mostly though i only get a hint of onion if i do some heavy exercise and sweat a lot, but i never really wash it out, which i guess you could do after an hr, if you're worried about residue
 
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MattFord

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Terrible logic. White blood cells go up when you have an infection, so would limiting your white blood cells be beneficial to infection problems? This is also the same line of logic that was used in the war against cholesterol.

Topical Dutasteride will absorb systemically. Most things topically applied will. It will have higher concentrations in the area applied, but will certainly go systemic over time. Messing with any of the 5AR inhibitors is a bad idea.

Drug companies have even been telling you that Dutasteride will absorb systemically since the very first commercials for the product-



"Women should not take, OR EVEN HANDLE Avodart due to a risk of a specific birth defect." Pretty clear they are warning about systemic absorption from even brief exposure topically.

It's somewhat crazy that people come to a forum named after Ray Peat, and on their very first post, talk about doing something that Ray would be very specifically against because of the danger, especially for a relatively trivial problem like hair loss.

Peat just talked about his ideas on DHT in a livestream last week (starting around the 50 minute mark)-

Peat specifically says DHT is anti-inflammatory at 57:30.

Anyway, why mess around with Dutasteride? Haidut just posted a study that topical DHT can promote hair growth.


I am not convinced of Haiduts theories, and am sceptic of him overall. He acts like MPMD having an agenda selling his supplements - and unfortuneately doesnt even show great health himself.
 

Pablo Cruise

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I cannot address your scalp inflammation. Topical Dutaseride is very effective for hairloss. If made in a suitable liposomal base absorption is minimal. Included in the formulation are gelling agents and filming agents. When we say absorption is minimal that means systemic absorption is minimal to none. Permeation of the skin is around 5 fold greater. How do I know? I make them and I have studied the literature. I am not advertising myself. There are a few places that know how to make an elite product. The problem is that the API (approved pharmaceutical ingredient) is very expensive but is available. Topical liposomal Finasteride may suffice for many. Pharmer999atgmail.com.
 

Sweet Meat

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Messages
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I cannot address your scalp inflammation. Topical Dutaseride is very effective for hairloss. If made in a suitable liposomal base absorption is minimal. Included in the formulation are gelling agents and filming agents. When we say absorption is minimal that means systemic absorption is minimal to none. Permeation of the skin is around 5 fold greater. How do I know? I make them and I have studied the literature. I am not advertising myself. There are a few places that know how to make an elite product. The problem is that the API (approved pharmaceutical ingredient) is very expensive but is available. Topical liposomal Finasteride may suffice for many. Pharmer999atgmail.com.

hi do you know much about using lecithin to improve the viscosity and permeability of oils?

i'm becoming very interested in transdermal therapy
 

Pablo Cruise

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Let's try this again. If properly made top
hi do you know much about using lecithin to improve the viscosity and permeability of oils?

i'm becoming very interested in transdermal therapy
Lecithin is useful for making liposomal formulations. I use it often. Just know you will need some equipment to do it right. You can make on a stove top but crude pray and hope it comes out.
 

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