Topical DHEA for hair loss?!?

[Gungnir]

Not sure why this was not talked about more. Seems extremely significant to me. In Danny Roddy's most recent interview with Ray, an individual asked how to turn vellus hairs into terminal hairs. Ray said that topical DHEA mixed with oil was able to return his eyebrows (I guess they had thinned or fell out) after six months. He also said that a copper solution was able to return color to his hairs almost overnight (only at the roots obviously). Why has no one been talking about this? Ray just said that topical DHEA can turn vellus hairs into terminal ones. Isn't that a REALLY big deal??? Can anyone explain the biology behind this? And why has he never mentioned this before? I have heard he and others talk about topical progesterone for hair growth, but I don't recall him ever saying topical DHEA can return hairs to their terminal state.

​

01:02:15 - Question: How to shift vellus hairs to terminal? DHEA, estrogen, cortisol, prolactin, aldosterone, frontal fibrosing alopecia, PTH

 

[Jack Earth]

Not sure why this was not talked about more. Seems extremely significant to me. In Danny Roddy's most recent interview with Ray, an individual asked how to turn vellus hairs into terminal hairs. Ray said that topical DHEA mixed with oil was able to return his eyebrows (I guess they had thinned or fell out) after six months. He also said that a copper solution was able to return color to his hairs almost overnight (only at the roots obviously). Why has no one been talking about this? Ray just said that topical DHEA can turn vellus hairs into terminal ones. Isn't that a REALLY big deal??? Can anyone explain the biology behind this? And why has he never mentioned this before? I have heard he and others talk about topical progesterone for hair growth, but I don't recall him ever saying topical DHEA can return hairs to their terminal state.

​

01:02:15 - Question: How to shift vellus hairs to terminal? DHEA, estrogen, cortisol, prolactin, aldosterone, frontal fibrosing alopecia, PTH

Nobody here follows Ray's actual hair advice they come up with their own theories. You wont find 1 person here that applies dhea + progesterone topically

 

[Frankdee20]

Are you saying that topical means applied to the scalp ? Or just the skin ?

 

[keytothecity]

I’m sure you can find people in the pansterone thread who have been trying this.

after reading chemhead I have serious doubts any of these topicals discussed here even reach the hair follicle. He was talking about osmotic pressure regarding why topical estrogen only starts working when you get feminization effects from it, although you would need it only in your follicle.
I’m suspecting many other compounds might work that way, and that minox is particularly good to change the osmosis by itself and hack its way in the follicle pretty much.
If you take high bodybuilder doses like guys who get regrowth on nandrolone we are in a different ballpark and it might work, especially because you got your estrogen covered
What topical that doesn’t work systemically has shown any result? Keep in mind oral minox even works better than topical, too.
I simply don’t think topicals work anymore. The change has to be systemic and ideally you want to achieve the hormonal state necessary for great hair without exogenous stuff.
Everyone can look up pubmed and come up with a nice topical that should work. I wonder why they never do.

 

[tallglass13]

I think it's because DHEA has been implicated in hair loss, just as your title reads. My concern is that DHEA is high in young balding men. It's also high in PCOS balding women. It's known to increase estrogen and higher doses. In the email depository, Ray is quoted as saying DHEA can cause oily skin and sex dreams.
I am more skeptical of using topical DHEA on my scalp than I am using topical testosterone. However, Ray could be right, he usually is.

 

[Scenes]

Nobody here follows Ray's actual hair advice they come up with their own theories. You wont find 1 person here that applies dhea + progesterone topically

I am. Started 3 days ago: 3mg dhea, 9mg prog, hairline only. See if I have the patience to go 6 months.

It still has systemic effects because the product absorbs easily in oil. Muscles feel firmer, forehead skin looks bit nicer.

 

[Jack Earth]

I am. Started 3 days ago: 3mg dhea, 9mg prog, hairline only. See if I have the patience to go 6 months.

It still has systemic effects because the product absorbs easily in oil. Muscles feel firmer, forehead skin looks bit nicer.

Good to see keep us posted. Why a 3:1 ratio though? Was that what peat suggested?

 

[Scenes]

Good to see keep us posted. Why a 3:1 ratio though? Was that what peat suggested?

It's the product I have. Cortinon from idealabs.

 

[keytothecity]

I am. Started 3 days ago: 3mg dhea, 9mg prog, hairline only. See if I have the patience to go 6 months.

It still has systemic effects because the product absorbs easily in oil. Muscles feel firmer, forehead skin looks bit nicer.

I don’t think a topical progesterone effect would be what you want tbh, not that I think it will have an effect.
The reason fin works is not because it shares similarities structurally with progesterone IMO, but because it leaves estrogen (relatively) unopposed by DHT, while also usually upregulating E. This means more E agonism in the follicles
Maybe it could work if you are prone to gyno, gaining fat and losing hair in a more diffuse pattern though. I’m not entirely sure why men with high e receptor density in tissue lose hair, other than being terribly inflamed (they get away with way more but not everything).

if you are lean and receding I think progesterone will speed your mpb up, and I have read of people here reporting it

 

[johnwester130]

Not sure why this was not talked about more. Seems extremely significant to me. In Danny Roddy's most recent interview with Ray, an individual asked how to turn vellus hairs into terminal hairs. Ray said that topical DHEA mixed with oil was able to return his eyebrows (I guess they had thinned or fell out) after six months. He also said that a copper solution was able to return color to his hairs almost overnight (only at the roots obviously). Why has no one been talking about this? Ray just said that topical DHEA can turn vellus hairs into terminal ones. Isn't that a REALLY big deal??? Can anyone explain the biology behind this? And why has he never mentioned this before? I have heard he and others talk about topical progesterone for hair growth, but I don't recall him ever saying topical DHEA can return hairs to their terminal state.

​

01:02:15 - Question: How to shift vellus hairs to terminal? DHEA, estrogen, cortisol, prolactin, aldosterone, frontal fibrosing alopecia, PTH

1) In previous contact with Ray Peat he answered this exact question.
He said the solution to turn vellus into terminal hairs was to lower PTH.


2) Only ketoconazole and miconazole are known to block the glucocorticoid receptor. Some people used them to regrow hair
Spironolactone blocks the aldosterone receptor which also blocks the cortisol receptor.

 

[Jack Earth]

1) In previous contact with Ray Peat he answered this exact question.
He said the solution to turn vellus into terminal hairs was to lower PTH.


2) Only ketoconazole and miconazole are known to block the glucocorticoid receptor. Some people used them to regrow hair
Spironolactone blocks the aldosterone receptor which also blocks the cortisol receptor.

Remember travis used to show pics of regrowth in people using spiro? I wonder if anyone tried that it's been almost 2 years since he posted that I think

 

[keytothecity]

Remember travis used to show pics of regrowth in people using spiro? I wonder if anyone tried that it's been almost 2 years since he posted that I think

Lol it’s well known in the hair loss community spiro regrows hair but its not exactly side effect free

 

[johnwester130]

Remember travis used to show pics of regrowth in people using spiro? I wonder if anyone tried that it's been almost 2 years since he posted that I think

Did he? I don't remember he posted any pictures. Sadly he has died.

Topical miconazole does not block the androgen receptor. Spironolactone and Ketoconazole do block the androgen receptor though.

 

[johnwester130]

Lol it’s well known in the hair loss community spiro regrows hair but its not exactly side effect free

Topical spironolactone has no systemic effects, however, it also doesn't regrow much hair.

I think miconazole would be better. It blocks the cortisol receptor, but not the androgen receptor. People have actually posted pictures of it working, and they used the cream which is much worse than the liquid tincture.

 

[Murtaza]

solution to turn vellus into terminal hairs was to lower PTH

Hey you mind refrencing where ray said that? thanks

 

[johnwester130]

Hey you mind refrencing where ray said that? thanks

I literally asked him the same question in an email about 2 years ago.
He has also mentioned in a radio interview that animals without a parathyroid grow huge amounts of hair.

KMUD: Hair Loss, Inflammation and Osteoporosis (2012)

Raymond Peat, Ph.D. HAIR LOSS, INFLAMMATION AND OSTEOPOROSIS KMUD “Ask Your Herb Doctor” (2012) HD - Andrew Murray and Sarah Johannesen-Murray RP - Ray Peat HD: Dr Peat, could you please let listeners know about your academic background? RP: I studied biology at the University of Oregon...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Gungnir]

1) In previous contact with Ray Peat he answered this exact question.
He said the solution to turn vellus into terminal hairs was to lower PTH.


2) Only ketoconazole and miconazole are known to block the glucocorticoid receptor. Some people used them to regrow hair
Spironolactone blocks the aldosterone receptor which also blocks the cortisol receptor.

I wonder why he did not mention lowering PTH for vellus to terminal when the question was asked. All he mentioned was topical DHEA. But he did not explain the biology of it.

So how does one lower PTH? Just increase calcium and vitamin d?

 

[tallglass13]

Topical spironolactone has no systemic effects, however, it also doesn't regrow much hair.

I think miconazole would be better. It blocks the cortisol receptor, but not the androgen receptor. People have actually posted pictures of it working, and they used the cream which is much worse than the liquid tincture.

Hey John,
I don't think that's quite true, even though I wish it was. That topical spironolactone has no side effects. Everything applied topically has an effect. I have some and I tried, and felt fatigue all over my body. I was very disappointed because I thought I would be able to use it topically. I cannot use any prescription drugs in or on my body. I feel everything. Minoxidil gave me all the side effects including chest discomfort and short of breath. And they usually design topicals to get as deep as possible, hence why there's vehicles like either alcohol or glycerin. I agree with Danny Roddy when he says everything you put on your body you should be able to eat. Our skin is a living and largest organ, and putting anything poisonous or toxic on it will have an ill effect some way somehow.

 

[johnwester130]

Hey John,
I don't think that's quite true, even though I wish it was. That topical spironolactone has no side effects. Everything applied topically has an effect. I have some and I tried, and felt fatigue all over my body. I was very disappointed because I thought I would be able to use it topically. I cannot use any prescription drugs in or on my body. I feel everything. Minoxidil gave me all the side effects including chest discomfort and short of breath. And they usually design topicals to get as deep as possible, hence why there's vehicles like either alcohol or glycerin. I agree with Danny Roddy when he says everything you put on your body you should be able to eat. Our skin is a living and largest organ, and putting anything poisonous or toxic on it will have an ill effect some way somehow.

That's very unfortunate

Thankfully a person does not need it because even the wikipedia page says it does not reduce cortisol that much due to feedback issues.


On a separate issue, why the hate for 7 keto DHEA on this forum?

 

[jnklheimer]

the regrowth on nandrolone thing is interesting