Yeah it's not easy, I've also tried and failed a few times. If you ever change your mind rutabaga and turnips are a little bit like potato. Not very nutritious but helps getting that full feeling. Also - you might not notice any immediate symptoms from indigestion from starch and dairy, I believe it can kind of creep up on you over time. Just want to emphasize this because I went for a very long time not suspecting how closely related my health problems were to my digestion, not saying this is your case.Appreciate your input!
I have definitely tried to cut out starch as much as possible but find that sooo difficult! I never feel satiated if I go to zero. But I try to stick to well cooked potatoes, sweet potatoes and squash in the winter. White rice, soaked oats and oat bran only on occasion because they definitely do cause issues... I just wish I did not crave them so much. But I know there are varying opinions on that and I hope I didn't just open a can of worms there
I sadly cannot tolerate but a little milk in my coffee, always go for A2. I can do ice cream but I pack on the pounds if I overdo it. So try to stick to zero fat greek yogurt/skyr and cheese for calcium (and sometimes well cooked kale)- I don't think those are causing my any issues, at least not in the immediate (e.g., bloating, constipation, low blood sugar/temps).
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Too young to be feeling this bad...what next?
- Thread starter curious_anthro
- Start date
PeskyPeater
Member
well, with PCOS, the initial dose is 1 teaspoon to overcome the estrogen, right. But I think with subsequent high dosing you were chasing the allopregnanolone buzz.
It could be that with the chronic use birth-control pill induced changed structure of the neurosteroids in the brain and probably caused hypersensitivity to estrogen elsewhere and that is why you feel better on topical application
if you like to read about rooibos here is the study: Rooibos Flavonoids Inhibit the Activity of Key Adrenal Steroidogenic Enzymes, Modulating Steroid Hormone Levels in H295R Cells
mostlylurking
Member
chronic fatigue: hypothyroidism, thiamine deficiency/functional blockage.
cycles issues and pcos: estrogen dominance. Please note that estrogen dominance blocks thyroid function. The liver is supposed to detox the estrogen, but it needs thiamine + riboflavin to do its job. If you're constipated, your body will reabsorb the estrogen instead of eliminating it. Thiamine is required for gut peristalsis.
insomnia: high adrenaline compensating for low functioning metabolism.
constipation: hypothyroidism, thiamine deficiency/functional blockage
brain fog: hypothyroidism, thiamine deficiency/functional blockage.
acne: compromised gut, probably caused by hypothyroidism, thiamine deficiency/functional blockage.
exercise intolerance: hypothyroidism, thiamine deficiency/functional blockage.
heat/cold intolerance: hypothyroidism, thiamine deficiency/functional blockage.
"-flu-like - this is a newer symptom that is really odd... usually after using caffeine, progesterone, aspirin and vitamin k2 I start feeling like I am coming down with something and have a sore, tight chest and throat, upset stomach and sometimes get really bad migraine": too complicated to sort out but coffee blocks thiamine function.
-Thiamine hcl- did nothing for me at 500mg daily: If your gut is messed up, your ability to absorb thiamine is compromised. I found that this book has a wealth of good information about dosages and types of thiamine: Parkinson's and the B1 Therapy One of the types of thiamine supplement discussed is sublingual tablets which work even if you have gut problems.
-Niacinamide- also noticed no benefit after taking for 3 months at high doses: I found high doses made me loopy; small doses help. I take 90mg, 4Xday which seems to be helpful.
-vitamin d- helped at first then made me feel worse so I stopped: Have you tested your vitamin D levels? I couldn't get mine up to normal until I increased my dose to 10,000 iu/daily. It took a while to get it up above 60.
-getting more sunlight and sleep- I could sleep for days anyway and more than an hour of sun makes me feel like I have a hangover: Sounds like you are highly stressed and living with poor oxidative metabolism = hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency/functional blockage.
"-Natpro progesterone cream - up to 400mg a day. I have tried Progest-E but couldn't get high enough dose/not convenient for high doses": Are you using this topically? Did you try rubbing the Progest-e on your gums? Trying to use progesterone topically isn't very helpful; only about 20% gets absorbed.
Please listen to these audio shows:
- Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
- Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
- Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3
Sounds like you're really trying! The prawns count as shellfish, just like oysters. If you choose to try oysters again, cook them; don't eat them raw.
Sounds like you're consuming a lot of sugary/starchy things which will deplete your thiamine stores.
Ray Peat has written that avocados are a toxic food because they have too much pufa.
Just eat oysters cooked, never raw. But the prawns work fine too.
Hypothyroidism. TSH ideally should be below 1. "In range" doesn't mean anything when the test isn't calibrated properly.
Increasing your carbon dioxide will improve your oxygen status. Carbon dioxide is very low when thiamine deficient because it is not created via healthy oxidative metabolism. Thyroid hormone is also needed for healthy oxidative metabolism.
If you are trying to get progesterone via topical application, you are only getting about 20% benefit. Please listen to the Politics and Science shows linked above.
A side effect of cypro is constipation. Thiamine lowers serotonin in the brain.
Coffee blocks thiamine. I had to stop it entirely.
If you had high serotonin in the gut it would cause diarrhea, not constipation. Your adrenals are probably working overtime to compensate for hypothyroidism.
I'm a big fan of progesterone but it needs to be taken orally. Rub it on the gums so it has good entry into the body.
Hang in there and keep researching. Focusing on thyroid supplementation and thiamine would be very helpful.
a few links:
When SIBO & IBS-Constipation are just unrecognized thiamine deficiency
In many people chronic upper constipation and GERD are misdiagnosed as bacterial overgrowth. Unfortunately, they are often non-responsive to antimicrobial treatments. Yet, sometimes the issues improve greatly with vitamin B1 repletion. In this case, the "SIBO" diagnosis is simply a symptom of an...
www.eonutrition.co.uk
Korven
Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2019
- Messages
- 1,133
No worries - yeah it is difficult navigating chronic illness...
Dealing with symptoms, trying to make sense of your personal situation/history, trying different protocols/supplements, trying to assess whether what you are currently doing is working or not working, all whilst trying to stay rational and not do some stupid mistake because of your emotions, not cave in to defeatism, apathy and self-loathing, and so on and so forth.
And you touched upon another difficulty with trying to get better: all of the conflicting perspectives. Now I actually feel a little bad for giving you a list of random things to try out. Information overload is another issue and again, when you feel sick and often irrational, you tend to change things based on daily symptoms (...at least I do LOL). Which is really not a great idea if you actually want to make progress or accurately assess how effective your current approach/supplement/diet is. I don't have any great advice except that it is important to be patient and not change things from week to week.
Yup I have been dealing with the exact same "flu-like" symptoms flaring up randomly. I have actually been making progress with these, and have my theories on what is going on in the body, but it's not so easy to fix in the short-term. Gut health/digestion seems to be one of the most important things to address and helping your immune system in getting rid of any "bad bugs".
I became interested in lactoferrin after seeing @artist 's posts on how lactoferrin can fix CFS/post-viral issues as well as endotoxin and histamine (MCAS) issues. I have only been taking lactoferrin for 1 week so it's too early for me to draw any meaningful conclusions, but I can already feel some changes happening, sort of like the "chronic malaise" is lifting and have been exercising pretty regularly without any crash. Just went for a long swim! At one point I couldn't walk around my house without crashing -- that was depressing.
What I like about lactoferrin is that your own immune cells make lactoferrin so it's not a foreign substance, and it is not an anti-inflammatory in the typical sense, in some ways it is pro-inflammatory (anti-microbial) and seems to shift the immune system towards a TH1 immune response which aids in killing intracellular "stealthy" pathogens. It deprives nasty bugs of iron which helps get rid of any chronic infection. It also promotes a healthier gut microbiome and improves gut barrier function. It promotes wound healing. And a bunch of other things which I forgot to mention!
Anyways that is enough rambling, I wish you all the best and hope you find the health you are looking for
OP
curious_anthro
Member
@mostlylurking incredibly kind of you to take the time to write such a thorough response. Deeply grateful for your input.
Open to trying thiamine/niacinamide again but the way you suggested.
I am aware progesterone is only 20% topically but just did seem to do well with progest-e alone. At 400mg dose, I am still absorbing 80mg which should be enough? As I mentioned in the response to @PeskyPeater I wonder if there is something else going on like the production of metabolites via cream. I am no expert though.
Really helpful corrections with understanding serotonin, thank you.
I would love to try thyroid supplementation but I am too scared and unsure if I am in the right place for it yet. But I shall look into those excellent resources you have shared!
Open to trying thiamine/niacinamide again but the way you suggested.
I am aware progesterone is only 20% topically but just did seem to do well with progest-e alone. At 400mg dose, I am still absorbing 80mg which should be enough? As I mentioned in the response to @PeskyPeater I wonder if there is something else going on like the production of metabolites via cream. I am no expert though.
Really helpful corrections with understanding serotonin, thank you.
Yes, this is what I am starting to understand, well said.
I would love to try thyroid supplementation but I am too scared and unsure if I am in the right place for it yet. But I shall look into those excellent resources you have shared!
Korven
Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2019
- Messages
- 1,133
I haven't... well, I did sort of do a 'Marshall-lite protocol' this winter because I didn't see the sun for 8 months (and I avoided supplemental D like the plague!). During this time my health improved a lot despite the lack of D. However I would be interested in trying it if I could actually find a doctor who would prescribe all these drugs to me.
I just have this gut feeling that the principles behind the Marshall protocol are correct. Actually it's more than a gut feeling, after I took large doses of 'anti-inflammatory' vitamin D I started feeling extremely sick and unwell. I am now also thinking that ALL the anti-inflammatory drugs and supplements, e.g aspirin, have delayed true healing for me. Basically I am a dumbass trying to supplement my way to health with anti-inflammatories while my body WANTS inflammation to get rid of "bad bugs"/intracellular pathogens.
That looks like an interesting supplement, I would be very curious to hear what your results are with it.
Another theory I have is that the carnivore diet heals people because all the plant COX-2/TLR-4 inhibiting phytochemicals are removed from the diet. Thus immune system can come back online and kill the bugs. And the lack of gut endotoxin which uses up the immune systems resources/energy/"ammo".
OP
curious_anthro
Member
No worries - yeah it is difficult navigating chronic illness...
Dealing with symptoms, trying to make sense of your personal situation/history, trying different protocols/supplements, trying to assess whether what you are currently doing is working or not working, all whilst trying to stay rational and not do some stupid mistake because of your emotions, not cave in to defeatism, apathy and self-loathing, and so on and so forth.
And you touched upon another difficulty with trying to get better: all of the conflicting perspectives. Now I actually feel a little bad for giving you a list of random things to try out. Information overload is another issue and again, when you feel sick and often irrational, you tend to change things based on daily symptoms (...at least I do LOL). Which is really not a great idea if you actually want to make progress or accurately assess how effective your current approach/supplement/diet is. I don't have any great advice except that it is important to be patient and not change things from week to week.
Yup I have been dealing with the exact same "flu-like" symptoms flaring up randomly. I have actually been making progress with these, and have my theories on what is going on in the body, but it's not so easy to fix in the short-term. Gut health/digestion seems to be one of the most important things to address and helping your immune system in getting rid of any "bad bugs".
I became interested in lactoferrin after seeing @artist 's posts on how lactoferrin can fix CFS/post-viral issues as well as endotoxin and histamine (MCAS) issues. I have only been taking lactoferrin for 1 week so it's too early for me to draw any meaningful conclusions, but I can already feel some changes happening, sort of like the "chronic malaise" is lifting and have been exercising pretty regularly without any crash. Just went for a long swim! At one point I couldn't walk around my house without crashing -- that was depressing.
What I like about lactoferrin is that your own immune cells make lactoferrin so it's not a foreign substance, and it is not an anti-inflammatory in the typical sense, in some ways it is pro-inflammatory (anti-microbial) and seems to shift the immune system towards a TH1 immune response which aids in killing intracellular "stealthy" pathogens. It deprives nasty bugs of iron which helps get rid of any chronic infection. It also promotes a healthier gut microbiome and improves gut barrier function. It promotes wound healing. And a bunch of other things which I forgot to mention!
Anyways that is enough rambling, I wish you all the best and hope you find the health you are looking for
Yes ughhh that all is so relatable. Makes me feel less insane to know someone else has been there and gets it. My poor husband tries hard to listen and understand but the man has an impenetrable gut and great health so he can only empathise so much LOL
And don't worry, I am really loving this information overload because it means I can spend the next few months sifting through it. As an academic, I am not scared of big data and analysis so it excites me to have all of these new perspectives and advice. I felt like I had reached a dead end with my own research so this has given me new directions to explore.
I am going to keep in touch with you about your lactoferrin experience for sure and so glad to hear its helped you so far. Sometimes even just temporary relief is better than nothing because, as you alluded to, when the symptoms get so bad desperation will make you try anything. I don't think its always a bad thing... sometimes you just have to take things one day at a time to keep from falling completely off the edge.
OP
curious_anthro
Member
Oh and can I also ask what sublingual thiamine tablets you tried @mostlylurking? I had a quick look and was having trouble finding some that are available in the UK
PeskyPeater
Member
You keep claiming this, I feel this is unfounded. That is you, most people do fine on coffee that have build tolerance to it.
Coffee contains tannins that are considered antithiamine for they may bind to thiamine in the gut.
I think you are not aware of, the tannins actions on thiamine are inactivated with vitamin C. So the chance of coffee drank with a meal of blocking thiamine function is rare.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...en_dependence_and_inhibition_by_ascorbic_acid
PeskyPeater
Member
Well, you have lot's of hypo symptoms, it's pretty clear if you asked me . Why are you afraid, dosing? when you have got the right dosing knowledge it is pretty safe.
Dr peat said to start with 1/8 of a Cynoplus tablet. that is very unlikely to overdose on.
taking 5-10mcg t3 per dose is safe when taken with meals. staying around 12.5mcg of t4 is safe. always with meals
As the half life of t4 is two weeks, you want to stick to the same dose for about 2-4 weeks while monitoring your temp and heart rate on paper, before increasing dosage.
When t4/t3 has effect sooner than 2 weeks you can lower the dosage of t4 by half.
here is danny roddy about thyroid dosing : Demystifying Thyroid Supplementation
here is an thyroid conversion guide: Thyroid Conversion Guide | Get Real Thyroid
mostlylurking
Member
The book I suggested above, Parkinson's and the B1 Therapy, provides important information about thiamine supplementation along with multiple personal stories that include dosages and symptoms relieved. I think that anyone who is suffering from a thiamine deficiency/functional blockage would benefit from the information found there. The doses that worked are varied and dependent on the person's needs. It helps to learn what worked for others.
Do you mean 400mg of Progest-e? This would equal 40mg of progesterone (if progesterone is 10% of the product), which would equal 8mg absorbed via topical application.
You're welcome, but I'd like to try to add a little more info. 2 years ago when my thiamine function got blocked (via Bactrim antibiotic), I became extremely constipated (pooping little squiggles at best) AND I was very sensitive to serotonin which I interpreted to mean I was high serotonin. A tiny bit of methylene blue made me feel horrible (it is an mao inhibitor which is dangerous if you take ssri's which increase serotonin). Just eating a banana or a little pineapple made me have a strong negative reaction. Both of these fruits are high serotonin. So I do think you can be high serotonin and constipated at the same time. I believe that high dose thiamine supplementation resolved both my gut problems and my serotonin sensitivity problem. I'm really enjoying eating bananas again.
Ideally, you should try to find a competent endocrinologist who knows what they're doing. I think one way to do that is to ask the local pharmacists which doctors are prescribing natural desiccated thyroid. It is important to learn as much as you can via Ray Peat articles about hypothyroidism and the treatment of it before you select a physician to help you.
If you are hypothyroid, then that is what you should address and not put it off. It is a tricky thing to deal with if you also have thiamine troubles too because if the thyroid hormone supplementation is too high it can cause a thiamine deficiency. The thyroid needs thiamine to function. Too much thyroid med can use up all your thiamine. I personally don't think that supplementing thiamine would be detrimental but it would help to read the book, Parkinson's and the B1 Therapy to become familiar with the ins and outs of it.
I read the article about vitamin C being helpful re. the coffee/thiamine issue recently. However, it was my personal experience two years ago that even though I was consuming a quart of orange juice daily at that time, trying to drink a cup of coffee nearly dropped me to the floor because I was suffering from a thiamine functional blockage at the time. So I will rely on my own personal experience and not drink coffee because I know that I have a problem re. thiamine function (or I have a higher requirement for thiamine due to heavy metal body load).
I had built up a "tolerance" to coffee prior to getting my thiamine function blocked. I was supplementing with around 300mg thiamine 2Xday when the coffee knocked the wind out of me. I had only drunk about half of the cup when it happened to me. I didn't finish the cup.
Perry Staltic
Member
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- Dec 14, 2020
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- 8,186
@curious_anthro when did this start? Gradual decline over years or sudden onset?
PeskyPeater
Member
Thanks for your reaction. I see. That was not a great experience. I cant tolerate any caffeine anymore bc it gives me terrible phlegm. Where can a thiamine deficiency come from? Does orange juice have any thing to do with it, what happens when you quit OJ?
mostlylurking
Member
Well, you can be born with enzymes with weak attraction for their cofactor, thiamine, which would require more thiamine that other people's needs. Or you could get mercury amalgam fillings. Or you could pick up some lead (heavy metal) by just living. Or you could find yourself on the far side of 60 and find that you can no longer absorb thiamine via the gut very well. Or you could drink alcohol. Or eat too much sugar in relation to how much thiamine your body has available. If you are an athlete and drink alcohol you are more likely to get into real trouble with thiamine deficiency. Or if you wind up in the hospital in intensive care you could become thiamine deficient.
Lots of pharmaceutical drugs block thiamine function. If you take any, you can to a search for the name of the medication and "thiamine". Some antibiotics block thiamine. Metformin blocks thiamine. Ciprofloxacin blocks thiamine. Vaccines will block thiamine.
There's evidence that PUFA blocks thiamine function.
How Dietary Mayhem Causes Disease: The Choked Engine Syndrome - Hormones Matter
Diets high in sugar and simple carbohydrates predispose one to thiamine deficiency. Thiamine deficiency leads to dysfunctional oxidative metabolism.
www.hormonesmatter.com
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OP
curious_anthro
Member
@mostlylurking Very intriguing for sure. Seen a lot of people talk about thiamine helping them on here, and in other circles, so must be something to it.
@PeskyPeater thanks for sharing those resources about thyroid. I have read Danny's article. Brilliant stuff. But again, I feel like where my health is currently, it could just make things worse in terms of nutrient/mineral deficiencies.
Dunno. Feels like chicken/egg situation: take thyroid to speed up your metabolism and transit time and help heal your gut by not allowing things to ferment BUT be careful of taking thyroid if you have a bad gut and are not absorbing the nutrients that are going to be used up even faster if your metabolism is boosted...
Sorry for the confusion. I use 400mg of topical Natpro progesterone cream daily. If topical absorption is 20% then that would equate to 80mg absorbed. I would have to use a crap ton of Progest-e to get that much and I also think I might be benefitting from topical use due to the other metabolites I am getting from 5-AR enzymes in the skin as Georgi hypothesized? But I don't know I just go on how I feel.
I agree but exactly what you said about it being tricky to supplement thyroid if there is a thiamine deficiency is where my caution comes in. When finances allow I think I will seek help with thyroid supplementation!
@PeskyPeater thanks for sharing those resources about thyroid. I have read Danny's article. Brilliant stuff. But again, I feel like where my health is currently, it could just make things worse in terms of nutrient/mineral deficiencies.
Dunno. Feels like chicken/egg situation: take thyroid to speed up your metabolism and transit time and help heal your gut by not allowing things to ferment BUT be careful of taking thyroid if you have a bad gut and are not absorbing the nutrients that are going to be used up even faster if your metabolism is boosted...
John mcclain
Member
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- Dec 1, 2017
- Messages
- 121
If there is one thing that grates me is crazy push for coffee...and I know everyone loves it...me included but everytime I stop drinking coffee for long enough almost all my symptoms go away...to the point I add coffee because it's one helluva drug...and to my detriment I go back to feeling like garbage...I've learned coffee is an absolute no go...and probably causes more harm than good...good luck to the OP I hope you get well soon.
View: https://youtu.be/y_xA70lWrDs
View: https://youtu.be/y_xA70lWrDs
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OP
curious_anthro
Member
Hard to say. Sometimes I think it started from birth or at least childhood.
As a child, I was incredibly thin yet I ate around the clock. The doctor even accused my mom of not feeding me enough and all she knew was that I was a bottomless pit. I remember having digestive issues though, constipation at times and diarrhea other times. Also I had my tonsils removed at age 8 because I kept having recurrent strep throat. I had a traumatic childhood so I know that must have contributed. My mom also had hormone issues and when she was pregnant with me the doctors (obviously not very bright ones) nearly had me removed because they thought I was a cyst (a joke that remains in my family). That tells me she must have already had cysts but this was before pcos was really well known. I was also a very "late bloomer" (problematic term I am sure)... at 16 I didn't really have a period and still looked like a child. I was also an athlete at that time though so that must have been contributing.
Add on top of that all the other abuse I listed in adulthood with diet, exercise and birth control.
OP
curious_anthro
Member
Yea it is indeed powerful. I have gone periods without it and the only thing it helped was my sleep and anxiety (slightly). Problem is, I reeaalllyyy like the taste of coffee. Living in Europe/UK made this even worse... I realised that American coffee is garbage LOL
Perry Staltic
Member
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You said you used to be very active, but now exercise more than 3 days per week exhausts you. When did that start?
OP
curious_anthro
Member
Hmmm probably two years ago but has gotten even worse in the last 6 months. Good to reflect on
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