Too much REM sleep vs too low Deep sleep

faxmulder

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Joined
Jan 21, 2020
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151
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!
 

Beastmode

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Joined
Feb 7, 2017
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1,258
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!

Has it ever been proven that someone can get too much REM sleep?

Deep sleep is a product of a well rounded approach that improves your system as whole. Some people here, and outside of the forum I know, claim that a little T3/T4 before bed with something sugary can really improve sleep.

Wearing blue blocking glasses, according to some who wear sleep trackers, dramatically improves deep sleep. I believe an hour before bed is what was said.

I would be more concerned with your morning temps and pulse upon waking than these variable sleep trackers.
 

Hans

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Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!
Serotonin, cortisol, low thyroid and progesterone, low body temps and gut irritation are common things that prevent deep sleep.
Carbs, aspirin and thyroid can greatly enhance deep sleep.
Low body temps are one of the biggest factors that disrupt proper deep sleep.
 

CreakyJoints

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Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
304
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!

Fascinating, I would have thought napping would actually reduce your need for it - yes, you can definitely dream a lot when napping. You can even dream a lot in just a minute or two.

I assume you are tracking this using your phone - what is your tracker actually reading; movement via gyroscope, or audio via microphone/super high frequency emissions? I think sometimes these methods are not particularly accurate. Also, I believe some varieties of audio tracking are actually unhelpful for sleep, they may be disturbing you without your knowing. The other thing to consider is when you're actually sleeping.

I don't know anything about that medication specifically, but is it possible for you to get an antihistamine to use before bed as opposed to in the morning? I have friends who report very deep sleep after using them last thing in the evening. If this is not problematic for your condition, it could potentially be easier than introducing an additional substance or supplement. Having said that, I think Ray Peat has mentioned progesterone a few times as a substance which can promote very deep sleep - I'm thinking of the one story he tells about rubbing it in a rabbit's ears, and his friend thought the rabbit had died but it was just super-relaxed.
 
OP
F

faxmulder

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Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
151
Serotonin, cortisol, low thyroid and progesterone, low body temps and gut irritation are common things that prevent deep sleep.
Carbs, aspirin and thyroid can greatly enhance deep sleep.
Low body temps are one of the biggest factors that disrupt proper deep sleep.
Thanks man,

So antihistamine is not affecting the REM/deep sleep ratio in any way?

In the past it seemed that after a period using a stack with B complex, ubiquinol, bacopa and cordyceps I was sleeping better. Just a coincidence or is there any truth?

Regarding low body temp you are right, I have chilling hands... is there any natural supplement or herb that can help? Thank you!
 

baccheion

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Jun 25, 2017
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Switch to biphasic sleep (2-3 cycles deep preceded by associated supplements/foods/etc, 1 cycle awake, 2-3 cycles REM preceded by salt/honey or other REM-associated things).
 

Nomane Euger

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Sep 22, 2020
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Switch to biphasic sleep (2-3 cycles deep preceded by associated supplements/foods/etc, 1 cycle awake, 2-3 cycles REM preceded by salt/honey or other REM-associated things).
Hi,expand on that,you described my unintentional and accidental best nights of my life
 

Melekai

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Jul 8, 2017
Messages
40
A friend of mine is a performance coach, and has noted he does best when he gets a combined total of 4 hrs of deep + REM.

I've been using an Oura ring for the past 8 mos to confirm what I'd sensed about inadequate deep and REM sleep; various stressors had me floating (in a bad way) in light sleep nearly exclusively, and I was only "unconscious" for ~4hrs/nt. I've added layer upon layer of various things that have collectively gotten me to a much better overall state, pretty routinely having total deep+REM in the range of 3-3.5 hrs. The stack: policosanol (20mg) and cruciferous vegetable extract (1 cap of Life Extensions product; or actual dietary cruciferous veggies) in the evening; 20-30mg progesterone, magnesium, and CBD creams (all topical) at bedtime. Also see Stasha Gominak (MD) on youtube (any of her long-form interviews or talks) re: depletion/rebalancing of B-5 (--> B-complex) levels against serum vit D levels for deep and REM sleep. I did her 100mg-B-complex repletion protocol for a couple months, then backed off (as per the protocol). I've also noticed another increment of restfulness since I started doing BFR (blood-flow restriction) training ~4 days/wk over the last month. Don't want to jinx it, but I just had my first >4hr deep+REM last night in the 8 mos I've been tracking. (Yesterday was a rest day; for me, there's a one-day lag between a BFR session and excellent sleep.)
 

Hans

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Thanks man,

So antihistamine is not affecting the REM/deep sleep ratio in any way?

In the past it seemed that after a period using a stack with B complex, ubiquinol, bacopa and cordyceps I was sleeping better. Just a coincidence or is there any truth?

Regarding low body temp you are right, I have chilling hands... is there any natural supplement or herb that can help? Thank you!
Histamine is a wake-promoting substance, so blocking it can cause sedation and better sleep. Depending on the drug that you used and its half-life, perhaps if you took it in the morning it might cause a rebound (or receptors became more sensitized) before bed and disrupt sleep.
Bacopa and cordyceps can act as adaptogens. B6 is necessary for GABA synthesis. B vitamins in general are needed for energy production. Folate and B12 can boost methylation to enhance the breakdown of dopamine, noradrenaline and histamine which can help with sleep. Q10 helps with energy production, which can then help improve sleep.

But I'd say body temps and thyroid are the biggest things that can help sleep. If your body takes forever to heat up, you won't be able to get deep sleep. If it takes you 4 hours, then you'll be in light sleep for 4 hours. If you never reach optimal temps, then you'll most likely get little to no deep sleep. This has happened to me a lot when I was hypometabolic and that's why aspirin with carbs before bed helped me sleep better. A little bit of thyroid before bed is also great for sleep for me.
So for body temps, aspirin, carbs, progesterone and thyroid.
 
OP
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faxmulder

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Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
151
Histamine is a wake-promoting substance, so blocking it can cause sedation and better sleep. Depending on the drug that you used and its half-life, perhaps if you took it in the morning it might cause a rebound (or receptors became more sensitized) before bed and disrupt sleep.
Bacopa and cordyceps can act as adaptogens. B6 is necessary for GABA synthesis. B vitamins in general are needed for energy production. Folate and B12 can boost methylation to enhance the breakdown of dopamine, noradrenaline and histamine which can help with sleep. Q10 helps with energy production, which can then help improve sleep.

But I'd say body temps and thyroid are the biggest things that can help sleep. If your body takes forever to heat up, you won't be able to get deep sleep. If it takes you 4 hours, then you'll be in light sleep for 4 hours. If you never reach optimal temps, then you'll most likely get little to no deep sleep. This has happened to me a lot when I was hypometabolic and that's why aspirin with carbs before bed helped me sleep better. A little bit of thyroid before bed is also great for sleep for me.
So for body temps, aspirin, carbs, progesterone and thyroid.
Thanks man!
 

Nomane Euger

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Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
1,407
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!
Do you wake up during the night?
 
OP
F

faxmulder

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Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
151
A friend of mine is a performance coach, and has noted he does best when he gets a combined total of 4 hrs of deep + REM.

I've been using an Oura ring for the past 8 mos to confirm what I'd sensed about inadequate deep and REM sleep; various stressors had me floating (in a bad way) in light sleep nearly exclusively, and I was only "unconscious" for ~4hrs/nt. I've added layer upon layer of various things that have collectively gotten me to a much better overall state, pretty routinely having total deep+REM in the range of 3-3.5 hrs. The stack: policosanol (20mg) and cruciferous vegetable extract (1 cap of Life Extensions product; or actual dietary cruciferous veggies) in the evening; 20-30mg progesterone, magnesium, and CBD creams (all topical) at bedtime. Also see Stasha Gominak (MD) on youtube (any of her long-form interviews or talks) re: depletion/rebalancing of B-5 (--> B-complex) levels against serum vit D levels for deep and REM sleep. I did her 100mg-B-complex repletion protocol for a couple months, then backed off (as per the protocol). I've also noticed another increment of restfulness since I started doing BFR (blood-flow restriction) training ~4 days/wk over the last month. Don't want to jinx it, but I just had my first >4hr deep+REM last night in the 8 mos I've been tracking. (Yesterday was a rest day; for me, there's a one-day lag between a BFR session and excellent sleep.)
thanks man, I'll investigate that protocol.
 
OP
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faxmulder

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Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
151
Histamine is a wake-promoting substance, so blocking it can cause sedation and better sleep. Depending on the drug that you used and its half-life, perhaps if you took it in the morning it might cause a rebound (or receptors became more sensitized) before bed and disrupt sleep.
Bacopa and cordyceps can act as adaptogens. B6 is necessary for GABA synthesis. B vitamins in general are needed for energy production. Folate and B12 can boost methylation to enhance the breakdown of dopamine, noradrenaline and histamine which can help with sleep. Q10 helps with energy production, which can then help improve sleep.

But I'd say body temps and thyroid are the biggest things that can help sleep. If your body takes forever to heat up, you won't be able to get deep sleep. If it takes you 4 hours, then you'll be in light sleep for 4 hours. If you never reach optimal temps, then you'll most likely get little to no deep sleep. This has happened to me a lot when I was hypometabolic and that's why aspirin with carbs before bed helped me sleep better. A little bit of thyroid before bed is also great for sleep for me.
So for body temps, aspirin, carbs, progesterone and thyroid.
thanks man. So is there some sense if I seem to sleep better (i.e. have more deep slepp and less REM) on the nights I took Ibuprofen before sleep?
 
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faxmulder

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Do you wake up during the night?
not really wake up. I'm dreaming a lot and sometimes I have a lot of "micro wake ups" (I don't know how to call them) that last a few seconds, so my sleep it's very disturbed
 

Hans

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thanks man. So is there some sense if I seem to sleep better (i.e. have more deep slepp and less REM) on the nights I took Ibuprofen before sleep?
Inflammation in general can disrupt sleep. I'd rather use aspirin, since Ibuprofen has side effects.
 

IT'S OVER

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But I'd say body temps and thyroid are the biggest things that can help sleep. If your body takes forever to heat up, you won't be able to get deep sleep. If it takes you 4 hours, then you'll be in light sleep for 4 hours. If you never reach optimal temps, then you'll most likely get little to no deep sleep. This has happened to me a lot when I was hypometabolic and that's why aspirin with carbs before bed helped me sleep better. A little bit of thyroid before bed is also great for sleep for me.
So for body temps, aspirin, carbs, progesterone and thyroid.
Hi Hans, can you tell me if you still have to take thyroid to this date to sleep and feel well?
Inflammation in general can disrupt sleep. I'd rather use aspirin, since Ibuprofen has side effects.
Iam almost sure that most of my inflammation is in the gut, could aspirin help me? Do you still think aspirin dont have side effects?
 

Hans

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Hi Hans, can you tell me if you still have to take thyroid to this date to sleep and feel well?
No I don't need it anymore. Occasionally I might try it again to see if it improves my sleep even more or not.

Iam almost sure that most of my inflammation is in the gut, could aspirin help me? Do you still think aspirin dont have side effects?
Aspirin can be a little harsh on the gut for some people. To reduce gut inflammation, I'd start by eliminating potential gut irritating foods, get lots of sunlight and make sure to be active.
 

Beastmode

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No I don't need it anymore. Occasionally I might try it again to see if it improves my sleep even more or not.


Aspirin can be a little harsh on the gut for some people. To reduce gut inflammation, I'd start by eliminating potential gut irritating foods, get lots of sunlight and make sure to be active.

This aligns with my experience so far.

No amount of aspirin has ever made up for something I was eating that caused disturbances.

I've gotten back to a tad of t3/t4 right before bed as it does add that touch of depth to my sleep. When I don't have it for a while, I really notice the speed/depth of falling asleep. Something about that feeling about falling asleep and you know it's going to be a good one.
 

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